I've noticed something. Every base class gets something really good at level 20 except for a few. Universalist Wizards get the same bonus feat they did in 3.5, Barbarians get Mighty Rage (ooooh) and Clerics get... absolutely nothing.
Look at what Specialist Wizards, Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers, Fighters... well, everyone else gets at level 20.
As an example, Paladins at level 20 get, in addition to some other perks the ability to maximize their Lay on Hands and Channel Positive Energy abilities at will. Clerics don't get that. So Paladins end up being better at channeling positive energy than the Clerics? What is up with that?
At the -very- least, I feel a 20th level Cleric should have his Channel Positive Energy maximized. How do you guys feel?
I feel they get more then enough, well more then enough. I feel the nerf bat should have hit. Not the power boost they got. They do not need something else
4 domains powers, 10d6 channel at lest 3/day, no arcane spell failure, good weapons, d8, pretty good BAB, good armor, open spell list, free domain spells
Hell no they need nothing else
It is pure opinion, but I feel they are already the best, most versatile class in the game. I also think capstone powers are for villains primarily, although you're right, they don't get one. If I were GMing for PCs of that level (which I never do) and I had a player who wanted a capstone power, I should think it ought to be derived from the deity or domains... there definitely can't be a one-size-fits-all capstone power for clerics.
But seriously, what do you give to the character who can cast Miracle?
I feel they get more then enough, well more then enough. I feel the nerf bat should have hit, and hit hard.
And it has.
Two big hits.
Not enough for what they gained, channel is a huge boost, very useful. Tis nice to be able to heal and get to cast some spells however.
But still they are a bit much.
Anyhow the spells were overpowered and pretty much the poster children for broken.
Not enough for what they gained, channel is a huge boost, very useful. Tis nice to be able to heal and get to cast some spells however.
But still they are a bit much.
Anyhow the spells were overpowered and pretty much the poster children for broken.
In terms of a pc, channel isnt a cleric boost, its a boost to everyone else. The cleric is better able to heal them. I think that may be one of the best changes pathfinder made. Now if someone is playing a 'battle cleric' they dont have to be selfish about healing. They can still help out the party while using their spells for buffs and debuffs.
I don't disagree it's nice, but I do not agree that the class needs anything more. As is they are very well rounded.
But seriously, what do you give to the character who can cast Miracle?
Well, Wizards can cast Wish... and they got some pretty spiffy level 20 goodies.
Seriously, Clerics are no more powerful than Wizards, and Wizards get extra stuff at 20.
I don't believe a Paladin should be better at channeling positive energy than a Cleric. My opinion at least.
It just seems to me that many of the classes got something really goos at 20 and the Clerics got shafted... especially since (in our games at least), the Cleric usually ends up having to spend her action every round channeling positive energy or casting cure spells to keep the party alive. There's a reason no one in our group ever wants to play the Cleric.
Giving the level 20 Cleric the same maximized CPE as the Paladin is just throwing them a well needed bone imo.
The channel did not match up for the cap. if ya wanna play this game wizards gain spells and something at 5/8/10/15 and 20
cleric get something at3/5/7/8/9/11/13/15/17/19
Yeah very uneven there
I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that because a Cleric gets an extra D6 of CPE every other level it makes up for not getting a special power at level 20?
Or are you suggesting that Wizards don't get new spell levels every other level? They do.
Wizards are just as versatile as Clerics and aren't bothered by the "I must spend my action to heal my injured comrades" problem, yet they get all kinds of extra crap as they level, as well as a nifty special power at level 20.
I agree with Seekerofshadowlight that Clerics are all kinds of awesome already.
That said, I'm not sure 20th level capstone abilities are much more than flavoring. How many campaigns are getting to 20th level? How many are staying there for a significant length of time?
Giving the Cleric a capstone wouldn't break them any more I don't think.
If you want a houserule where they get a capstone, by all means the maxed channel would work.
If you want a balanced solution, then simply delay their recieving of 9th level spells until 20th level. That's an awesome capstone!
I agree with Seekerofshadowlight that Clerics are all kinds of awesome already.
