A thought stuck into my head based from another thread in this forum that Hyrum started and Louis chimed in.
Paizo isn't going to be doing anything for this niche in the near future and on a number of occassions, some of us have chimed up every other month about wanting a modern/future setting that's Pathfinder compatible. A lot of the information is already included in the SRD / OGL, so that gives you something to build from the ground up. Pathfinder core has a lot of crunch that's OGL so that can be used to upgrade some of the old 3.5 SRD content.
Some of us want to be able to expand on some of the niche areas such as Numeria or Alkenstar with campaign neutral plug-n-plays, but we might not be as strong with a grasp on the mechanics to perform the crunch ourselves. Since this would be a project on a greater scale, some of you well respected 3PP's ought to collaborate and get something going. When completed, make this an OGL-PF product so your respective companies as well as other 3PPs can sandbox / build off of it with their own supplements. Post-Apoc? Check. Stargating to planets across the campaign world solar system? Check. New races? Check. Skills that can translate between fantasy to future to modern if your character travels or goes back into time into these unfamiliar settings and how to integrate them with little difficulty? Check.
The 3PPs who collaborate can insert free advertising for their own company and products. Outside 3PPs can pay a sum to include their products. Those who have older 3PP products that could use a rehab / second life for PF compliancy should appreciate this. And to help fund? Make it Open Design. I know I'd throw in some money and want to get my voice heard.
Anyone interested in this? Feel free to steal this idea; I'm just a fan with some thoughts and hopes that someone wants to tackle it.
C'mon you Super Geniuses. Hey Louis, you got a number of products that I downloaded during the Cyber Sale that could benefit a 2nd look / upgrade. Alluria - you can give us more strange playable races across the galaxies. Dreamscarred -- hook into this your psionics upgrades and mods. Rite Publishing. Metal & Myth. Adamant. C'mon! My PC wants to visit your worlds but need to get there. He wants to go into the past and change the present. How do I use this blasty gun? What's this glowing vibro blade sword? What has six hands and a need to escape to somewhere offworld? That would be my PC.
C'mon folks. This needs to have a lot of +1's and this chimes.
There's guys that could use the work that were laid off for the holidays. Let us demanding fans wanting a niche put our money where your mouths are!
;)
Beautiful. Well-said. But for the lingo-challenged, what's a 3PP?
EDIT: Wouldn't you know, as soon as I ask, it comes to me - third-party publisher. Right?
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What about a special edition of Wayfinder with fan created adaptations of PF rules to modern or future settings? For those of us who have some good ideas, but may not have fully developed worlds or settings, we could potentially put together enough ideas to develop our own settings or inspire a BILLION homebrews (perhaps a billion is an overstatement). Let the community be the judge of what gets in and what gets left out. All the cutting room stuff could still see light on the forums. Maybe? Anyone interested?
What about a special edition of Wayfinder with fan created adaptations of PF rules to modern or future settings? For those of us who have some good ideas, but may not have fully developed worlds or settings, we could potentially put together enough ideas to develop our own settings or inspire a BILLION homebrews (perhaps a billion is an overstatement). Let the community be the judge of what gets in and what gets left out. All the cutting room stuff could still see light on the forums. Maybe? Anyone interested?
Wishful thinking, but you don't want to leave it up in the hands of the defacto community. Being a part of the mess, it was/is difficult to do something like that for the arcane warrior during the current gishocalypse.
For me, it would be nice to see the overhaul standardization of d20 modern / future rules to Pathfinder format. Then participating 3PPs can insert something of their own where the crunch is OGL, but they hold the rights of the property for their fluff, and it would allow interested parties to check out their products. Then you'd get someone around here that has a lot of time and zeal on their hands to put up a Modern/Future "PFSRD" website and from a links page, a collective list of other commercially available and fan made campaign world settings.
Finally, it'd be nice to have someone head up a project to release something bi-annually somewhat similar to what you described that is already done for Wayfinders. I'd keep that its own separate entity to differentiate between the two as they tend to be more Golarion specific.
