The Warforged of Eberron campaign setting were often seen as being just at the far edge of +0 pushing +1 LA, and by some to actually cross the line.
I have an idea for a character though that is just a living construct without all the extra stuff that the Warforged tack on.
So, my question to the informed masses is:
What LA, if any, would the Living Construct template be, if used as is? (i.e. the "character" had no beginner modifications other than that template).
Presumably it would be too weak by itself. If you agree, what would you do to bring it in line with the other Pathfinder races? If you think the template alone is too strong- what would you trim off?
Thoughts?
-S
The Warforged of Eberron campaign setting were often seen as being just at the far edge of +0 pushing +1 LA, and by some to actually cross the line.
I have an idea for a character though that is just a living construct without all the extra stuff that the Warforged tack on.
So, my question to the informed masses is:
What LA, if any, would the Living Construct template be, if used as is? (i.e. the "character" had no beginner modifications other than that template).
Presumably it would be too weak by itself. If you agree, what would you do to bring it in line with the other Pathfinder races? If you think the template alone is too strong- what would you trim off?
Thoughts?
-S
Where is the template?
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I can't remember exactly, but I think it was in MM2 or the Fiend Folio. I believe it can be found in the SRD as well.
Throwing the Lifespark Construct template from Green Ronin's awesome Advanced Bestiary as a possibility too. I don't have any of my books on me at the moment, so I don't know what adjustments either of them require offhand.
I think it did cross the line into +1 LA at least. I've currently got one in my Runelords campaign, and the list of immunities is preposterous — game changing, and very difficult to reconcile with a low-level party.
At any rate, I think the idea of a living construct could be great, but many of the immunities and effects they were given were not strictly necessary to capture the feel of a living construct. I would scale it back until it seemed on-par with the other LA 0 races (or in pathfinder, I suppose that means player races).
Lose immunity to level drain, give them a respiratory system (or keep that as a major class ability), define how they work with bleed rules (we let them bleed). Warforged in my campaign take only half negative energy damage, and gain only half positive energy healing.
That said, it's a great exotic race for players — cool idea, just needs to be tweaked a little bit to be remotely fair at lower levels.
In PF, they are not overpowered at all :
Construct Traits (Ex) Constructs are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Constructs are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. Constructs are not at risk of death from massive damage.
Bleed : Constructs can bleed already (not that it makes a huge amount of sense to me).
Death Effects : Living constructs would be affected by Death Effects.
Mind-Affecting Effects : Living constructs would be affected by mind-affecting Effects.
Necromancy effects : Living constructs would be affected by Necromancy.
Paralysis : Living Constructs would be affected by Paralysis (more than likely).
Energy Drain : Living Constructs should be affected by this.
Ability Damage/Drain : Living constructs should be affected by this.
This leaves :
Living Construct : No breathing, no eating, no sleeping. Immune to poison, sleep, stun, nonlethal damage, fatigue and exhaustion. Combine with a floating +2 and it's not all that overpowered.
This leaves :Living Construct : No breathing, no eating, no sleeping. Immune to poison, sleep, stun, nonlethal damage, fatigue and exhaustion. Combine with a floating +2 and it's not all that overpowered.
I would argue that the above list of immunities is too much for a player race.
Many of those things could be rationalized in a living construct player race, and should be to prevent the party from using the warforged as a means to circumvent hazards. There is no mechanical need for any player race to have this many immunities, and no thematic reason for them either.
PS - Even my computer sleeps.
This leaves :Living Construct : No breathing, no eating, no sleeping. Immune to poison, sleep, stun, nonlethal damage, fatigue and exhaustion. Combine with a floating +2 and it's not all that overpowered.
I would argue that the above list of immunities is too much for a player race.
Many of those things could be rationalized in a living construct player race, and should be to prevent the party from using the warforged as a means to circumvent hazards. There is no mechanical need for any player race to have this many immunities, and no thematic reason for them either.
PS - Even my computer sleeps.
You can, of course, argue all you want anything you want. If you want someone to agree with you, you should give some reasons at the very least.
No Breathing/Eating/Sleeping : Mostly can be taken care of with a Ring of Sustenance.
Immune to Poison/sleep : Elves are immune to sleep, and several species are immune to poison.
Stun/Nonlethal : Nonlethal comes up rarely in most games. Stun is just a condition, again, doesn't come up very often.
