I have tried to help one of my players make a more effective and action minded character out of his 20 point-by 7th level halfling bard. At the moment he is not quite optimized and is behind on treasure.
I would love any help available to make him a more lethal archer in a way that supports his bardic abilities. I am mostly interested in his build but suggestions to equipment are also welcome.
Miro will take crossbow mastery (but otherwise he will be PRPG RAW) and rapid shot ASAP. His heavy crossbow will probably be given an energy enchantment.
Miro ”the Unlucky” Zevlyn
Male halfling bard 7
LN Medium humanoid
Init +4; Senses Perseption +2
DEFENSES
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +1 shield, +1 deflection, +4 Dex, +1 Size)
hp 47 (7d8+7)
Fort +4, Ref +10, Will +7 (+2 vs. fear; +4 vs, bardic performance, sonic, language dependant effects)
OFFENSE
Speed 20 ft.
Melee mwk rapier +7 (1d4+2/18-20), with arcane strike
Ranged heavy crossbow +11 (1d8+2/19-20), with arcane strike
Special Attacks Point Blank Shot, Arcane Strike, Precise Shot
Spells Known (CL 7th)
3rd (2/day) - Good hope, haste
2nd (4/day) - Silence (DC 15), glitterdust (DC 15), mirror image, invisibility
1st (5/day) - Expeditious retreat, grease (DC 14), hideous laughter (DC 14), silent image, remove fear
0 (6) - Dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, prestidigitation, mending, read magic
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 17
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 18
Feats City Born (Korvosa), Point Blank Shot, Arcane Strike, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (heavy crossbow)
Skills Acrobatics +5, Bluff +13, Climb +1, Handle Animal +11, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (history) +15, Knowledge(all other) +9, Linguistics +6, Perception +8, Perform (wind) +13, Perform (dance) +13, Perform (sing) +13, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +12, Stealth +7, Use Magic Device +13
Language Common (Taldane), Halfling, Varisian, Giant, Elf
SQ Bardic knowledge, lore master 1/day, bardic performance 19 rounds/day, inspire courage +2, inspire competence +3, countersong, distraction, fascinate, suggestion, versatile performance (wind, sing), well versed
Combat Gear +1 chainshirt, mwk. buckler, mwk. rapier, +1 heavy crossbow, 20 crossbow bolts, 10 cold iron crossbow bolts, 10 silver crossbow bolts, cloak of warding +1, scroll of sleep, scroll of minor image, scroll of whispering wind, wand of produce flame, wand of silent image, potion of cure light wounds (2) Other gear mwk. flute, back pack, bedroll, 50' silk rope, waterskin, torch
|
Well I for one would ditch the heavy crossbow and get a repeating heavy crossbow instead. That way when he gets multiple attacks he can actually fire more than once per round. Of course he'd need Exotic Weapon Prof for that.
I'd also consider getting Deadly Aim. Though since he's going to have access to multiple attacks per round I'd think Rapid Shot is in order.
Efficient Quiver is a pretty cool item.
Hope this helps.
Well I for one would ditch the heavy crossbow and get a repeating heavy crossbow instead. That way when he gets multiple attacks he can actually fire more than once per round. Of course he'd need Exotic Weapon Prof for that.
I'd also consider getting Deadly Aim. Though since he's going to have access to multiple attacks per round I'd think Rapid Shot is in order.
Efficient Quiver is a pretty cool item.
Hope this helps.
In stead of a repeating crossbow he will take creossbow mastery with the heavy crossbow. It might cost one more feat (repid reload+crossbow mastery vs. exotic weapon proficiency) but heavy crossbows are more readily available and the repeating crosbow is slow to reload when empty.
Deadly aim and rapid reload are definitely feats planned on, byt will not be until lvl 9 and 11. I guess.
Thanks for the suggestion though. I would love some more ideas though.
I don't understand why he's using a heavy crossbow- it takes a move action to reload with the feat. That's downright wasteful for 1 or 2 extra dice. I would *highly* recommend switching to either a light crossbow or, more effectively, a shortbow. Shortbows cost fewer feats to be awesome and can benefit from Manyshot to really boost their damage.
If he swaps the crossbow to a shortbow, swap rapid reload for rapid shot and it'll double his attacks per round on a full attack. Otherwise it's a pretty solid build.
|
As Sean said, this would be a pretty decent build if he'd be willing to switch to a bow instead of a crossbow. The smaller damage die is absolutely made up for by the increase in attacks and decrease in the number of actions needed to shoot it.
