The real problem with summoning spells...

[Captain Marsh]

...is that they bog down the game table horribly.

Pathfinder has come up with a much better list of monsters and animals -- more interesting, more balanced.

But they still have a complicated array of activations and powers that require a lot of at-table book research.

With my big group I ban them pretty much altogether.

Even with smaller groups, I require all spellcasters to have a basic stat sheet for and a thorough understanding of any creatures they plan to summon.

I think a really cool product/utility for Paizo to create would be a deck of summoned creatures cards, with quick-use references for powers.

The deck would also be a chance to expand the number and range of summonable monsters.

-Marsh

[Fraust]

I feel your pain...I've been in more than a few groups where "I summon a dire rat! uh, what does a dire rat do?" sends a chill up my spine.

Having the stats there and ready is a huge help, I think I'm going to instatute the you-must-have-the-creatures-stats-ready rule in my RotRL campaign. Only problem is, I don't have the bestiary yet...so if it's not in the first two previews I don't have access to it.

Summoned creatures going on the summoning caster's initiative helps a lot in that you don't have to keep track of a ton of seperate initiative scores. It does however give the caster a large portion of the spotlight each turn, and make it feel like it's taking longer to get to each individual player.

Having the DM run the summoned creatures cuts down quite a bit on the stretching of an animal's tacticle knowledge. Rat's are smart, I've had many as pets and been constantly amazed at how much intelligence they show...I don't see them singling out the party rogue as someone they should flank with however...

Enforcing duration and reasonable behavior has a tendency to keep the summon monster spells from being the first answer to every problem. Something I've seen happen quite a few times. Reread the spell, it states the creature appears and attacks the caster's enemies. So if you summon some random animal in a hall way with no bad guys to send it to search for traps...it's going to require some creativity to get it to do anything.

[varianor]

Cool idea on a deck.

Summoned creatures (especially at low levels) make good flankers. They often fall into the same problem as mounts, familiars and animal companions. Too much extra stuff on the tabletop takes more time to handle. Definitely have them act on the caster's initiative.

I'm a big fan of letting the PCs operate them. Even if they're a bit smarter than the average bear, it won't hurt gameplay if they're effective. (They also tend to go away relatively quickly.)

The more you use summoned creatures in a game, the more familiar you'll all become with their abilities.

[Phoebus the JustFortunateEnough]

Fraust wrote:

Only problem is, I don't have the bestiary yet...so if it's not in the first two previews I don't have access to it.

All of the Bestiary critters are in the Pathfinder Reference Document. You may not be able to access it during play, but at least you can use it to prepare ahead.

Also, d20pfsrd.com has many pregenerated stat blocks of the summonable versions.

[Mirror, Mirror]

I create my own with index cards. You know, some of us old-timers used to use those things, back in the day... :P

Seriously, make anyone summoning bring thir own stat-blocks. You can verify the stats here.

The best thing abour making your own, you can re-calculate the summons for Augment Summoning or DR from sorcerer abilities.

[Kolokotroni]

Fraust wrote:

I feel your pain...I've been in more than a few groups where "I summon a dire rat! uh, what does a dire rat do?" sends a chill up my spine.

Having the stats there and ready is a huge help, I think I'm going to instatute the you-must-have-the-creatures-stats-ready rule in my RotRL campaign. Only problem is, I don't have the bestiary yet...so if it's not in the first two previews I don't have access to it.

Summoned creatures going on the summoning caster's initiative helps a lot in that you don't have to keep track of a ton of seperate initiative scores. It does however give the caster a large portion of the spotlight each turn, and make it feel like it's taking longer to get to each individual player.

Having the DM run the summoned creatures cuts down quite a bit on the stretching of an animal's tacticle knowledge. Rat's are smart, I've had many as pets and been constantly amazed at how much intelligence they show...I don't see them singling out the party rogue as someone they should flank with however...

Enforcing duration and reasonable behavior has a tendency to keep the summon monster spells from being the first answer to every problem. Something I've seen happen quite a few times. Reread the spell, it states the creature appears and attacks the caster's enemies. So if you summon some random animal in a hall way with no bad guys to send it to search for traps...it's going to require some creativity to get it to do anything.

I already have a rule at my table that you MUST have the stats either printed or written out of anything you are going to summon before the combat. Generally we have a half hour or so at my game where the dm sets up and people settle in at the table. If you havent written it out you cant summon it. As for control i generally let the players control animals they cant communicate with, but if they do something the creature wouldnt think to do I step in and make them play it unintelligently (unless its actually intelligent)

I would however love a product like this. It would be really useful to both players and dms.

[Fraust]

Phoebus the JustFortunateEnough wrote:

All of the Bestiary critters are in the Pathfinder Reference Document. You may not be able to access it during play, but at least you can use it to prepare ahead.

Also, d20pfsrd.com has many pregenerated stat blocks of the summonable versions.

Is the dire template in there anywhere? I couldn't find it, but haven't had a chance to set down and disect the whole thing Thank you for the link by the way.

[Kolokotroni]

Fraust wrote:

Phoebus the JustFortunateEnough wrote:

All of the Bestiary critters are in the Pathfinder Reference Document. You may not be able to access it during play, but at least you can use it to prepare ahead.

Also, d20pfsrd.com has many pregenerated stat blocks of the summonable versions.

Is the dire template in there anywhere? I couldn't find it, but haven't had a chance to set down and disect the whole thing Thank you for the link by the way.

Dire animals have their own entry Under [animal name], Dire

For instance:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tiger.html#tiger-dire