Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I've been toying with an old-school PFRPG sandbox campaign. The model I'm using is an old hex-based map - the PCs have the map and they can explore the hexes to find out what's in them. I have a heavy, almost absolute bias towards 3rd-12th level play. I like my players to think about how their characters stay alive, set up camp, etc. I realize most people find this type of stuff to be boring and the core rules reflect it to a large degree - people play to fight the dragons, not describe how their characters build a lean-to.
So, at the core, my question is, what can I do to make these non-combat activities more interesting. Here're some of my thoughts:
1. Food and Water. I'm almost tempted to go with a food point system. So, each day, each character needs X food points. Rations can provide food points, but are only good for a few days. The characters will need to spend some of their time hunting, gathering, preserving, or stealing food. I suppose the easy way to handle this is with something simple like a survival roll, and for each Y points above the DC you get X food points. A failure below a certain margin means you fall and injure yourself, get gored by the deer you were hunting, etc.
2. Resources. Each hex has resources. Again, I'm in a points based mood, so I'd be tempted to go with wood points and metal points. These points can be sold/crafted etc. It seems like in this type of system, I would want to give out free crafting skills to let the players do these things. I'd like to have the hexes say something simple, like Food +3, Wood +2, Ore -5. Then, whenever a player makes a check in that hex, he gets the corresponding bonus. It's likely that the food received might also result in fur, bones, or other usable parts for crafting as well. The gp of treasure will likely need to be low to keep these activities worth performing.
3. Investigating. In addition to the resources avaialble in a hex, I'd like to hide things in hexes. This might be a sheltered grove that makes for an ideal camp spot, a monster lair, or even some particularly valuable resource. Again, I'm not sure how to model this and make it interesting.
4. Influencing the Random Tables. I'd like to have the game be powered by random tables, but I'd like to have the PCs influence those tables. My best idea is to have a table with the low (or no) CRs near the top and the high CRs near the bottom. If the players find appropriate shelter, they get a bonus to the random table. If they spread blood around camp and bang on pots and pans, they get a penalty. Part of me almost wants to use the random tables for the resources too - so basically, rather than a yes/no check to see if the character succeeds, they would get roll on the random table and see what they get after doing some scouting/investigation.
5. Assigning Non-Combat Values to Existing Abilities. I don't want to go through each feat, spell, etc that is sub-optimal to combat and assign it a bonus to a non-combat activity, but I'd like to try and make those types of feats, spells, etc. more viable. I'm not sure how to do that or if anyone has some good guidelines or suggestions.
6. Encourage Multi-Classing and Slow Down Progression. One idea I've toyed with is having the characters spend xp to gain levels. So, to go from 1st level to 2nd level, you spend 1,000 xp, bringing your total down. Multiclassing would also cost 1,000 xp for the first level. That would make the higher levels much more expensive. I realize that this will tend to favor the melee types, who mostly want better BABs and can get those through multi-classing, but I'm vaguely okay with that too. I would like for magic to be rare and I don't necessarily mind taxing the spellcasters to reduce their effectiveness. I'd make a corresponding cut in magic items so that the only real way to get, for example, invisibility, is to have a 3rd level spellcaster in the party, which would hopefully shore up some of their value.
Anyway, I know this is pretty vague and undefined, but I've been mulling this over and thought I'd toss it out to see if anyone has any ideas. My ultimate design goal is to heavily encourage non-combat abilities or suboptimal combat abilities, and I think the best way to do that is to install some mechanics that reward those abilities. These mechanics should produce similar results as fighting monsters (gps and xp) and ideally, they should interact with the combat system as well (so, step up the penalties in combat for not eating/sleeping enough).
Any thoughts?
Grabbing some popcorn and waiting for the hordes of sebastianophobes to come and trash this thread...
That which is measured, gets done.
I would certainly not boil things down to a single roll. They can make a survival roll to determine the best place to find some prey. Then make them roll stealth to stalk, layer on some bonuses to hit if they make the roll well, and then even break down the hunt into combat. You may have to fudge damage rolls and Hit Points so they can bring some game down.
Allow the players to be creative with their use of skills. Spirit of the Century allows players some narrative control over a 'scene' with the use of a Knowledge check. I would do this with appropriate skills. A successful survival check allows them to find an appropriate animal to hunt. A successful concealment check allows them to uncover some edible berries.
As far as the random tables go, I would populate your hexes before hand. Then decide who would most likely be where. Whoever is highest on the food chain has the best natural shelter. If the players discover that shelter (Survival roll) they stumble across the big bad.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't know how much help this will be, but the way I run my campaigns is completely different.