Oh I agree they are awesome.... but no more awesome than Wizards, which is my point.
That said, I'm not sure 20th level capstone abilities are much more than flavoring. How many campaigns are getting to 20th level? How many are staying there for a significant length of time?
To be honest, my group is about to start a game where we all start at level 20.... which is why I wanted to get your feedback on this.
Giving the Cleric a capstone wouldn't break them any more I don't think.
If you want a houserule where they get a capstone, by all means the maxed channel would work.
That's probably the route we'll go, but I wanted to know why the Cleric seemed to have gotten left out officially.
If you want a balanced solution, then simply delay their recieving of 9th level spells until 20th level. That's an awesome capstone!
Ouch. O.O
If you want a balanced solution, then simply delay their recieving of 9th level spells until 20th level. That's an awesome capstone!Ouch. O.O
Think that's bad? In 2nd edition, divine casters didn't even get 8th level spells, let alone 9th. Clerics and Druids were capped at 7th level spells. This is one of the reasons that Clerics and Druids have really cruddy core 7th-9th level lists (they had to spread out 1 level of spells in 2nd edition across 3 levels of spells in 3rd, and had to mess with the numbers of the 8th and 9th level spells to make them 'fit' in those slots).
But seriously, what do you give to the character who can cast Miracle?
Everything he asks you for!
Well, Wizards can cast Wish
But seriously, what do you give to the character who can cast Miracle?
...until he runs out of coin.
Doesn't Miracle have the same material cost?
Think that's bad? In 2nd edition, divine casters didn't even get 8th level spells, let alone 9th. Clerics and Druids were capped at 7th level spells. This is one of the reasons that Clerics and Druids have really cruddy core 7th-9th level listsIf you want a balanced solution, then simply delay their recieving of 9th level spells until 20th level. That's an awesome capstone!Ouch. O.O
I'm not sure they're that bad.
Cleric 8 has Fire Storm (the gift that keeps on giving - fail that save and you burn until you blow an action rolling in the dirt), Dimensional Lock (No one gets in, no one gets out), and of course Greater Spell Immunity (If you know even a little bit about that enemy, this one is huge)
Cleric 9 has Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels hurt like nothing else), Mass heal (you're back in business - and so is everyone you fight with), Miracle (seriously, this is THE spell). True Resurrection is nice, too, and Storm of Vengeance can take apart whole armies (you start with deafening lots of people, which is really bad in an army. Then, everyone will be softened up a bit. A round later, you go for some leaders with lightning, and then it's hurt time - 5d6 for everyone, no save!)
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Think that's bad? In 2nd edition, divine casters didn't even get 8th level spells, let alone 9th. Clerics and Druids were capped at 7th level spells. This is one of the reasons that Clerics and Druids have really cruddy core 7th-9th level listsIf you want a balanced solution, then simply delay their recieving of 9th level spells until 20th level. That's an awesome capstone!Ouch. O.OI'm not sure they're that bad.
Cleric 8 has Fire Storm (the gift that keeps on giving - fail that save and you burn until you blow an action rolling in the dirt), Dimensional Lock (No one gets in, no one gets out), and of course Greater Spell Immunity (If you know even a little bit about that enemy, this one is huge)
Cleric 9 has Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels hurt like nothing else), Mass heal (you're back in business - and so is everyone you fight with), Miracle (seriously, this is THE spell). True Resurrection is nice, too, and Storm of Vengeance can take apart whole armies (you start with deafening lots of people, which is really bad in an army. Then, everyone will be softened up a bit. A round later, you go for some leaders with lightning, and then it's hurt time - 5d6 for everyone, no save!)
Miracle and Storm of Vengance FTW.
Doesn't Miracle have the same material cost?
Only if you go beyond the "standard effects".
The following can be done free of charge:
Only if you move into the realm of the truly miraculous you will have to pay 25000gp in powdered diamond. But a wizard wishing for a magic missile? That will be 25000gp worth of diamond dust, please!