If the crossbow is really integral to the character concept, you've got the right idea but it'll always be sup-optimal if he's using a crossbow of any kind.
I don't understand why he's using a heavy crossbow- it takes a move action to reload with the feat. That's downright wasteful for 1 or 2 extra dice. I would *highly* recommend switching to either a light crossbow or, more effectively, a shortbow. Shortbows cost fewer feats to be awesome and can benefit from Manyshot to really boost their damage.
If he swaps the crossbow to a shortbow, swap rapid reload for rapid shot and it'll double his attacks per round on a full attack. Otherwise it's a pretty solid build.
The heavy crossbow is solely for damge. With crossbow mastery it reloads as a free action and does not provoke AoO in melee.
We thought of using a bow but the damage was dismal. 1d4? No Str bonus! If you can suggest ways to enhance the damage I would love some suggestions. It this point the 1d8 from HCB seems the best option (each shot matches a shortbow manyshot!)
If you're burning a feat anyway, might as well just get longbow proficiency.
1d6+0 seems pretty weak damage!?
Con 10 = you're toast. I highly recommend going with higher or you're in one-shot territory. If you trimmed int by two and dropped a skill, you'd probably be okay.
That might be a good idea. Is that your only objection to the ability scores?
Good Hope is okay but not really worth the in-combat action. I'd recommend Dispel Magic or Fear.
Dispel is a very good option. However, it was discarded as there are already three characters able to cast it in the party. Why ddo you think Fear is worth it? Arre there any buff spells you would exchange Good Hope for?
City Born is a weak feat; you don't need to waste a feat to say you're from a city.
That is a free bonus feat given to match the characters background.
You have a bunch of weak scrolls and wands, but no wand of CLW.
Potions are very weak for a class that can use scrolls or wands of that spell.
True. Right now most equipment is pretty incidental. Wand of CLW will definitely be added ASAP.
|
Use a bow instead of a crossbow and take deadly aim instead of rapid reload. At 7th level, that are four points of damage more each shot. With arcane strike, good hope and bardic music, that would be 1d4+10. And 2d4+20 are much better than 1d8+10. Once you gain additional bonuses to damage, the base die becomes rather unimportant, unless you want to take feats like vital strike.
I'd also take heroism as a 2nd level spell. While it doesn't stack with good hope, its duration is much longer.
The base damage is only a small fraction of the damage the character should be doing. Deadly aim, multiple shots per round, bonus damage from a magic weapon are all going to contribute far more to the total damage than the difference between 1d4 and 1d8. Dealing with loading as a move action is not pretty (and heavy crossbow with Crossbow mastery is loading as a move action).
If you are totally in love with crossbows go to light crossbow and crossbow mastery so you can load as a free action. Then you can take rapid shot which buys you an extra attack per round.
If you are NOT in love with the crossbow then just use the shortbow, bards get shortbow proficiency and the extra +1 damage and range for the longbow generally isn't worth the feat. Then instead of taking crossbow mastery you can take deadly aim and you are instantly outdamaging the heavy crossbow. Add rapid shot or multi shot and it ramps up even faster.
The only reason I would suggest longbow is if you have a good reason to think range is a factor. Otherwise the feat you save by not taking proficiency can be used for ramping up damage.
Heavy Crossbow with Deadly Aim and Vital Strike isn't a horrible combination, but crossbows suck in D&D/PF compared to bows. If you're using a crossbow, you should accept that with the heavy crossbow, you're an artillery piece, not a machine gun laying down suppression fire.
For anyone with a ranged weapon, Deadly Aim and Point Blank Shot should be the first two feats you take.
I too would suggest using a shortbow over a crossbow. Those feat slots can be better spent.
Look at it this way. If you use that "Rapid Reload" feat on "Deadly Aim" - the shortbow already does more damage than the crossbow.
If you switch "Crossbow Mastery" for Multishot - then there is no contest at all.
As for Fear/Confusion - MiB and I have already had a looooooooooong discussion on that and have to agree to disagree.
However - discarding Fear and Confusion for the moment. You are a halfling, and therefore have a crappy movement score. Have you picked up Phantom Steed yet? I would take that before Fear OR Confusion in your case.
Just to pile on with everyone else -- Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot (and Manyshot, if you're using a bow) are the primary feats to focus on for a ranged attacker; Martial/Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery are a distant second place (IMO).
