OK, we all want to do this, so here's what I worked out to actually do it, using Feats rather than level adjustments to make the changes.
The PDF can be downloaded here, please let me know what you all think.
Well, that's why I wanted to present various options. I wouldn't follow that one either, myself, but I felt it may be required to get the balance right. Thank you for the input, though - it says to me my original instinct on it was right: that PC's of these races will be 'different' and may not have the full package of abilities, but may have others instead, but I'll see what other's also suggest and say.
Well, that's why I wanted to present various options. I wouldn't follow that one either, myself, but I felt it may be required to get the balance right. Thank you for the input, though - it says to me my original instinct on it was right: that PC's of these races will be 'different' and may not have the full package of abilities, but may have others instead, but I'll see what other's also suggest and say.
you are a genius. Think it would be appropriate for templates as well?
I like, it's not going to float everyone's boat however, but I could see some of them as realistic options in my games.
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My personal, and unsolicited idea, is to wipe out racial ability adjustments across the board, then use a higher point buy to make up for the loss. Racial abilities would have HD requirements, with more powerful or unbalancing abilities coming later, when it would be appropriate to the character. But that's an idea for another thread.
you are a genius. Think it would be appropriate for templates as well?
Thank you! I included the Herritage feats under Aasimar and Tiefling as a rough example of applying those 'templates' (Celestial and Infernal/Abyssal) to non-human creatures. So yes, it can apply to templates also - are there any you would particularly like me to go to town on?
My personal, and unsolicited idea, is to wipe out racial ability adjustments across the board, then use a higher point buy to make up for the loss. Racial abilities would have HD requirements, with more powerful or unbalancing abilities coming later, when it would be appropriate to the character. But that's an idea for another thread.
That's a neat idea - although it does require a lot more re-working of the system from the ground up. I, for one, like spending my points to get the best out of the +2 boosts from what ever race I'm picking - they make a big difference to your maximum scores, and weaning people away from that idea might well be difficult.
The system I am presenting here is easily and quickly adaptable into the game as-is; if a player wants to take a lizardfolk character mid-campaign there is no requirement to re-write the rules for them. If a player of a drow wants a drow noble, they can take the feats for it mid-game.
TriOmegaZero made a valid point in his thread on the similar subject; I do think that I may need to rework some of the feats to give them minimum levels - they really shouldn't be available (for the most part) until a character level at which the equivalent spell is available. When doing the feats I think I only set minimum levels a few times.
you are a genius. Think it would be appropriate for templates as well?Thank you! I included the Herritage feats under Aasimar and Tiefling as a rough example of applying those 'templates' (Celestial and Infernal/Abyssal) to non-human creatures. So yes, it can apply to templates also - are there any you would particularly like me to go to town on?
I played a game of D&D some time ago, where we started out at level 5. our group contained a half-dragon. Although he had a extremely high damage output for his level with his breath weapon, his defenses where lacking, especially in HP. One night we set camp in the woods. He was the only one who didn't pack a tent. The DM decided that since he was sleeping outside, instead of randomly finding who a giant constrictor would attack, it instead attacked the only one outside. It caught him while he slept, and in only 2 rounds killed his character. The player was very angry and thought he was getting picked on. He also cursed his low HP count do to the level adjustment. Honestly, that is the biggest problem with Level adjustments. With you'r idea I might be able to approach him and develop a new half dragon that would have enough HP to survive for a while. I would also like to play a vampire at level 1 terrorizing some local farmers for a while. I'll see what ideas I can come up with and share them here.
I played a game of D&D some time ago, where we started out at level 5. our group contained a half-dragon. Although he had a extremely high damage output for his level with his breath weapon, his defenses where lacking, especially in HP. One night we set camp in the woods. He was the only one who didn't pack a tent. The DM decided that since he was sleeping outside, instead of randomly finding who a giant constrictor would attack, it instead attacked the only one outside. It caught him while he slept, and in only 2 rounds killed his character. The player was very angry and thought he was getting picked on. He also cursed his low HP count do to the level adjustment. Honestly, that is the biggest problem with Level adjustments. With you'r idea I might be able to approach him and develop a new half dragon that would have enough HP to survive for a while. I would also like to play a vampire at level 1 terrorizing some local farmers for a while. I'll see what ideas I can come up with and share them here.
I looked at the half-dragon and wasn't quite sure where to start with it. I'll review it and the other half-X creatures and see if I can convert the templates to feat sequences. Your player would likely start play as being 'slightly draconic' so to speak, but would be able to become more and more dragon-like as time passed and he accumulated feats. Watch this space and I'll post them up as I do them.