I'm kind of surprised there aren't more bites on this just yet. I'm somewhat jaded that some won't give 3PP their dues as they'd want Paizo to do it to make it official canon. *shrug* That's a narrow path, IMHO.
Oddly enough, we (Owen Stephens and I) were just talking about that subject about a week ago at one of the Super Genius planning meetings.
We both have LOTS ideas ... and think it would be a GREAT project ... but right now neither of us has the time to actually DO a project that big. Still, I'm sure we're going to keep thinking about it and egging each other on.
What sorts of things would you like to see in a Pathfinder-ized d20 Modern? What are the innovations you think would really be good additions ... and what parts of the current game do you think are solid as they stand?
I like CMB/CMD, simplified skills, and the general turn of classes in Pathfinder, and would want to see all of that in Pathfinder Modern (or whatever you 3pp decide to call a Modern book). Feats and skills should be compatible. (I think vital strike is a better way to handle upscaled gun damage than anything d20 modern had).
Also, I always thought d20 Modern classes were under-powered. *No* character starts with a full attack progression?! And nearly no one gets it later, either. I know alternating between talents and feats seems powerful compared to an old 3e fighter, but not compared to a 3.P fighter. So soup the classes up!
I have seen wealth bonuses work really well in a lot of games, but not all of them. Dual-stat all items for both wealth and $ purchases, please. And a goodly amount more gear, preferably broken up by era.
Give us one urban fantasy setting, one Fringehouse 12/Men in Black S-Files bump-in-the-night type modern setting, a pulp setting, and and one real spacefaring sci-fi setting.
Investigation rules that aren't slow or boring, and *could* be used for Pathfinder if someone wanted to.
Include psionics from the get-go. They fit d20 Modern really well, and you need a good system to start.
Make monsters from Pathfinder good at the same CR levels as monsters for d20 Modern, so you can just give us the -new- monsters we need, like mothmen, robots, grays, and sewer mutants..
Well, for starters the least we can do is review what currently exists as SRD and convert over what Pathfinder has already done (like updating certain feats, synergizing the skills, etc.). There are fan interests in trying to do it themselves. Look what Michael Johnson is painstakingly doing on his spare time for Gamma World.
Dungeon Grrrl pretty much nailed the archtypes of settings, but I would also like to add Post Apocalypse to the mix.
What I would like to see is the ease of integration to hop between settings w/o being deluged to tackle on additional skills that you may not have the necessarily slots for. Look at this PbP as an idea (although it has still yet to launch) I'm sure you all remember the old D&D cartoon in the 80's where they went from a modern setting to a fantasy setting. Or vice versa. Remember Beyond Countless Doorways where one chapter had this boat that could travel through planar realms? Or Spelljammer? What if your fantasy PCs were conscripted and taken to a different locale where the fantasy rules don't necessarily apply, but with a slight conversion / adaption, you can pick up skills to fire that laser pistol, pilot that ship, etc.
It's going to be a big project. Which is why I suggested it should be a patronage project and I am sure that other 3PPs would love to come in on board and collaborate. Some 3PPs may already have such functions in their campaign setting or PDF released, but they didn't allow it to be OGL to be utilized elsewhere. Some 3PPs may specialize in certain niches or may have something already available that would work well with a Pathfinder Modern/Future revamp.
The elephant in the room, though, is Psionics. Some of us don't mind the power point system, which Dreamscarred Press has already been running with a passion. But James Jacobs alluded that if Paizo does Psionics, they may revert to a Vancian system shadowing the Sorcerer. I'd hate to see the work done on psionics only to render it obsolete because we all know from experience that most will tend to fall toward the big guns' version as canon.
It would nice to have someone from Paizo on board as a technical consultant to give their blessing if they don't want to do Modern/Future and focus primarily on the Fantasy genre.
However, I would definitely feel comfortable if such a project is spearheaded by you (Stan!) and Owen given what you guys have contributed to in the past with WotC -- it gives the project street cred, IMHO.