Think that's bad? In 2nd edition, divine casters didn't even get 8th level spells, let alone 9th. Clerics and Druids were capped at 7th level spells. This is one of the reasons that Clerics and Druids have really cruddy core 7th-9th level listsIf you want a balanced solution, then simply delay their recieving of 9th level spells until 20th level. That's an awesome capstone!Ouch. O.OI'm not sure they're that bad.
Cleric 8 has Fire Storm (the gift that keeps on giving - fail that save and you burn until you blow an action rolling in the dirt), Dimensional Lock (No one gets in, no one gets out), and of course Greater Spell Immunity (If you know even a little bit about that enemy, this one is huge)
Cleric 9 has Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels hurt like nothing else), Mass heal (you're back in business - and so is everyone you fight with), Miracle (seriously, this is THE spell). True Resurrection is nice, too, and Storm of Vengeance can take apart whole armies (you start with deafening lots of people, which is really bad in an army. Then, everyone will be softened up a bit. A round later, you go for some leaders with lightning, and then it's hurt time - 5d6 for everyone, no save!)
Yes, there are about a half-dozen viable choices in the final three spell levels for Clerics and Druids, although storm of vengeance is not very good. A simple control winds does a far better job of destroying an army by creating a 40 foot radius per level tornado that lasts 10 minutes per level. By the time you could cast storm of vengeance to deal a grand total of 6d6 damage (plus the lightning bolts) over a 720 foot diameter area, you could cast a control winds that creates a tornado 1,360 feet wide that deals 6d6 damage per round and lasts for almost three hours. Nothing is going to survive a 3 hour, 1/4 mile wide tornado (except the Tarrasque, of course, but he's special).
Clerics happen to be my favorite class and I think they get enough as is. If you find them somewhat lacking in your game (and I dont know how you could) then there is nothing wrong with you giving them some kind of cool power at 20 like alignment based DR or a godly/philosophical gift. Its your game after all, Im not going to tell you how to run it
I still think Clerics get too much love, any other caster has a hard time measuring up to the cleric's spell selection, number of spells and spell knowledge.
The cleric package is just too complete compared to a wizard who gets the worst of everything aside from fancy spells.
I think medium armor could have been stripped from them as well, I don't see the need for good fortitude saves either.
A capstone would be nice for the sake of not being left out though, how about spontaneous domain casting for one domain ?
You could give them a free spell-like ability once a day depending on their domains. The alignments and elements could get Summon Planar Allies restricted to things that fit that type, and have it be for a day or 12 hours or whatever, War you could cast Heroism on all allies in a 500 foot area once a day, Community you could choose to radiate Calm Emotions or a similar charm effect constantly, etc.
These are just little diamond studs on the beat stick of how awesome the cleric is, though. I have no idea why so few people want to be the cleric.
Then again, I'm obviously gonzo because I like the idea of the druid, so...
Yes, there are about a half-dozen viable choices in the final three spell levels for Clerics and Druids, although storm of vengeance is not very good. A simple control winds does a far better job of destroying an army by creating a 40 foot radius per level tornado that lasts 10 minutes per level. By the time you could cast storm of vengeance to deal a grand total of 6d6 damage (plus the lightning bolts) over a 720 foot diameter area, you could cast a control winds that creates a tornado 1,360 feet wide that deals 6d6 damage per round and lasts for almost three hours. Nothing is going to survive a 3 hour, 1/4 mile wide tornado (except the...Think that's bad? In 2nd edition, divine casters didn't even get 8th level spells, let alone 9th. Clerics and Druids were capped at 7th level spells. This is one of the reasons that Clerics and Druids have really cruddy core 7th-9th level listsIf you want a balanced solution, then simply delay their recieving of 9th level spells until 20th level. That's an awesome capstone!Ouch. O.OI'm not sure they're that bad.
Cleric 8 has Fire Storm (the gift that keeps on giving - fail that save and you burn until you blow an action rolling in the dirt), Dimensional Lock (No one gets in, no one gets out), and of course Greater Spell Immunity (If you know even a little bit about that enemy, this one is huge)
Cleric 9 has Energy Drain (2d4 negative levels hurt like nothing else), Mass heal (you're back in business - and so is everyone you fight with), Miracle (seriously, this is THE spell). True Resurrection is nice, too, and Storm of Vengeance can take apart whole armies (you start with deafening lots of people, which is really bad in an army. Then, everyone will be softened up a bit. A round later, you go for some leaders with lightning, and then it's hurt time - 5d6 for everyone, no save!)