OK, the new file with the Half-Dragon included is here - I'll progress to the other Templates as and when I can.
OK, the new file with the Half-Dragon included is here - I'll progress to the other Templates as and when I can.
Thank you for creating a section for half dragons, especially so swiftly. I like how it plays out and will show it to my player.
OK, the new file with the Half-Dragon included is here - I'll progress to the other Templates as and when I can.Thank you for creating a section for half dragons, especially so swiftly. I like how it plays out and will show it to my player.
You are welcome. I am working on expanding the sections on Aasimar on Tieflings to include Celestial, Half-Celestial, Fiendish and Half-Fiendish templates. What I am often finding is that there are not enough feat slots for characters to get all of the feats, but then I think players would concentrate on feats that enhance the attributes and features they want. I'm also adding Vampires (which is a real headache) but will have the file ready when I can!
This looks like a great idea. Thank you! :)
You're welcome. For those interested here is the revised document with added feats to take the Aasimar and Tiefling to half-celestial and half-fiend, the half-dragon, the lich and the vampire.
The latter two were not easy, and are perhaps a bit rough. There's no easy way to scale in all the undead features - you are either undead, or you aren't, and being undead has some good advantages. However, by working in some disadvantages I have hopefully ensured that players are not tempted to 'dip' feats for extra power and ignore the rest. While the vampire in particular has some large bonuses to ability scores, mainly strength, they are perhaps more appealing to spell-casters as fighting classes depend more on feats which you just won't get following these paths.
The document won't open for me for some reason. I like some of your applications, but I think a couple run on a bit too much.
The document won't open for me for some reason. I like some of your applications, but I think a couple run on a bit too much.
I just tried it and it worked OK for me, but Mediafire is sometimes quirky. The raw link is: http://www.mediafire.com/file/hrmtgmnyayd/Monster_Classes_Revised.pdf
If that doesn't work let me know and I'll re-upload it.
I know some run on - problem for me is there is only so much I can justify running together abilities into feats. I don't want to leave any out, but at the same time I don't want to render some races overpowered. For example, the vampire has so blasted many abilities, you have to use a lot of feats to become a fully-fledged vampire. However, it is possible to do it with just five feats, which a human could manage at 7th level. You'd have enough to have the feel of a vampire, and in fact you certainly wouldn't have all of the weaknesses of one making them far more playable.
Things like the vampire and the lich really push the limit of the system all right - it works well for lizard men and plane-touched, passably for half-dragons and the like, it starts to stretch at vampires ... on the other hand, I still think the fundamental idea is still better than level adjustments.
I really like what you've done with the vampire and the lich, but I'd allow the phylactery to grant the Pierce the Veil feat automatically and make all the other feats spring off that. There has to be both a reason and a a benefit for crafting a 120,000 gp item after all!
Why do your vampire stat feats not stack on racial modifiers? An Elven vampire should be more dextrous than a human vampire for instance. Similarly, your half-outsider feats also penalise races with racial stat mods, which seems unfair.
I really like what you've done with the vampire and the lich, but I'd allow the phylactery to grant the Pierce the Veil feat automatically and make all the other feats spring off that. There has to be both a reason and a a benefit for crafting a 120,000 gp item after all!
Why do your vampire stat feats not stack on racial modifiers? An Elven vampire should be more dextrous than a human vampire for instance. Similarly, your half-outsider feats also penalise races with racial stat mods, which seems unfair.
That's the standard I have tried to adopt for all my feat-based adjustments you could apply at first or otherwise low level. Why? well basically I don't think it's a good idea to start with a primary stat of 22, which is what it could be used to do.
I don't think it's undue penalising, because in the case of the Once Bitten feat you are getting a boost to three stats for a penalty in one, and in the cases of the others it's one less feat you need to take.
That was my thinking, anyway. If people still feel this is unduely harsh, then I can amend it so that these stack - but be prepared for some absolutely insane ability scores.
The point-cost of actually having an 18 is highly prohibitive now. Just getting one 16 is half your points, if you play a standard 20-pt build, let alone an 18.
The point-cost of actually having an 18 is highly prohibitive now. Just getting one 16 is half your points, if you play a standard 20-pt build, let alone an 18.
True, you have a point there. If the DM isn't happy with what he sees he can always over-rule it. I'll amend the feats now, and hopefully post up an edit with in the hour.