I have a lot more I'd love to expand on, but I'd probably rather do it in a format / setting with a bunch of other folks who are as passioniately interested in participation.
The building blocks are out there. It may take a couple of years, but depending on the amount of interest and participants, who knows....
P.S. Glad to see you posted, Stan! Sometimes I think I'm talking to myself. ;)
Thanks for the words of confidence, Urizen.
I don't get to hang out around the boards much ... just too busy with various work assignments. But when someone makes me aware of a juicy thread like this, I try to pop in and at least make a token appearance. Y'know, just to keep from becoming a "whatever happened to him?" kinda guy. ;^)
Between you and Dungeon Grrrl, you raise a lot of very good ideas, and this is sounding more and more like a fun project ... that I just don't have time to sink my teeth into right now. I'm taking notes, though. And I'm SURE that Owen and I will chat more about this as time goes by.
Maybe we could find a way to do it in small, digestible chunks rather than a s single huge project.
I dunno. Just blathering.
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+1 and this.
I'd love to have setting-neutral rules for modern/science fiction OGL goodness, for which I could drop fluff from Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Firefly...the list goes on and on.
The rules could encompass some generic science fiction setting, but should include simple rules for customizing things like weapons, vehicles, and races.
Compelling classes with a variety of features that can cover many archetypes regardless of setting would be ideal. A large array of classes which the DM can choose to allow or disallow (something that could be adjusted for Jedi, Warhammer psychers, et cetera) depending on their chosen setting would compel me to buy it.
I'd like to see this happen and would contribute if it were to use the Open Design method of development.
I agree with the small digestible chunks option. I tried to get some discussion going about the skills, but that didn’t get anywhere.
My opinion is that the first thing that needs to be addressed is the skills, classes, and feats standardization. I am not too concerned about races at this point. For the sake of ease, we can use humans at the starting point and easily pull other races from Pathfinder as variant examples. Races are essentially fluff. More can be created in expansion packets (mentioned later).
I provided a starting point for skills in the preceding paragraph.
There will be debate whether to follow the original Strong/Fast/Tough/Smart/Dedicated/Charismatic archetypes or go with something different. If the former, they should definitely allow multiclassing flexibility to be able to branch into different campaign settings (like the modern=>fantasy example and fantasy=>sci-fi I alluded to earlier). Then there’ll be the discussion concerning talent features for each hero type.
Then the feats need to be reviewed and updated. Some may need to be beefed, some nerfed, some dropped, and some new ones provided. Again, it may be here where the ability lies to allow a character from one genre to pick up skills for another (a good starting point is looking at Star Wars where if you are force-aware, then another group of skills open up to you; etc).
That could cover one main release. I would then accompany it with a separate release for a setting type.
It looks to me that Sci-Fi is the biggest demand. Include a classic fantasy race and a newly created race as PC options (in addition to the human) for a total of three. Expansion packs can be provided later by the main 3PP or supplemented from other 3PP taking advantage of OGL.
Then, start throwing in new talents and/or PrCs for that setting. PrCs don’t have to be 10 levels. I don’t want to escalate 10 levels specializing in being a pilot, for starters. Ugh. I wish there were more where you’d see anywhere from three to five and then you can move on to something else. But that’s my POV.
Additional feats will pop up here in accommodation to the campaign play style.
Then you come up with the equipment guide and generic wealth system. Work with the obvious base. Future expansion packs can provide additional equipment.
Then a mini bestiary, where you include template a OGL fantasy race and include a couple new ones. Toss in a template or two. Expansion packs can be provided in the future for additional bestiaries.
Provide a couple of plot hooks / adventure paths to start for sandboxing purposes. Expansion packs can be provided later from you or other 3PPs based off the rules crunch that have been ‘standardized’.
Last, but not least, don’t forget those space-crafts. Rules need standardized, provide two examples, and then expansions can be offered later.
Then, move onto the post-apocalyptic setting. Follow the same format above. Urban fantasy setting, Men-In-Black/Dark-Matter, Pulp/Noir, etc.
