Monk Tweak: Iterative Movement

[Mok]

As an offshoot of a previous thread I made, I wanted to add as consideration another tweak I'm considering for Monks in the Pathfinder system:

Iterative Movement (Ex)

At 6th level, when a monk takes a full-attack action he may make a 5-foot step between each attack made during the full-round action. The 5-foot steps granted by Iterative Movement are an exception to the restriction of only one 5-foot step per turn. The monk may still take a standard 5-foot step in the turn when Iterative Movement is used.

Under the Weapons and Armor Proficiency section of the Monk one line should be modified to:

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement, flurry of blows and iterative movement abilities.

As with the other thread, I've been mulling over the Monk and how I feel the class is lacking, not simply in pure power in relation to other classes, but also that the flavor of what I think the Monk ought to be about is also not really coming through with the game mechanics.

So I'm trying to figure out elegant ways of tweaking the Monk class to draw out the flavor more for the Monk. In the previous thread it was about trying to expand the versatility of the monk in a unique way, and so I was focusing on making him the “combat maneuver guy.”

One of the other elements that has been repeated over and over again by people who also feel that the Monk is still lacking something is that the mobility of the Monk needs to be stressed more, and that in particular the flurry of blows is mechanically too static of a class feature to really capture the Monk's flavor.

Now, one often suggested fix is to give the Monk the pounce ability, which would allow a full-attack on a charge. It's ok, but for myself it just doesn't quite do it as it creates a strategy for a back and forth alpha strikes. The monk charges, doles out a lot of attacks, then the next round full withdraws, and then pounces again. To me that isn't really giving a sense of fluidity of movement.

So I've been looking at the notion of iterative movement. This would be a major exception to the game and is only replicated in rare instances in the larger 3.5 material, such as with the Dervish class in Complete Warrior. In fact, what I'm proposing is in some ways more powerful than the Dervish class, as the “dervish dance” is limited to a certain number of times per day.

The iterative movement feels better to me because it is capturing more of the fluidity of movement that you'd think would be possible for Jackie Chan or Jet Li character would be able to perform, being able to slip through a number of opponents, hitting them all along the way, maybe even tripping or disarming a whole crowd in one sweeping gesture.

One of the other things I like about iterative movement is that it is bringing radical exceptions to some core rules of the game (full-attacks and five foot steps) and locking them into a base class. Rather than having feats that anyone could potentially take, you have to invest in one of the base classes to gain these abilities, which is a much better way of handling the issues of trade-offs in the overall game system.

Another thing that I like about this approach is that Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps become more potent and desirable feats to take. I'm rather surprised that these were not included in the list of bonus feats for the Monk, but taking these would further enhance the idea of the Monk as the guy who can really move to wherever you need him to be.

The last way in which I've seen the iterative movement fit better with the monk is that one common complaint with the monk is that he doesn't hit hard enough. Iterative movement doesn't solve this, but instead shifts the emphasis away from the idea that you're supposed to focus all of your attacks on one target and hope for the best. Instead the flurry of blows becomes more of an “area effect” in that he can run into a crowd of mooks and spread attacks around and hopefully drop a number of them in a single round. This also helps emphasize him more as the skirmisher, who can run along the outside, smaking guys as he goes, until he gets to the rear where the caster or other important tactical element needs to be dealt with.

What about the Dervish? Well, I'm not all that interested in the Dervish. I'm trying to focus on Pathfinder without all the 3.5 material. In terms of design work I enjoy looking at things as close to core as possible, rather than drawing upon a decade of disparate material.

What I'm really interested in hearing from others would be if iterative movement somehow breaks the game? From what I've read of the Dervish, while potent, it doesn't screw up the game by having iterative attacks spread out with movement in between. What game balance impact does iterative movement have on the system?

Lastly, I can anticipate two types of arguments being thrown at this thread:

“The monk is fine and doesn't need any changes.” There are people out there that feel this way. I disagree and I can't see myself being persuaded otherwise. I don't like the mechanical feel of the monk and want to see the class' strategy more radical and asymmetric from other classes.

The other would be “The monk needs a complete overhaul and these things need to be fixed...” which to these arguments, I generally agree, but what I'm trying to do right now are find elegant little tweaks to the current class, and analyze those tweaks individually to see what works and what doesn't. Each ought to be modular so that they can be tested separately or together. Ultimately an overhaul could be done by implementing multiple tweaks.

[Dilvish the Danged]

If it's for his full attacks, not flurry of blows, shouldn't a monk get it at 8th level? Or am I missing something?

[Mok]

Dilvish the Danged wrote:

If it's for his full attacks, not flurry of blows, shouldn't a monk get it at 8th level? Or am I missing something?

It's a good question. I kind of zig and zagged to get to 6th level. At first I thought of when BAB kicked off and that was at 8th level, however trying to get a distinct feel for a class doesn't work well if you have to wait till 8th level for anything.

I'd actually just like to bake it right into flurry of blows and start it at first level, but there is an issue of frontloading the class. I'm not that concerned here, since you could still restrict the iterative movement to only being useful when no armor was employed.