Sorry about the double post, but I have a story to tell about my 20th level character in 3.5 who cast control winds. Basically, my character concept was that I was a stormlord (Because I love the idea of the prestige class and being a giant animal/elemental just wasn't as cool) who was fairly selfish and also happened to be kinda lizardy due to some weird adventuring stuff that had happened. Well, this kingdom we're in is attacked by forces of darkness. I quicken a control winds spell and create 8 tornadoes that completely destroy the enemy army. I was definitely the most powerful member of the party, and we had a wizard, for crying out loud.
Oh, and one of the tornadoes sucked in a Silver Dragon who came to help us after he rolled a 1 on his constitution check.
The best part is, a whole bunch of townspeople died at the same time, and I wished them back with a carefully worded wish... Reincarnated them, to be specific.
Clerics as good PC's are fine
we are finding evil NPC clerics just spread panic and fear with their 30ft radius channel, and in our evil-PC campaign called 'Wrathfinder' the evil PC cleric is just awesome
Ok, maybe they should have got something 'nice' at level 20 just t round stuff off.
I still think Clerics get too much love, any other caster has a hard time measuring up to the cleric's spell selection, number of spells and spell knowledge.
The number of spells is no different from a specialist wizard (who can decide which domain spell he uses in that extra slot) or druid without animal companion.
The spell selection is nice, but in many areas, wizard spells are still a lot better.
Knowing all the spells is nice, but the wizard can get pretty close with a decent selection of automatic spells and a few careful additions via transcribed scrolls or looted spell books.
The cleric package is just too complete compared to a wizard who gets the worst of everything aside from fancy spells.
They don't need anything except fancy spells. With those fancy spells, they can render their lack of hit points and armour irrelevant, and if you blast enemies to cinders, you need no stinking mundane weapons, either.
And you forget one thing: Wizards get the attribute focus a cleric lacks! Wizards need intelligence, with maybe a bit of Con and Dex (not that much, really) and maybe Wis for the saves. They can usually get away with getting a really high Int score and only decent Dex and Con scores.
Clerics, whose spell selection is a lot about powering them up for a fight, need better Con to have enough HP to survive the mêlée, they need decent Str to make the most of their offensive buff spells, and low Dex isn't really an option any more unless you buy the heavy armour proficiency with a feat. And of course, you need high Wis for your spells, and a half-decent Cha for channeling is welcome, too.
Of course, they can focus on direct attack spells only (not entering mêlée) or otherwise just buffing themselves and never casting spells on enemies, and they can ignore channel, too, but in those cases they lose out on power as the class gives you a mix of abilities.
All that means that the wizard will have a better intelligence score (unless the cleric ignores a large portion of his abilities and goes all-in on Wis), meaning more spells and better save DCs.
I think medium armor could have been stripped from them as well, I don't see the need for good fortitude saves either.
You don't see the cleric, then. Clerics aren't divine mages. Clerics are warrior-priests. They wade into the fight with divine might strengthening their strikes. Divine wizard style clerics might be possible, but they're not the only possibility, and they're not the usual choice for Pathfinder clerics.
The cleric package is just too complete compared to a wizard who gets the worst of everything aside from fancy spells.
You are undervaluing the spells.
Wizards can do more things with spells than Clerics - this is a massive advantage of one over the other.
In Pathfinder (and all D&D products 3.5 and earlier) spells are the most powerful thing a character can have, and none get a more powerful/versatile spell list than the wizard/sorcerer selection.
That said, Clerics and Druids still get some excellent spells, but they are not on the same plane spell-wise as a Wizard or Sorcerer - so they need some other goodies to even things out. This is where things like a good Fort save, armor use, better HP, etc come in.
Looking at spell lists I do not think the cleric's spells are any worse than the wizards, many spells appear on both lists and some of those are lower level for the cleric, also the more sourcebooks a group uses the more powerful a cleric becomes by default his spellbook and repetoire just gets better and better.
