Question about the Luck Domain 1st level Power

[Abraxas]

The Luck domain power "Bit of Luck" says the following; "For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result."

Does the benefit of the power apply to a single roll or all rolls made in the round?

[Kvantum]

Abraxas wrote:

The Luck domain power "Bit of Luck" says the following; "For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result."

Does the benefit of the power apply to a single roll or all rolls made in the round?

Well, given that the wording is "any time" and not "the next time" I would have to think it's all such rolls made before the Cleric's next turn.

[Abraxas]

Kvantum wrote:

Well, given that the wording is "any time" and not "the next time" I would have to think it's all such rolls made before the Cleric's next turn.

Doesn't that seem a little strong?

[LordGriffin]

Abraxas wrote:

Kvantum wrote:

Well, given that the wording is "any time" and not "the next time" I would have to think it's all such rolls made before the Cleric's next turn.

Doesn't that seem a little strong?

I agree, it does seem a little strong. However, you ARE giving up your standard action. You're sacrificing any attacks you might have made to make sure that somebody else's attacks (and/or abilities) have a better chance of hitting. It has a nice side effect of giving it's bonus to saving throws as well. All in all, it's powerful, but I don't think it's unbalancingly so. Especially with a times per day limit. (unlike Sorcerer times per days limits for abilities that mostly suck, but that's another topic).

[Delthos]

Abraxas wrote:

Kvantum wrote:

Well, given that the wording is "any time" and not "the next time" I would have to think it's all such rolls made before the Cleric's next turn.

Doesn't that seem a little strong?

Not to me. How many times is the cleric going to have to roll a d20 over the course of one round? It doesn't seem that overpowered at all.

[LordGriffin]

Delthos wrote:

Not to me. How many times is the cleric going to have to roll a d20 over the course of one round? It doesn't seem that overpowered at all.

The ability is a touch attack, and is meant to be used on other party members. Using it on yourself would do very little beyond giving you an extra saving throw, since I believe it would end at the beginning of your next turn? (not sure, actually).

[Kvantum]

LordGriffin wrote:

since I believe it would end at the beginning of your next turn? (not sure, actually).

That's how I understand it, yes.

[Abraxas]

LordGriffin wrote:

I agree, it does seem a little strong. However, you ARE giving up your standard action. You're sacrificing any attacks you might have made to make sure that somebody else's attacks (and/or abilities) have a better chance of hitting. It has a nice side effect of giving it's bonus to saving throws as well. All in all, it's powerful, but I don't think it's unbalancingly so. Especially with a times per day limit. (unlike Sorcerer times per days limits for abilities that mostly suck, but that's another topic).

Is there any information on why it was changed from the Beta version?

[LordGriffin]

Abraxas wrote:

Is there any information on why it was changed from the Beta version?

Well THAT'S fascinating! I just read the beta version. They use the wording "any time the target rolls a d20", but mentions later that "once it's used, it's gone."

Now, I KNOW that the beta version isn't exactly canon. However, it does seem to shed light on Paizo's internal logic. In other words, "any time" actually means "next time". It's badly worded, to be sure, but the intent seems to be clear.

[Abraxas]

LordGriffin wrote:

Well THAT'S fascinating! I just read the beta version. They use the wording "any time the target rolls a d20", but mentions later that "once it's used, it's gone."

Now, I KNOW that the beta version isn't exactly canon. However, it does seem to shed light on Paizo's internal logic. In other words, "any time" actually means "next time". It's badly worded, to be sure, but the intent seems to be clear.

Part of the reason for my question is that the cleric in my campaign has it and it gets used a lot. In one round it's been used by one character for multiple skill checks (Knowledge check, Acrobatics Check), multiple saving throws (vs a spell and a disease) and on an Attack + a Cleave Attack + an AoO. So for my 3rd level party I've already seen it used by 1 character on 7 rolls in one round. This will only increase as the character's BAB goes up and he gets multiple attacks or when used on the 2 weapon wielding ranger/rogue who tumbles around the battlefield.

[Maezer]

LordGriffin wrote:

Now, I KNOW that the beta version isn't exactly canon. However, it does seem to shed light on Paizo's internal logic. In other words, "any time" actually means "next time". It's badly worded, to be sure, but the intent seems to be clear.

I tend to believe the intent when they changed the text was to change the rule. They clearly had a baseline of how to make it effect only one roll, but decided not use that text.

Abraxax wrote:

This will only increase as the character's BAB goes up and he gets multiple attacks or when used on the 2 weapon wielding ranger/rogue who tumbles around the battlefield.

So does the oppertunity cost of the cleric using up a standard action. Also, its not the most powerful 1st level domain ability either unless you are just going cleric 1.

For example, Touch of Good, lasts multiple rounds and grants a greater average bonus (not as good for crit fishing though) from level 6 on.

[Trample]

Can bit of luck be used on the cleric, or does it have to be used on other party members?

[Louis IX]

LordGriffin wrote:

Well THAT'S fascinating! I just read the beta version. They use the wording "any time the target rolls a d20", but mentions later that "once it's used, it's gone."

Now, I KNOW that the beta version isn't exactly canon. However, it does seem to shed light on Paizo's internal logic. In other words, "any time" actually means "next time". It's badly worded, to be sure, but the intent seems to be clear.

Another case of RAW vs RAI. In this particular case, I'd lean towards the aforementioned interpretation.

Why? Because this lasts for the whole round.

Imagine that your buddy is a fighting machine able to attack 5 times per turn (monk level 11, melee type with TWF or Whirlwind Attack, Barbarian with the Bite power) who also happen to have Combat Reflexes and a decent Dex (for some more attacks from opportunities) and is targeted by a couple spells as well, and also has to roll some Perception checks (or some other skill)...

Giving the "bit of luck" to a dozen rolls seems too much for me.

[Caineach]

Louis IX wrote:

LordGriffin wrote:

Well THAT'S fascinating! I just read the beta version. They use the wording "any time the target rolls a d20", but mentions later that "once it's used, it's gone."

Now, I KNOW that the beta version isn't exactly canon. However, it does seem to shed light on Paizo's internal logic. In other words, "any time" actually means "next time". It's badly worded, to be sure, but the intent seems to be clear.

Another case of RAW vs RAI. In this particular case, I'd lean towards the aforementioned interpretation.

Why? Because this lasts for the whole round.

Imagine that your buddy is a fighting machine able to attack 5 times per turn (monk level 11, melee type with TWF or Whirlwind Attack, Barbarian with the Bite power) who also happen to have Combat Reflexes and a decent Dex (for some more attacks from opportunities) and is targeted by a couple spells as well, and also has to roll some Perception checks (or some other skill)...

Giving the "bit of luck" to a dozen rolls seems too much for me.

Its not RAI vs RAW. They clearly changed the RAW from a beta version that was obviously limited to any 1 roll within the next round to all rolls within the next round. This show obvious intent in the new rules to be different from the beta, and therefore you can only assume that it should affect all rolls. And no, I do not think that is overpowered.