Please give some love for the lich's phylactery, such as the Pierce the Veil as a bonus. I don't want to have to spend 100K+ and then still have to spend a feat to actually use my magic item. You may also wish tonote that if your permanent Con is reduced to 0, you automatically die and become undead.
I really like what you've done so far. Maybe I can see about doing a quick compatible vampire PrC for you :)
Okies, that took a while!
But here is the result, revised somewhat and with the lich given some love. With both the lich and the vampire they gain huge advantages for being undead. I wanted to introduce a 'danger zone' where they had some of the advantages of their impending state but were still vulnerable to destruction before they gained everything - basically, something to make the player think twice.
I hope I succeeded in that. The lich gets their undead state right away ... but they don't get the rejuvenation power for some time yet, making them vulnerable to destruction. Vampires get a declining constitution score to contend with as they try to gain the feats that will ensure they return after death. Even if they do, they begin as a weak vampire and are still easy to kill.
Vampire Paragon (in the theme of Unearthed Arcana's PrCs)
Medium BAB. (As per undead type)
Good saves: Reflex & Will. (Undead get Will; Reflex is to make up for no Lightning Reflexes)
Class skills (4 ranks per level): Bluff, Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana & Religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Stealth.
Weapons/Armour: Proficient with simple and natural weapons, but not with any armour or shield. (As per undead type)
Requirements: Must be a living humanoid or monstrous humanoid, who possesses the Once Bitten feat and does not possess the Vampire's Kiss feat.
1st: Fangs, Dodge
2nd: Infiltrator
3rd: Sharp Fangs, Toughness
4th: Born Liar
5th: Savage Fangs, Improved Initiative
6th: Undead Apotheosis, Vampire's Kiss
Fangs: At 1st-level, the vampire paragon gains a natural bite attack, dealing 1d3 lethal damage (Small: 1d2, Large: 1d4). This is the character's primary attack form and can be used whilst grappling at no additional penalty.
Dodge: At 1st-level, the character gains Dodge as a bonus feat. If they already have this feat, they gain another vampiric feat (except Vampire's Kiss) instead.
Infiltrator: At 2nd-level, the character becomes skilled at both hiding and finding those who are hiding from them and they gain a +2 bonus to all Perception and Stealth checks.
Sharp Fangs: At 3rd-level, the character's bite attack increases to 1d4 damage (Small: 1d3, Large: 1d6).
Toughness: At 3rd-level, the character gains Toughness as a bonus feat. If they already have this feat, they gain another vampiric feat (except Vampire's Kiss) instead.
Born Liar: At 4th-level, rhe character becomes both good at lying and spotting when others are lying to them. They gain a +2 bonus to all Bluff & Sense Motive checks.
Savage Fangs: At 5th-level, the character's bite attack increases to 1d6 damage (Small: 1d4, Large: 1d8).
Improved Initiative: At 5th-level, the character gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. If they already have this feat, they gain another vampiric feat (except Vampire's Kiss) instead.
Undead Apotheosis: At 6th-level, the character is driven to prepare a coffin and then sleep in it for the first time. The character dies in their sleep and awakens at dusk with the undead type (and all that entails), if they have not had their First Death already. The character also gains a +2 bonus to their DC of their Dominate ability (if possessed).
Vampire's Kiss: The character finally gains the ability to drain their victim's blood (by grappling with their bite attack) and gains the Vampire's Kiss feat.
Hey I like that! It gives some of the vampiric feats without having to blow all your feat slots on them, or else allows you to fast-track it. A question, though: Will this class allow you to gain caster levels (I would suggest one every other level)? A lot of vampires seem to be casters. Also, I am guessing hit die = d8?
Thank you, sir :) I'd suggest at 2nd and 4th only (or also at 6th, if you're feeling generous). Hit Dice is definitely supposed to be d8s. I wrote it with presupposition that their bite attacks delivers their blood drain and that they don't gain a slam attack, but please feel free to include it in your PDF!
Minor spelling query, but I'd call the skeletal lich feat Skeletalisation, as it fits the adjective better than it does the noun.
For Daylight Torpor, they can apparently only make partial actions. That went out with 3.0, so I'd suggest saying only one standard or one move action per round, as per the Staggered special quality.
I'll make a few more adjustments to the feats shortly. In the meantime, I played around with your class a little ... here's what I made of it, I hope you like, if not, let me know what you'd change.
I'll let you know as soon as I get back from work :)
You've extended it, I see :P Perhaps you should put something special in at level 10 to reward them for sticking with the class. I'm curious to know why you moved Savage Fangs to 7th.