I can see the cleric is supposed to be a warrior priest, I am just saying such a character is unnecasary with those abilities.
My point is not every priest should be a warrior and primary spellcaster rolled in one, you have mages and fighter - mages, why not make the same distinction with priests.
Would you honestly say if a priest got stuck with light armor proficiency and just good will saves it would be any less than a wizard ?
Looking at spell lists I do not think the cleric's spells are any worse than the wizards,
I've spent a great deal of time assessing spell lists, and I definitely disagree with you. When it comes to buffing (others), battlefield control and debuffing - the strengths of the Wizard spell list, the Cleric is worse at all 3.
This is replaced by offensive self buffs (only worthwhile to a martial capable caster) and healing. There are some alternate mediocre blasts, and that's really about it.
There are a few standouts - such as freedom of movement, but these are few and far between. Most of the Cleric-only spells that aren't offensive self buffs or healing can be duplicated or improved upon by equal or lower level wizard spells.
many spells appear on both lists
Yes, but most of the good ones do not.
and some of those are lower level for the cleric,
Yes, but not the best ones.
also the more sourcebooks a group uses the more powerful a cleric becomes by default his spellbook and repetoire just gets better and better.
As do all casters. How does this improve the Cleric vs. a Wizard for example?
Take a look at Spell Compendium for example - all casters benefit from this book - but are you suggesting that Clerics make out better than Wizards by its inclusion? As in the PHB - the best spells in that book are Wizard spells.
How about the PHB II spell list? *ahem...cough...celerity..cough*
My point is not every priest should be a warrior and primary spellcaster rolled in one, you have mages and fighter - mages, why not make the same distinction with priests.
I agree with you wholeheartedly in this one. See my "Wild Mystic" Druid guide.
However, the priest who concentrates on spellcasting is not as good at spellcasting as a Wizard. There are other advantages they get to make up for the gap.
Not to suggest a Cleric without armor who pretends to be a divine wizard is a bad character.
I'm just pointing out that he won't be as good as an arcane wizard at spellcasting do to the inferior spell list.
Would you honestly say if a priest got stuck with light armor proficiency and just good will saves it would be any less than a wizard ?
Oh yes. Less than a Wizard, less than a sorcerer, less than a druid.
Why start at 20th level? What's the fun in that?
Why start at 20th level? What's the fun in that?
There's a story-time thread over on the ENWorld forums that is about a DM running an epic level game. Gameplay on the level of going down into the hells to kick out a demon-god, then save a planet that it tries to eat after it's roaming around, and then stick around so the druid can teach the fledgling goddess of nature how to run things.
Epic level spells that can be crafted, sacrificing magic items (or cultist followers!) to power it up to world affecting levels.
Ultimately, it's just about changing the scope of the story. Some people like playing the green hero thrust into an epic adventure where he has to learn fast... while others like wire-fu or high magic intrigue, and still others like world shaping events occurring on a constant basis.
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Regarding an end-cap ability for the Cleric. Wasn't there a suggestion back in Beta to give him similar effects like the Monk end-cap? Basically, make him an avatar of his god, a native outsider with some aligned abilities?
That would be the most thematically appropriate ability I think, without empowering them too much overall (at that level anyways).
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Ok this might be a little long. I am the "cleric" in the game Dork Lord is referring to.
Most of the things the cleric gets are remnants of 3.5, the only things Pathfinder gave to clerics was channel energy and the alteration of domain powers. If you channel positive energy to heal it usually HEALS THE BAD GUYS TOO unless of course you take the feat which lets you pick a number of them to exclude equal to CHA mod. Not to mention with the addition of channel energy they lowered the spells per day quota. And, already mentioned taken away the heavy armor proficiency. They also completely overhauled the way clerics handle undead (for good or bad I can't say, but it is still very different).
The feats for boosting the one great thing Pathfinder did give clerics is also left out of the "Special" catgory as per the feat desctiptions. All of the feats designed to give "Extra" uses of class abilities has the tagline of Special: You can gain Extra _____ (fill in the blank here) multiple times. Its effects stack. The feat granting Extra Channel does not have this tagline. Another note on feats mentioned briefly above if you want to heal party members without healing the bad guys too you have to take a feat. If you want to turn undead you have to take a feat, and if you turn them you have no option to deal them damage either. It is one or the other.