The base damage is only a small fraction of the damage the character should be doing. Deadly aim, multiple shots per round, bonus damage from a magic weapon are all going to contribute far more to the total damage than the difference between 1d4 and 1d8. Dealing with loading as a move action is not pretty (and heavy crossbow with Crossbow mastery is loading as a move action).
With crossbow mastery loading ANY crossbow becomes a free action.
With crossbow mastery loading ANY crossbow becomes a free action.
Sure. So with the expense of two feats, you're essentially gaining two points of damage, on average (the difference between a 1d4 shortbow and a 1d8 heavy crossbow) and the ability to avoid AoOs for shooting in combat. So the question is: "Can I spend two feats and get more benefit than that?" I would argue that Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot (or Rapid Shot and Manyshot) provide more benefit, but YMMV.
With crossbow mastery loading ANY crossbow becomes a free action.Sure. So with the expense of two feats, you're essentially gaining two points of damage, on average (the difference between a 1d4 shortbow and a 1d8 heavy crossbow) and the ability to avoid AoOs for shooting in combat. So the question is: "Can I spend two feats and get more benefit than that?" I would argue that Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot (or Rapid Shot and Manyshot) provide more benefit, but YMMV.
My greatest concern is not so much the feat expenditure.
As I see it this character has to go all the way and pay whetever prize necesary and even take some hard levels if necesary in order to achieve the maximum effectivity.
2hp dmg on every shot is not something to be discarded outright.
But what will make the greatest impact 1d8 in stead if 1d4 on EVERY damage roll or the benefit of manyshot? Without a lot of different damage bonuses manyshot really makes nor contribution in itself.
As I see it at 20th level the bow will do:
1d4 (base die) + 8 (deadly aim) + 5 (arcane strike) + 1 (point blank shot) +5 (bow enhancement bonus) + 1d6 (frost) + 1d6 (flaming) + 2 (strenght)= 1d4 + 2d6 + 21 = 30 dmg
At 20th level the crossbow does:
1d8 (base die) + 8 (deadly aim) + 5 (arcane strike) + 1 (point blank shot) +5 (crossbow enhancement bonus) + 1d6 (frost) + 1d6 (flaming) = 1d8 + 2d6 + 19 = 30 dmg
So the damage is the same.
As for number attacks of attacks the bow at 20th level has (includes manyshot and rapid shot):
+15 (BAB) +8 (Dex) +5 (bow enhancement) +1 (point blank shot) +1 (weapon focus) -4 (deadly aim) +1 size = +27(double damge)/+27/+22/+17
As for number attacks of attacks the crossbow at 20th level has (includes rapid reload, crossbow mastery and rapid shot):
+15 (BAB) +9 (Dex) +5 (crossbow enhancement) +1 (point blank shot) +1 (weapon focus) -4 (deadly aim) +1 size = +28/+28/+23/+18
It appears bows probably are better as far as damge is concerned.
Crossbows have the advantage of range though... and look cooler.
Bows will require some investment in Strength while the crossbow requires 1 more feat to use. For that feat the bow can do one more point of damage (with composite longbow) and improve the range too.
So bows are better - even for a halfling.
If I am missing something or can do something to add to these figures let me know. (bracers of archery are irelevant as inspire courage is far better.
Speaking of inspire courage, this is what I make out of the buffs:
+4 (inspire courage) +2 (good hope) +1 (haste)
Thats one extra attack +7 to hit and +6 to damage
With a composite longbow the halfling bard is now at +34 [x2]/+34/+34/+29/+24 for 3d6+27 dmg each. For these modifiers preparation is a factor of course. The bard song can be initiated as a free action and good hope can with just some warning or a surprise action be activated before the actual combat begins. Haste will probably be the 1st round action.
Is this a sound and acurate evaluation?
As for Fear/Confusion - MiB and I have already had a looooooooooong discussion on that and have to agree to disagree.I agree to be right and he agrees to be wrong. :D But for a character who can survive near-ish to melee and has much more business being near melee, Fear is a great fight-winner and escape spell.
Phantom Steed is kind of iffy for someone who doesn't have any skill points in Ride, until you get the flying version (which is a long way off). I can't recommend it on a bard's limited budget for spells known, especially for someone who has Expeditious Retreat.