Still, just to avoid the impression of front loading it was more of an issue of finding a higher level to institute it at. 6th level eventually made sense because it is when the flurry of blows BAB is gaining another attack, plus it fits the ability into games that use the E6 patch, which to me is important since the low level play is some of the best that the system can offer.

[Dilvish the Danged]

I'm still not sure whether you're proposing it for full attacks only (i.e. non-flurry of blows), or for flurry of blows and full attacks.

I like the idea of a monk not being rooted in placewhile making all of his attacks, but 5' step after every attack in a flurry amounts to a fairly significant amount of movement. An 11th level monk could start off with the 5' step that is normally allowed, and then take 5 more 5' steps, for a total of 30' movement, while flurrying.

[Mok]

Dilvish the Danged wrote:

I'm still not sure whether you're proposing it for full attacks only (i.e. non-flurry of blows), or for flurry of blows and full attacks.

Originally I was thinking in terms of Full Attack Action as what it is anchored to, with Flurry of Blows being a subset of that action.

On one of the other boards I'm discussing this I just posted some other ruminations on the rule:

Starting at Level 1?

One of the things that I keep going back and forth on is whether the iterative movement should be something that is simply baked into Flurry of Blows, rather than it being it's own class ability.

If you bake it into FoB and let it just happen at level 1 then you do get the immediate effect of "the monk does things differently" which I really like. Still, there is always this caution of trying to avoid doing too much front loading and causing dipping nightmares.

I'd think that by restricting the iterative movement to only being used when a character is unarmored helps solve a great deal of that, but I guess I'm being conservative right now and trying to avoid cascading effects. By putting it at 6th level it settles any unforseen overpowered dipping combos, and gives a carrot to sticking with the monk class.

Still, there might not be any problem. It does come down to whether Druids or Wizards can abuse it... but of course, to have a druid or wizard be tempted to multiclass is actually a good way of toning down their power curve.

Ki Pool

The ki-pool point is a good one to bring up and how it would interact with the iterative movement. Rather than having exceptions dumped on top of exceptions a clean rule would simply be that if you get an extra attack from using a ki point then you also get that extra 5-foot step.

Master Of Desaster's Questions

The potential movement that Iterative Movement could allow would be:

1st +5'/one extra 5-foot step
2nd +5'/one extra 5-foot step
3rd +5'/one extra 5-foot step
4th +10'/two extra 5-foot steps
5th +10'/two extra 5-foot steps
6th +15'/three extra 5-foot steps
7th +15'/three extra 5-foot steps
8th +20'/four extra 5-foot steps
9th +20/four extra 5-foot steps
10th +20'/four extra 5-foot steps
11th +25'/five extra 5-foot steps
12th +25'/five extra 5-foot steps
13th +25'/five extra 5-foot steps
14th +25'/five extra 5-foot steps
15th +30'/Six extra 5-foot steps
16th +35'/Seven extra 5-foot steps
17th +35'/Seven extra 5-foot steps
18th +35'/Seven extra 5-foot steps
19th +35'/Seven extra 5-foot steps
20th +35'/Seven extra 5-foot steps

I added in the numbers above of levels 1-5 just for completeness, but the numbers above reflect at level 4 and beyond the use of a ki point to gain an additional attack, and thus add another 5' step of iterative movement.

One of the things that is interesting is that depending on your level, you're basically also getting your fast movement bonus or less. So in any given round you'll potentially be moving more than any other class, which is the feel I'm trying to go for.

So the chart above answers Master Of Desaster first and second questions.

As for the third, should the speed bonus for the monk be modified? That's a bit more work. All of the extra movement in the above chart assumes that you've got this long chain of opponents to be able to shift along, which is highly unlikely most of the time, so while you can potentially move pretty far those situations are going to be rare.

The iterative movement is less about zipping across the map, and more about being able to full attack while also shifting around to gain a flank, or to plow into a cluster of opponents and smack several of them in a single round, even if they are spread out just a bit.

One of the images that I do like with this rule is that the monk can shift behind larger creatures fairly easily, representing him running under legs or dogging big limbs.

Tumbling

It does detract from using acrobatics to tumble through some situations. You could make the iterative movement require tumble rolls, but that becomes a nightmare of lots and lots of rolls, plus analysis paralysis as the monk player not only tries to map out how many guys he can hit in a round, but also his odds of avoiding AoO between each iteration. That sounds awful in terms of gameplay.

Interaction with normal 5-foot step

This is probably the murkiest part of the ruling. Can you take your normal 5-foot step and also one of the iterative 5-foot steps in sequence? Thus getting a 10-foot step? Making Scouts salivate?

The major problem I'm having here is one of elegance versus cascading effects. You can write a whole paragraph trying to sort out when and how the standard 5-foot step interacts with the iterative movement 5-foot steps, but that ends up being clunky and tends to make even more questions. So making it simple and allowing people to stack two 5-foot steps together is far easier to remember.