For those of you who think the bread and butter of the cleric is the spell list here is the rub. If you need to heal your party with either channel energy or with a cure spell (usually spontaneously converted) you can't do ANYTHING else. If you have to spend your rounds healing (i.e. std action), then healing is all you can do (as you only get 1 std action per round) and nothing else in the class is of any use. If you do anything else with the rounds the party suffers usually in PC death. Therefore this severely limits the use of spells for non combat situations.
As an afterthougth taking away the heavy armor proficiency has the potential to hamper the cleric's ability to fill the back-up fighter roll if ever needed. It also makes the cleric less able to take hits if the bad guys target them so as to nulify the groups healer.
Looking at spell lists I do not think the cleric's spells are any worse than the wizards, many spells appear on both lists and some of those are lower level for the cleric, also the more sourcebooks a group uses the more powerful a cleric becomes by default his spellbook and repetoire just gets better and better.
I can see the cleric is supposed to be a warrior priest, I am just saying such a character is unnecasary with those abilities.
My point is not every priest should be a warrior and primary spellcaster rolled in one, you have mages and fighter - mages, why not make the same distinction with priests.Would you honestly say if a priest got stuck with light armor proficiency and just good will saves it would be any less than a wizard ?
What spell selection do wizards in your games normally use?
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I don't think that they need a buff per se, but I kind of do agree with the OP - some Pathfinder classes get a capstone, some don't. In case of casters this is offset by the very fact that they can do crazy stuff via lvl 9 spells anyway, but still ... I think that every class should have some perk for hitting the Big 20.
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There's always the Cloistered Cleric variant form UA for those who don't like the "breastplate + shield + morningstar" Cleric.
Between the Cleric changes and Paladin buffs I think we have the distance between "divine caster who fights" and "divine fighter who casts" covered nicely. I really disliked the small conceptual space between Clr and Pal in 3.5.
What spell selection do wizards in your games normally use?Looking at spell lists I do not think the cleric's spells are any worse than the wizards, many spells appear on both lists and some of those are lower level for the cleric, also the more sourcebooks a group uses the more powerful a cleric becomes by default his spellbook and repetoire just gets better and better.
I can see the cleric is supposed to be a warrior priest, I am just saying such a character is unnecasary with those abilities.
My point is not every priest should be a warrior and primary spellcaster rolled in one, you have mages and fighter - mages, why not make the same distinction with priests.Would you honestly say if a priest got stuck with light armor proficiency and just good will saves it would be any less than a wizard ?
the usual spells that are awesome most of the time I suppose ;)
a few spells I changed, haste being a prime example, since I believe it far exceeds the powerlevel of other spells. not many spells have the same impact as this one, I limited it to one creature. I consider making a higher level mass version though.vampiric touch, otiluke's resilient sphere, magic missile, shield, mage armor, grease, dispel magic, false life, summons, dimension door, black tentacles, enervation, fireball.. sometimes.. that is what I can think of on a short notice. might miss a few important ones ^^
Wizards are better casters basically, though they get some hefty penalties in comparison and I feel like a cleric that is already caster / warrior rolled into one challenges the wizard's dominion a bit too much.
Generally unrestricted access to every cleric spell that can be found, more spells to cast and domain spells and feats that intrude a bit too much on a wizard's territory as most powerful / versatile spellcaster.
What spell selection do wizards in your games normally use?Looking at spell lists I do not think the cleric's spells are any worse than the wizards, many spells appear on both lists and some of those are lower level for the cleric, also the more sourcebooks a group uses the more powerful a cleric becomes by default his spellbook and repetoire just gets better and better.
I can see the cleric is supposed to be a warrior priest, I am just saying such a character is unnecasary with those abilities.