I have always been very keen on Confusion Without wanting to derail this thread think confusion is supperior to fear in most instances, but for this one character fear might actually be a more useful spell than confusion.
Bards by thier nature are not route to go for "optimization" as archers. They may be fine for flavor but you are going to have to accept that you have certain built-in liabilities.
1. You don't have the BAB of a fighter or ranger
2. You don't have either the extra feats of a fighter, nor the combat path options of a ranger.
3. Your class abilities outside of morale don't exactly synergise with that of archery.
I think you need to examine what you're looking to do with this character; If archery is to be your be all and end all, you're barking up the wrong tree. If there are other things you're looking to accomplish then you need to balance your misslery goals with those other things you're investing in.
This characters role is:
1 - a social interaction expert2 - information bank
3 - buffer
With that said it is needed that he will be able to effectively help the party reducing enemy threads by delivering precise and damaging attacks.
With bow shots at +34[x2]/+34/+34/+29/+24 for 3d6+27 dmg each I think we are actually getting there and when compared to many of the archer builds I have seen on this board I really think these numbers are pretty decent.
But we will appreciate any suggestions that help this character be more effective in combat. It should be apparent that we have already taken a look at Treantmonks guide and have taken some of his advice to heart.
With crossbow mastery loading ANY crossbow becomes a free action.
Ahh, my bad, misremembering the feat.
2hp dmg on every shot is not something to be discarded outright.
But what will make the greatest impact 1d8 in stead if 1d4 on EVERY damage roll or the benefit of manyshot? Without a lot of different damage bonuses manyshot really makes nor contribution in itself.
You are missing the point. It is not being discarded, it's simply that for an investment of 2 feats you can get a lot more at even earlier levels than that same +2 damage. With those 2 feats you can take deadly aim and precise shot which means you are going to be much more useful in combat at an earlier level and deadly aim more than makes up for the +2 damage at a lower level.
Bards by thier nature are not route to go for "optimization" as archers. They may be fine for flavor but you are going to have to accept that you have certain built-in liabilities.Archery in PF is the go-to combat style for classes who don't have enough spells to cast spells all the time or the resources to devote themselves completely to another combat style. PBS/Precise/Rapid/Many/Deadly is less than half the feat budget of most characters, and enough to give you a solid fallback combat strategy.
A bard archer is not going to be the best archer around, no, but it's going to be able to contribute when it's not spellcasting.
I think we have established where a bard lands archerywise. Crossbow and composite bows are not that different when it comes to damage, while the bow is probably a less feat expensive and potentially more damaging option. Either way a dedicated fighter/ranger archer will not be terribly better on to hit and damage than the buff-archer.
What about magic items and other feats or spells that might contribute to an archer bards role? Remember that in combat this character is mainly a buffer and secondly an archer.
Bards by thier nature are not route to go for "optimization" as archers. They may be fine for flavor but you are going to have to accept that you have certain built-in liabilities.
1. You don't have the BAB of a fighter or ranger
2. You don't have either the extra feats of a fighter, nor the combat path options of a ranger.
3. Your class abilities outside of morale don't exactly synergise with that of archery.
I think you need to examine what you're looking to do with this character; If archery is to be your be all and end all, you're barking up the wrong tree. If there are other things you're looking to accomplish then you need to balance your misslery goals with those other things you're investing in.
I am not really sure of the validity of your point.
Look at Zurai's FighterMan in this thread.
FighterMan is a dedicated archer and attacks at +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23 for an average of 44.5 hp dmg.
In comparison this archer bard attacks at +34/+34/+34/+29/+24 for an average of 37.5 hp dmg.
Obviously FighterMan is the better archer and can down a balor in 2 rounds but as it is HalflingBard does 185.625 hp dmg to a balor each round Which is also exactly enough to kill a balor in two rounds. With that sayd HalflingBard has not even had his equipment optimized as FighterMan has.
Since archery is at best HalflingBard's secondary or tertiary role in a party he really has lot going for him.
He is an information gatherer, a diplomat, a buffer AND an archer. HalflingBard has many more strings to play on (pun not intended) than FighterMan has will still provide the non magical ranged fire power needed by most parties.
|
|
To add into the thread... Alot of people starting focusing at higher level feat-wise. As far as I understand it the OP was simply asking to look at this level to get him back on track. This implies that the character isn't doing well contribution wise. Fitting in with flavor, my suggestion would be to use a shortbow now and get deadly aim or rapid shot now, and at later levels take the feats for crossbow mastery. This would let him be much more effective now but also letting flavor be a little better. The bard in question could then be using a crossbow as early as level 11 if he took rapid shot now, rapid reload at 9, and crossbow mastery at 11. At 13 he could then take deadly aim (Or as most people are going to suggest take that at 9 and push everything else further back 2 levels).