The flip side is that whether or not this makes the game blow up in your face. The scout would greatly benefit from multiclassing with the monk. You could flurry around doling out extra damage per hit once you've triggered the movement threshold, or blaze away with shurikens, making them worthwhile above the first few levels. All in all I don't think it screws up the game, but I can see some DM's freaking out with all that stacking of abilities. I suppose this would be one argument to have the iterative movement start at 6th level to tone down the dipping element to the game.

Beyond that I'm not sure what other issues crop up if you can potentially be 10-foot stepping every round you're doing flurry of blows. Maybe it isn't a real problem.

[Aratex]

I'm intrigued by this idea, so here are my thoughts.. Or more accurately, what I would do if I was going to houserule something like this in.

I would attach Iterative Movement to Flurry of Blows, probably at level 8 where FoB gets an improvement anyway.. Just tack it onto that paragraph. That eliminates the problem of scouts dipping monk because 1) it's pretty late in advancement and 2) they'd be limited to using monk weapons, most (or perhaps all, I'm rusty on scouts) would require them to take another feat for proficiency. Beyond that, I'd leave the ability as is.

Personally though, I'd probably just simplify the whole thing and give monks a modified Spring Attack that allowed for FoB around level 6. Let them move how they want between targets and have their Flurry as long as they don't exceed their total movement and only use monk weapons. Still late enough to avoid dipping, and the weapon limitation should prevent too much abuse.. and it's full of monky flavor without being difficult to explain or worrying about excessive movement speeds.

[Dabbler]

I've been involved in this discussion on another board, and I'll add here what I said there:

• I have no issue with the iterative step being part of Flurry of Blows rather than coming in at a later level. At low level, it isn't going to make that much difference anyway. Not many foes space themselves so conveniently anyway.

• I'd add the ability to expend a ki-point to deliver an extra attack as part of a standard action. This extra attack would share all the features of the primary attack. I think this is much more balanced than letting the monk pounce as was suggested.

• The monk should be able to use the FoB attack bonus whenever using a monk weapon or unarmed attack. It makes no sense to me that a single attack would be less accurate than the first attack of a flurry.
  

[Dilvish the Danged]

Just to be perverse for a moment, if iterative movement could be used for any full attack action, how would it work with Whirlwind Attack? (Although I haven't seen any Monk builds that use Whirlwind Attack)

[Dabbler]

Whirlwind Attack is a full action (as opposed to a standard or move action), therefore you can't use it with any other action than a five-foot step. As iterative attack is only usable with a full attack which takes a full action, you cannot use the two together because you are not full-attacking when you Whirlwind Attack.

[Dilvish the Danged]

From the first post

Mok wrote:

Iterative Movement (Ex)

At 6th level, when a monk takes a full-attack action he may make a 5-foot step between each attack made during the full-round action. The 5-foot steps granted by Iterative Movement are an exception to the restriction of only one 5-foot step per turn. The monk may still take a standard 5-foot step in the turn when Iterative Movement is used.

Now I am not trying to be obtuse, but as far as I know there is no rules distinction between a 'Full Attack Action' and a 'Full Action.' If you can point me to one, please do. This is why I brought up Whirlwind Attack - it is a real head-scratcher to me. And there may be other feats that would be similarly problematic.

Of course, "baking" it into Flurry of Blows, simplifies things.

[Eyolf The Wild Commoner]

Here you go

================================
Combat Step (Combat)
Prerequisites: BAB +6
Benefit: You may move up to half your speed and still make a full-round action. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity. All attacks are at -2.
Normal: You may make a five foot step and still make a full round action.

Improved Combat Step (Combat)
Prerequisites: BAB +11, Combat Step
Benefit: You may move up to your speed and still make a full-round action. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity. All attacks are at -2.
Normal: You may make a five foot step and still make a full round action.

Greater Combat Step (Combat)
Prerequisites: BAB +16, Combat Step, Improved Combat Step
Benefit: You may move up to your speed and still make a full-round action. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normal: You may make a five foot step and still make a full round action.
=========================================================================== =

I didn't create those, but they are probably best for what you're trying to do.

Anyway, Dabbler, I posted an apology to ya.

[Dilvish the Danged]

It was never my intention that this issue be nit-picked to death, I think that the OP had a fundamentally good idea. I suggest re-wording it to clarify it a bit, like this:

Optional Rule- Iterative Movement (Ex)

while a monk is performing a flurry of blows, he may make a 5-foot step between each attack made during his turn. The 5-foot steps granted by Iterative Movement are an exception to the restriction of only one 5-foot step per turn. The monk may still take a standard 5-foot step in the turn when Iterative Movement is used.

Edit: As an optional rule that applies only to Flurry of Blows, I would also change the name 'Iterative Movement' to 'Flurry of Steps' or something like that.

[Dabbler]

That reads way better to me, and is nice and simple as well. It also chimes with the live demos I've seen of living martial arts (not the crap on the movies) where the master just kind of strolls through the group of attackers without breaking step, laying them low as he goes.

[iamgroot]

I'm curious if anyone has tried this variant or something like this, and how it worked out? I'm thinking of doing something similar in my campaign.

[Kryzbyn]

I think this shows the difference between a guy moving about and a flurry of blows
Watch how he moves about, and then how he ends the last guy.