At least in this fashion, whenever the Psionics elephant is tackled, it can be done as an expansion depending on which format wins out rather than wasting a lot of time and effort to find it trumped. At the least, provide a simple conversion format to get it off the ground with regard to mechanics and let the players go from there. One main issue that really needs to be standardized is the XP cost issue.
Hope this helps you with your ideas. Just allow me and others to continue to have a forum to keep putting a bug in yours and Owen’s ears to get things going sooner. Maybe if I click my red shoes together and say Stan! three times, you’ll emerge from the ether again. ;-)
If you guys do want to follow a patronage route to assist in fueling the project, I’m on board. I’m sure Dungeon Grrrl and w0nkothesane are as well.
Couple more things -
If I had my sci-fi tastes included, it'd definitely start as a space opera with some grit. Think of a Star Wars / Dark Heresy hybrid.
Post Apoc would be a blend of Fallout/Mad Max/Dawn of the Dead/I Am Legend. We need to look at Gamma World and Darwin's World as examples, but some of the stuff are a bit too cheesy or camp for my tastes. Mutation talents need to be in here.
Definitely look for cybernetic optimizations in the sci-fi and post apoc settings, too.
Wheew!
So after our Genius Day yesterday on the way to the Pathfinder game I'm running, Stan and I started discussing what a new version of Modern would look like.
It appears someone (*cough*Urizen*cough*) may have given Stan a brain worm he won't be able to drop quickly.... :D
Hyrum.
So after our Genius Day yesterday on the way to the Pathfinder game I'm running, Stan and I started discussing what a new version of Modern would look like.
It appears someone (*cough*Urizen*cough*) may have given Stan a brain worm he won't be able to drop quickly.... :D
Hyrum.
It's a spinning wheel of karma, Hyrum. You opened up the floodgate. I didn't want to jack your thread. ;-)
I may have some more brain worms in my pocket .... <checks> A-yup!
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Like Stan!, I wanted to at least pop in and say this in on our radar. We'd love to do this, but we're still struggling with how to do it. I hadn't considered the patronage route, and it's definitely something we Geniuses need to consider.
What I want to make sure we -don't- do is bite off more than we can chew. As much as I'd love to get back to the worlds I worked on so much, not to mention missing doing a bi-weekly rules column for an rpg, an updated D20 Modern-style rpg needs a lot of attention to be done right. Unless we can figure out a way to divide it into pieces we can take individually, or go some route that allows us to clear up a chunk of our shcedule from other work, I'd rather leave it undone for now that rush the job.
But I would -love- to get back into modern and sf d20 writing, I confess.
Like Stan!, I wanted to at least pop in and say this in on our radar. We'd love to do this, but we're still struggling with how to do it. I hadn't considered the patronage route, and it's definitely something we Geniuses need to consider.
What I want to make sure we -don't- do is bite off more than we can chew. As much as I'd love to get back to the worlds I worked on so much, not to mention missing doing a bi-weekly rules column for an rpg, an updated D20 Modern-style rpg needs a lot of attention to be done right. Unless we can figure out a way to divide it into pieces we can take individually, or go some route that allows us to clear up a chunk of our shcedule from other work, I'd rather leave it undone for now that rush the job.
But I would -love- to get back into modern and sf d20 writing, I confess.
Seriously consider the patronage route. It will give you expanded access on the financial side as well as a wide assortment of ideas. You need to put the call out to other 3PPs and/or freelancers who share the same compelling drive for paticipation by piecing 'em off to work on. Hopefully my idea in preceding posts gives a building block to work off of with regard to the basics and then allowing to offer expansion packs rather than to focus on everything all at once. With the main class/skill/feat package out of the way and then offering a base setting archetype released simultaneously (two products), this would be a good gauge as to the interest of who's going to pick it up and then expand onwards to other parts of Modern/SF to parcel out.
What I would like to see from a Modern/Future type game is the following:
A system that uses the current pathfinder ruleset with the neccessary additions to accomodate things like vehicles, firearms, technology.