To be honest, I don't see this character being woefully created, I only see one or two problems, which mostly would be solved by adding in rapid shot/deadly aim and using a weapon which could use those feats.
On the subject of spells, while I actually find ]good hope to be a decent choice, I actually much prefer heroism, as it has a 10 min/level instead of 1 min/level duration. While you do lose the +2 damage, it's the only portion that you miss. This could let you pick a debuffing/buffing spell that may be more useful: slow, see invisibility*, crushing despair, fear, confusion that come to mind.
*While a wonderful spell, this may be more useful as a scroll, wand, or some other form to get this spell. It's "required" but may cost too much for a spell known.
To add into the thread... Alot of people starting focusing at higher level feat-wise. As far as I understand it the OP was simply asking to look at this level to get him back on track. This implies that the character isn't doing well contribution wise. Fitting in with flavor, my suggestion would be to use a shortbow now and get deadly aim or rapid shot now, and at later levels take the feats for crossbow mastery. This would let him be much more effective now but also letting flavor be a little better. The bard in question could then be using a crossbow as early as level 11 if he took rapid shot now, rapid reload at 9, and crossbow mastery at 11. At 13 he could then take deadly aim (Or as most people are going to suggest take that at 9 and push everything else further back 2 levels).
To be honest, I don't see this character being woefully created, I only see one or two problems, which mostly would be solved by adding in rapid shot/deadly aim and using a weapon which could use those feats.
On the subject of spells, while I actually find ]good hope to be a decent choice, I actually much prefer heroism, as it has a 10 min/level instead of 1 min/level duration. While you do lose the +2 damage, it's the only portion that you miss. This could let you pick a debuffing/buffing spell that may be more useful: slow, see invisibility*, crushing despair, fear, confusion that come to mind.
*While a wonderful spell, this may be more useful as a scroll, wand, or some other form to get this spell. It's "required" but may cost too much for a spell known.
Thanks. I think it is great you bring us back on track. It is easy to get carried away though not very interesting when the actual situation is here and now at level 7.
I have talked it over with my player and think we agree that this is a better approach at the HalflingBarf than we started out with.
I think Heroism is great but the damage bonus from good hope is so sweet! Whether he will take both Good hope and heroism or which one he will pick I think is a good question.
Thanks for the help everybody.
It is nice to hear that the overall build of this character is sound. We will take the advice about bows to hear and heroism, fear and confusion will be added to the spell list as soon as possible.
BTW Balors do have DR which has to be counted for each shot. unless there's some major investment going on.
Balors' DR is overcome by a simple +5 weapon (or an aligned +3 weapon, or any aligned bow with cheap cold iron arrows). A Balor's DR isn't a major impediment to an archer bard.
BTW Balors do have DR which has to be counted for each shot. unless there's some major investment going on.Balors' DR is overcome by a simple +5 weapon (or an aligned +3 weapon, or any aligned bow with cheap cold iron arrows). A Balor's DR isn't a major impediment to an archer bard.
I was figuring a +5 bow with +1 holy arrows.
Ack. Don't add both, as they are essentially redundant spells. Pick the one more appropriate to the character concept (since the power level is so close that it's only important to people with enough time on their hands to argue about those things) and go with that.
That we can agree on ;)
Bards have full caster level. You could boost your archery with Craft Arms/Armor. Summon Monster I in particular allows for bane arrows, which is really nice.
And you've got the possibility of UMD goodness. Flame Arrow, Cat's Grace, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. Buy some scrolls.
Where did you get this: "and the ability to avoid AoOs for shooting in combat." from the feat. I started a post under Rules Questions called Crossbow Mastery and I'm trying to clarify this feat (description vs benefit)
Sure. So with the expense of two feats, you're essentially gaining two points of damage, on average (the difference between a 1d4 shortbow and a 1d8 heavy crossbow) and the ability to avoid AoOs for shooting in combat. So the question is: "Can I spend two feats and get more benefit than that?" I would argue that Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot (or Rapid Shot and Manyshot) provide more benefit, but YMMV.
I probably misread the feat, then.