This does help and is actually the way the current DM is running his campaign. On the one hand, it is a great style and a lot of fun and a significant part of my inspiration for this thread. On the other hand, it can feel too loose to me as a player, and I wish it has slightly more structure.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That which is measured, gets done.
Exactly! And my fear is that if I leave it too vaguely defined as to what rolls will be required/important, they won't know how to allocate their skill points/feats/spells to make meaningful participations. That's why I'm trying to think through what the challenges are and what the corresponding mechanic should be.
I would certainly not boil things down to a single roll. They can make a survival roll to determine the best place to find some prey. Then make them roll stealth to stalk, layer on some bonuses to hit if they make the roll well, and then even break down the hunt into combat. You may have to fudge damage rolls and Hit Points so they can bring some game down.
Hmmm...maybe the result of the survival/stealth rolls grants a to-hit/damage bonus. Each target has hp, if they exceed it, they kill it. That somewhat simplifies the combat mechanic but still uses some of the pieces.
As far as the random tables go, I would populate your hexes before hand. Then decide who would most likely be where. Whoever is highest on the food chain has the best natural shelter. If the players discover that shelter (Survival roll) they stumble across the big bad.
But, I love random tables! I'm always torn when I come to campaigns like this between setting things down in stone like you've said and gonig off the tables. Part of me thinks that I should figure out which hexes are the lairs of the major predators. The hexes around those lairs are where those creatures hunt, and therefore, random encounters will likely be with such creatures. But then I realized how hideously complex it would be and became sad.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Anyone have any thoughts on spending xp to gain levels? Part of me also thinks I might let them keep buying a fake level at a low price. No class abilities, just a HD (say d8), 3/4 BAB, +3/4 caster level, 2 skill points and, maybe if the character has (or gains) caster levels, one extra 0 level spell and 1st level spell castable and 2 new known spells (for a memorized caster) and 1 new known spell (for a spont caster).
Do you plan to run your campaign in an exploration theme ?
Uncovering the hexes on the map along the exploration would be rewarding for the players, as they would discover the world according to their journeys.
I saw another thread about exploration in the game. If it can be sometimes nothing but a few mentioned details in parenthesis between two points, exploration can also be an adventure in itself, along of course some interesting discoveries and encounters.
Odysseus and Jason are two perfect examples.
The resources you mention of course remind many RTS games, such as Warcraft or Age of Empires.
You could go in that direction while promoting the development of kingdoms and their maintenance a la Birthright, therefore counting on resources of the land and calling for expansion or conquest of enemy territory.
Anyone have any thoughts on spending xp to gain levels? Part of me also thinks I might let them keep buying a fake level at a low price. No class abilities, just a HD (say d8), 3/4 BAB, +3/4 caster level, 2 skill points and, maybe if the character has (or gains) caster levels, one extra 0 level spell and 1st level spell castable and 2 new known spells (for a memorized caster) and 1 new known spell (for a spont caster).
Levels already have a cost in XP.
What you could do is to enforce training at each levelup, through research for trainers, mentors, masters, cost in gold or services for training in new class abilities, feats or spells, and in general a reasonable time for any training or development.
I happen to do that myself.
Or you could consider proposing a XP/Gold cost for extra feats, spells or abilities.
I love where you are going with this, however by building in some of these rules it can get bogged and a little clunky.
You want something like this to have a feeling of 'flow'.
Once the players have 'built' their party, a lot of this stuff will become self explanatory - Rangers being able to forage enough food for X people a day, what the average Stealth/Perception of the party is - and how that affects their tactical position, who took Survival skills, how much gear they took in field and how many horses etc they need - what sort of encumberance are they carrying?
To come at this another way, I often find myself moving overland through some pretty horrid piece of terrain whilst carting almost my bodyweight in gear. In my pack is usually 2-3 days food, about 8lt of water (2 gallons-ish) my shelter & sleeping kit, toiletries, admin stuff, ammo etc - and while carting all this I can still walk fairly quickly - but am certainly not 'nimble and stealthy'.
When stuff gets 'interesting' we drop packs.
On my immediate person (in pouches) is usually 2lt water and food for 24 hours. So if I don't get my pack back, I am still in a reasonable 'survival' position for some time.
Asking your party to be similarly detailed can certainly enrich the game for people who like the grittiness and survival of the fittest kinda games.
On the other hand if your players only like a montage of themselves crossing the Alps between encounters then they may get bored stiff :P
Darksun was a great setting for this kinda stuff.