You've named the PDF "The Vampire Aherent" (no D), called the PrC "Vampire Adherent" and then left "vampire paragon" throughout. I would use a semicolon, rather than a comma, to separate the two clauses in the required feats line.
You have removed Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft from a class that now grants bonus spell-casting levels. You may wish to consider the Fly skill too. You haven't specified whether you must actually meet the requirements of the bonus feats before selecting them. You should probably also specify that the character must be a living, corporeal humanoid or monstrous humanoid.
Adding the spell-casting is perfectly fine by me, but I think that you're over-egging the cake by giving away Spell Focus (Necromancy), especially at such a low level. Perhaps that could instead be the 10th-level "loyalty bonus".
You've extended it, I see :P Perhaps you should put something special in at level 10 to reward them for sticking with the class. I'm curious to know why you moved Savage Fangs to 7th.
You've named the PDF "The Vampire Aherent" (no D), called the PrC "Vampire Adherent" and then left "vampire paragon" throughout. I would use a semicolon, rather than a comma, to separate the two clauses in the required feats line.
You have removed Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft from a class that now grants bonus spell-casting levels. You may wish to consider the Fly skill too. You haven't specified whether you must actually meet the requirements of the bonus feats before selecting them. You should probably also specify that the character must be a living, corporeal humanoid or monstrous humanoid.
Adding the spell-casting is perfectly fine by me, but I think that you're over-egging the cake by giving away Spell Focus (Necromancy), especially at such a low level. Perhaps that could instead be the 10th-level "loyalty bonus".
Noted! I knew you'd spot my errors, I'll do some more work on that one.
Rats. You've rumbled me! You've got a proofreader working during his home time too :)
I salute you. I've been working with serious Templates for years, and although I came to think of Feats as a response I decided not to. BUt I do have a hard time dividing abilities powers.
This is a nice way to do this and it looks pretty balanced, congratulations.
I'm trying to work on a "cost" table for abilities in general, but I still use the ECL system for it, I divide each level in 10 and that's a point buy basis for abilities. DR and Fast Healing cost 3 for example, while Ability score increases cost 1 but has a maximum if for the same Score and so on, and so forth.
If someone could shed any light on it I would apreciate it, thanks for the wonderful job.
Hello Xum.
My method was a kind of combination of intuition and work from Savage Species and other guidelines. The thing about racial bonuses is that first off, a player may not want all of them, and secondly they are less useful as levels increase. Special abilities, like flight, are amazingly useful at low level, but at mid to high level they are less useful.
To work out what should go into a feat, I looked at all of the special features of the race and grouped some lesser ones together in some cases. For example, the Aasimar's daylight ability is actually quite strong, so I broke it down into a light special ability so that they could keep their attribute bonuses at first level - you will see the Aasimar has less first level abilities than any other character race from the core rulebook. I then added daylight back in as a feat. I could have made it restricted to 5th level, but decided that burning a feat for it was enough - it's powerful, but not that useful that often.
Where there were a lot of abilities, I made some scale dependent on the number of feats possessed instead, to give additional benefits to the feats as level rose. I tried to keep a +2 attribute bonus the most that would be ascribed to a feat - in some cases, this was not possible, particularly the vampire. I could just see vampiric feats being dipped just for some bonuses and then left, so I added the Descent feature and the weaknesses. Unless you are really into role-playing a descent into horror, or are going all the way to become a vampire, it's not worth dipping.
To work out what level a feat is appropriate for, I looked at what equivalent spell levels were and scaled from there. Ultimately, it came down top a certain amount of guesswork, mentally summing up what PC's might do with the feats and working from there. Will a troglodyte PC take Troglodyte Musk? It's a powerful ability but it doesn't distinguish friend from foe, so probably not and if they do, they won't use it much.
I'm glad you like the basic concept. For me, it beats the old system, and I admit I was largely inspired by the Warforged and Shifters from the 3.5 Eberron setting. You get to be what you want from level one, you have some neat feats to take that confer real advantages, but you don't need to take them.
OK, slightly amended and corrected version of the Monster Classes PDF and amended version of The Vampire Adherent.
Feedback and proof-reading welcome, of course.
Neither of them are PDFs, of course :)
For the Adherent, why Linguistics? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not seeing the connection between a vampire and a gift for languages.
Sorry, I seem to be plagued with misshaps - I accidentally uploaded the Documents not the PDFs.
Here is The_Vampire_Adherent PDF and the Monster_Classes_2.2 PDF.