Fatigue/Exhaustion : Spells, class abilities (low level ones) can remove these abilities.
No extra feats, no extra skills, no double favored class, no skill bonuses to anything, no special senses. There may not be any mechanical need for any player race to have them, but there is no mechanical need for ANY race other than humans to exist, only thematic. As to thematic need, thematically a construct race should have those immunities.
Oh, and as to the PC remark, no, your PC does not need to sleep. Please try learning about a PC before you try to make comments about technology you obviously don't understand. Your PC can run 24/7/365. It never needs to sleep. It is CAPABLE of sleeping, but that is not a requirement, it is a way to cut down on how much energy it uses.
Dunno how to link so:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_liv ingconstructsubtype&alpha=
that is to the living construct template, from the Wizards site glossary.
Dunno how to link so:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_liv ingconstructsubtype&alpha=
that is to the living construct template, from the Wizards site glossary.
Here you go, fixed.
Thanks much :)
-S
@MDT
I am an IST major at a tech school and I am well aware of the technical considerations, I was just making a light-hearted jest. I'm sorry if my comments are mistaken for anything more serious than that.
Enjoy your holiday!
@MDT ** spoiler omitted **
@Evil Lincoln
No problems, sorry I took it the wrong way. It's hard to read emotions into posts, and there weren't any :)'s.
I'm a GM too, and routinely run people who play all sorts of odd critters. To be honest, the biggest 'unbalanced' race I've run into aren't Warforged/Living Constructs. It's actually Paizo's Noble Drow. For only a +1 CR boost, they get mad skills/stats/abilities. I think they honestly should have been a CR 2. I've never had problems with a living construct causing me issues. The biggest thing is that 'Can't be healed by magic except at half ability'. That's a killer balancing thing, which I admit, I forgot to list above in the balancing factors, mea culpa on that.
And, Living Constructs only gain half hit points from healing spells... THAT is the balancing factor.
As a DM, for houserule, i personally consider they can't use potions.
As they don't drink, my assumption is that they don't have the organic compatibility for potions to work on them.
(but they can look for special oils, especially made for them, as special versions of same potions)
As a DM, for houserule, i personally consider they can't use potions.
As they don't drink, my assumption is that they don't have the organic compatibility for potions to work on them.(but they can look for special oils, especially made for them, as special versions of same potions)
LOL
I always say they are pouring the potions over them, and since a lot of it just drips off, that explains why it's only half effect. ;)
We allow potions. He has a little tank that he pours them into. The presumption is that there is some kind of circulatory system (hydraulic?), and BTW that's why he can bleed.
I tend to extrapolate a lot from the "living" part of living construct, but it works pretty well considering.
warforged are mostly live wood, which does not die, the blood is mostly a sap like substance, the stone and iron cover very little of the warforged and is mostly the "armor" part
Warforged can eat, and drink, and have a taste sense. They do not need to but some do eat small portions for the sensation alone. There is not tank to pour anything into, they have a throat and something akin to a stomach
Even house cannith is not sure why the forges create them like they do, after all they do not fully understand how they make them.
warforged are...
Right, but I thought this thread was about living constructs, not warforged.
In which case, just about anything goes. An individual GM has z lot of wiggle room within this very cool concept. I tend to use the wiggle room.
warforged are...Right, but I thought this thread was about living constructs, not warforged.
Looks up Nope 90% of all the talk is about the warforged, yours included. Which I repleyed to as well
You guys were talking basics of warforged so I pointed out a few more
The original post was about living constructs however, not Warforged.
Warforged have a good many extra doodads stapled onto them in addition to the basic Living construct frame.
What I was envisioning was a medium sized humanoid carved from darkwood (for flavor rather than any mechanical benefit) with the living construct template attached. Thus the question of whether or not LC would need some tinkering to bring it into line with the core races- either sliding it weaker or more powerful.
-S
My post, at least, was a discussion of a base race with the living construct build, not warforged.
Rogue Mordens are living construct can't think of any others off hand
I thought the point of the discussion was 'How do we handle a new living construct under PF', not 'what living constructs are already existent in 3.0/3.5/PF'.