My point is not every priest should be a warrior and primary spellcaster rolled in one, you have mages and fighter - mages, why not make the same distinction with priests.Would you honestly say if a priest got stuck with light armor proficiency and just good will saves it would be any less than a wizard ?
the usual spells that are awesome most of the time I suppose ;)
a few spells I changed, haste being a prime example, since I believe it far exceeds the powerlevel of other spells. not many spells have the same impact as this one, I limited it to one creature. I consider making a higher level mass version though.vampiric touch, otiluke's resilient sphere, magic missile, shield, mage armor, grease, dispel magic, false life, summons, dimension door, black tentacles, enervation, fireball.. sometimes.. that is what I can think of on a short notice. might miss a few important ones ^^
Wizards are better casters basically, though they get some hefty penalties in comparison and I feel like a cleric that is already caster / warrior rolled into one challenges the wizard's dominion a bit too much.
Generally unrestricted access to every cleric spell that can be found, more spells to cast and domain spells and feats that intrude a bit too much on a wizard's territory as most powerful / versatile spellcaster.
More spells does not equal better. Quality is more important than quantity. That is why the mystic theurge does not get a thumbs up from me. Wizards also have spells than can win battles by themselves. Now if you are houseruling spells then you may have pushed the wizard down so the power difference is not so great. If the wizard's spells on average matter more than the cleric's spells do that has to be taken into account.
as far as I have been houseruling spells I assure you I am more inclined to downgrade cleric more than wizard, haste is just a prime example of a silly spell in my opinion.
An encounter with hasted party is devastatingly more effective than a party without, a spell that becomes so important to a party's performance is in my opinion too powerful. The impact a haste spell causes can not be mimicked by another spell of similar power.
It makes martial characters near twice as effective, and that for the entire party is way too much I think. how will that even start to compare to a summon of equal level for instance ?
as for spell selection, I agree quality is more important, though a cleric does not have to choose among the spells he puts in his spell book and can memorize more spells, often it is more about the right spell on the right time than a 'higher quality' spell.
spontaneous casting gives the cleric considerable freedom with some situational spells, since a spell that wasnt so useful afterall can still be converted.
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as far as I have been houseruling spells I assure you I am more inclined to downgrade cleric more than wizard, haste is just a prime example of a silly spell in my opinion.
An encounter with hasted party is devastatingly more effective than a party without, a spell that becomes so important to a party's performance is in my opinion too powerful. The impact a haste spell causes can not be mimicked by another spell of similar power.
It makes martial characters near twice as effective, and that for the entire party is way too much I think. how will that even start to compare to a summon of equal level for instance ?
Haste broken ? 3.0 haste maybe, but the 3.5 haste is fine. One additional attack when you make a full attack is no big deal really.
one additional attack at full BAB and + 1 attack, + 1 AC, + 1 reflex saves for everyone in range that matters.... don't think you give that nearly enough credit.
At lvl 5 it more than doubles the damage output every round the spell is active, and gives some slight defensive bonus as well. sure you cant always make a full attack, but that is compensated by the extra movement you get.
I think 3.0 haste was actually for one person though, even if the benefits were better. main problem was the quickened casting.
Why on Earth are you nerfing melee classes? That makes no sense. No melee class can hold a candle to any full caster. And yes, nerfing haste is nerfing melee classes; it's not worth casting if it won't hit any melees. The only real benefit a caster gets from it is the movement speed, which can be gotten for a longer duration as a level 1 spell.
And no, 3.0 haste was area-effect as well.
nope nope I have 3.0 book right here.. it was one creature only.
well the haste nerf works two ways it is very easy to make an encounter to obliterate the party by adding a lvl 6 sorcerer for a crap addition to challenge rating.
I didnt say the caster needed to cast it on him / herself did I ?
just pick your favourite warrior of the bunch.
only thing I did is make it more in line with other buffs, if no haste is considered A NERF for melee classes it is a bad spell.
the spell has much more weight riding on it than it should.
If the swordswingers suck that much better to boost them instead of boosting haste.
I haven't really encountered the sucking swordswingers in my campaign, though we havent played over lvl 12 yet. I did look at spells with a critical eye though and houseruled some, this in itself made for a more balanced game.
not the right topic to get into right now, but I am sure to think it over for a bit ^^