I have no clue at this point most of the talk was warforged, which was why I spoke about them. I have not seen the subtype any place but the ECS, and really 90% of the warforged ablitys are wrote up in the subtype. Lest all the ones folks b*$!$ over
As you yourself pointed out, most the the subtype goodies act very diffent now. I guess the first step would be posting up what the subtype would look like under the new system. And go from there
I have no clue at this point most of the talk was warforged, which was why I spoke about them. I have not seen the subtype any place but the ECS, and really 90% of the warforged ablitys are wrote up in the subtype. Lest all the ones folks b~#!~ over
As you yourself pointed out, most the the subtype goodies act very diffent now. I guess the first step would be posting up what the subtype would look like under the new system. And go from there
Sounds reasonable. I'll repost my earlier posting on the subject then, and we can go forward from there...
In PF, they are not overpowered at all :
Construct Traits (Ex) Constructs are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Constructs are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. Constructs are not at risk of death from massive damage.
Bleed : Constructs can bleed already (not that it makes a huge amount of sense to me).
Death Effects : Living constructs would be affected by Death Effects.
Mind-Affecting Effects : Living constructs would be affected by mind-affecting Effects.
Necromancy effects : Living constructs would be affected by Necromancy.
Paralysis : Living Constructs would be affected by Paralysis (more than likely).
Energy Drain : Living Constructs should be affected by this.
Ability Damage/Drain : Living constructs should be affected by this.
This leaves :
Living Construct : No breathing, no eating, no sleeping. Immune to poison, sleep, stun, nonlethal damage, fatigue and exhaustion. Combine with a floating +2 and it's not all that overpowered.
Now, having thought about it, I'd make the following changes :
Living Construct : No breathing, no eating, no sleeping. Immune to poison, sleep, stun, nonlethal damage, fatigue and exhaustion. Constructs cannot be healed normally by such things as positive energy, Conjuration (Healing) spells, curative objects, and other healing abilities like Lay-on-Hands. Their composite structure combines living and non-living components. A living construct can never gain hitpoints from healing that raise it's hitpoint total above half it's maximum hitpoints. However, spells that repair objects, such as Mending or Make Whole can fully restore the hitpoints of a living construct. It should be noted that the living constructs living aura interferes with Mending spells, and they can only benefit from one Mending spell per day.
Combine the above with a floating +2 and it's not all that overpowered. Alternately, I could even see a living construct having two floating +2's (which must be placed one each into a physical and mental stat) and a floating -2 (which can be placed into any stat, even one they put a +2 into). Theoretically, all living constructs were made by someone, for a specific purpose, so targeted stats for that purpose.
EDIT: Ah, forgot, Mending can't affect constructs, so ignore that part. Make Whole appears to be the only 'healing' spell for living constructs.
Humm I had a thought about flesh golems, Reborn from the dead. Not undead but built from parts of the dead, maybe with some machined parts as well
Also on subject not sure where you got this from"A living construct can never gain hitpoints from healing that raise it's hitpoint total above half it's maximum hitpoints." but I would kill it
only gaining half HP is one thing, but liming how much it can heal you is another. Also so make whole does not effect living constructs at all nor does mending. The repair spells however do, but they are not open
Also stun and nonlethal damage effect Living Constructs. As did death effects,ability drain and damage as well as necromantic effects
Myself I would go
Living Construct : No breathing, no eating, no sleeping. Immune to poison, sleep, fatigue and exhaustion. Constructs cannot be healed normally by such things as positive energy, Conjuration (Healing) spells, curative objects, and other healing abilities like Lay-on-Hands and only taking half the normal amount healed
Now I am not sure if the auto stable was a WF thing or construct, as the book I am going from lists it as a LC traint but I would add that as well. Also depending on the type some spells"rusting grasp, wrap wood" might effect the LC
Humm I had a thought about flesh golems, Reborn from the dead. Not undead but built from parts of the dead, maybe with some machined parts as well
Could do that I would think, for that specific type though, I'd probably give them an Necromantic Aura and either make them immune to negative energy, or give them partial healing from it. Sort of a Frankenstein's monster, alive but not alive, dead but not dead.
Also on subject not sure where you got this from"A living construct can never gain hitpoints from healing that raise it's hitpoint total above half it's maximum hitpoints." but I would kill itonly gaining half HP is one thing, but liming how much it can heal you is another. Also so make whole does not effect living constructs at all nor does mending. The repair spells however do, but they are not open
I put that in myself, I think, personally, it's a good limiter combined with the stun/nonlethal immunity. Hmmm, yes, I suppose make whole wouldn't either. Missed that. I think I'd list it as actually affecting constructs of all kinds. I think that there needs to be a way to repair constructs (living or otherwise). Currently, per core, there's no way to do it (other than certain ones, like stone golems healing from mud to stone).
Also stun and nonlethal damage effect Living Constructs. As did death effects,ability drain and damage as well as necromantic effects
Myself I would goLiving Construct : No breathing, no eating, no sleeping. Immune to poison, sleep, fatigue and exhaustion. Constructs cannot be healed normally by such things as positive energy, Conjuration (Healing) spells, curative objects, and other healing abilities like Lay-on-Hands and only taking half the normal amount healed
Now I am not sure if the auto stable was a WF thing or construct, as the book I am going from lists it as a LC traint but I would add that as well. Also depending on the type some spells"rusting grasp, wrap wood" might effect the LC
Stun I might be able to see, but I'm not sure how you could get nonlethal to affect even a living contruct. For a human, you are basically cutting off air, cutting off blood to the brain, overall system shock, but all those are biological processes.
As to the half-heal max, I really think there needs to be more limitation for the bonuses you get, but then, that's a personal oppinion. I've run quite a few WF's in my games, and while the healing is a little bit of a pain, it's a far smaller issue than you might think. Whereas limiting it to 1/2 max makes for a limitation with a real bite. But again, that's an opinion thing, and could go either way.
I'd be ok with them auto-stabilizing at negative HP, but I'd also have them shut down as well (IE: No diehard and keep moving, no moving at 0 hp either, just inert until something heals/repairs them).
I'd like to take the time to point out that there are several versions of the repair damage spell from the Spell Compendium.
Minor, Normal, Greater, Mass, Lesser, whatever it's got it.
Spells specifically focused at repairing damage on items/constructs.
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I think that removing the ability to be healed with positive energy in entirity would be a could idea.
Thus making them immune to positive and negative energy unless it is a specifically high concentration. I.E. Positive or Negative Energy plane.
Therefore, I'd even vote to motion that they only acquire 1/4 (one quarter) of the damage dealt or healed from negative or positive energy spells.
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Aside from that, I'd have to give my opinion that due to the Pathfinder Dying system letting your negative limit be to your con score. Would these constructs have a con score at all? If so, then I'd propose that they go like all characters normally to their con score. I.E.; 12 con = -12 hit points. I also further propose that once they reach 0 hit points, they auto stabilize (or just don't suffer bleed damage) and then act as if disabled. = One move or standard action a round.
Each round they would take 1 or 2 points of damage until they hit their con limit, and then became inactive. Shut down, essentially.
I disagree that they should have no positive energy healing at all, nor should they just be completely immune to the pos/neg energies.
For one- You are then depending on the DM to include such items in the campaign. I'd rather not tack that on to an already risky position. (i.e. asking for the template at the first place).
For two- I'd rather not require an arcane caster to burn either spells known or spells per day just to keep me going. With intelligent play you can do a pretty good job of avoiding damage but requiring someone else to take care of you from their precious resources seems to me to be abit much.
At least with 1/2 healing you Can get healed if need be. (if not ideally).
-S
I'd rather have a playable living construct like Shale from Dragon Age myself.
Modrons are pure constructs, not living ones. They're also extremely difficult to fathom and play :)
Modrons are pure constructs, not living ones. They're also extremely difficult to fathom and play :)
Rogue modrons(the only type you could play) are living constructs. If you do not agree it wasn't me but they are stated up in an issue of dragon, the last April one I believe
remember that as written, warforged recieve half of healing effects (cure X wounds). But they take FULL DAMAGE from negative energy/necromancy effects (inflict X wounds)
The lving construct template is in the Savage Species but it is for a LVING construct as in Construct turned to life with flesh and bones, HUGE loss of abilities and LA.
I'd offer up the Gearforged in the _Zobeck Gazetteer_ (seen here) as a possibility.
They're fun to play with and have a basis as human souls tied to new construct bodies, making RP easier. They have construct traits, do not heal naturally, heal minimum from cures, but psionic and mending-ish spells work on them. They have a 4 hour rest period for maintenance and some skill bonuses. They're LA+0.
-Ben.