A system that is balanced against existing pathfinder rules. This is where most modern games go to heck. They either make firearms incredibly powerful, or downright useless. Keep things in line. I am far less concerned about 'realistic' firearms rules then I am a balanced game that I could potentially integrate with my fantasy setting (Think the Dark Tower Series by Stephen King). I dont want the classes to replace the existing base classes. I want to be able to use a fighter rogue or even a wizard in a modern ruleset with a reasonable degree of balance. I would also like to see new classes from a non-fantasy perspective (gunslinger, scientist, maybe a non-mystical martial artist?). I dont want to see high damage fire arms with crazy low rates of fire(black powder) or an assualt rifle that completely negates the sense of using a bow. Sure a modern handgun is 'more powerful' then a bow and arrow, but HP are abstracted anyway, it doesnt need to be 'realistic'. Make them comparable to a bow or a crossbow, so that one is not superior to the other. There are lots of examples where cinematic use of old weapons are comparable to modern weapons (think of the green arrow for instance). Its not realistic, but neither is the game, its cinematic.
A system that allows for different technology levels. An ideal modern system for me would allow anything from a victorian era game hunting vampires in eastern europe to a space opera. Once you have the basics layed down its just a matter of equipment and some specific feats and other options.
Well, for starters the least we can do is review what currently exists as SRD and convert over what Pathfinder has already done (like updating certain feats, synergizing the skills, etc.). There are fan interests in trying to do it themselves. Look what Michael Johnson is painstakingly doing on his spare time for Gamma World.
Thanks again for the props, Urizen. I would gladly participate in putting some PF "mini-games" together, a la Polyhedron's "Iron Lords of Jupiter" and "Pulp Heroes" d20 mini-games.
As you mentioned, my adaptation of Gamma World already contains alot of d20 Modern and d20 Future stuff brought into line with PF mechanics where needed. When I've finished GW (should be done by the New Year), I'll try my hand at converting (i.e. beefing up) the d20 Modern basic classes.
At first glance, it seems it would be a matter of ditching action points (and perhaps the other non-PF attributes like Reputation and Defense bonuses), improving BAB and base saves for all six classes (I'd give at least Strong and Tough characters good BAB progression, and no class would get stuck with the sucktarded base saves they had in d20 Modern).
Here are my proposed modern changes (so far).
1) The classes are based on "combat ability," and there would only be three basic classes: action hero, skilled hero, and support hero. Action heroes are combat-oriented and get the best combat progression, d10 for hit points, and 5 skill ranks per level. Skilled heroes are skill-oriented and get the medium combat progression, d8 for hit points, and 9 skill ranks per level. Support heroes are the comic relief, sidekicks, etc. that aren't expected to stand out in either combat or interaction/exploration (i.e. normal people) and get the poor combat progression, d6 for hit points, and 5 skill ranks per level.
The basic classes are not meant to balanced with each other. Action heroes are meant to excel in combat, skilled heroes are meant to excel in investigation and social situations, and support heroes are meant to excel in normal, everday life (i.e. between encounters).
I like your idea better than the old d20 ability-score heroes, but I presume that support heroes are meant to be the NPCs? 'Cause I know I'd only want to play an action hero, or maybe (to be a team player) a skilled hero given the choices you propose.
I can definitely see two class choices working, provided the ability to choose from a variety of class features for each in order to highly customize each PC.
Sure a modern handgun is 'more powerful' then a bow and arrow, but HP are abstracted anyway, it doesnt need to be 'realistic'. Make them comparable to a bow or a crossbow, so that one is not superior to the other. There are lots of examples where cinematic use of old weapons are comparable to modern weapons (think of the green arrow for instance). Its not realistic, but neither is the game, its cinematic.
I agree with your ideas on how to handle firearms, Kolokotroni. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the only real-life advantages a firearm has over a bow and arrow are that there is alot less training necessary to be deadly with a firearm, and you can squeeze a trigger alot faster than even the fastest archer can nock and fire an arrow. Otherwise, an English longbowman or samurai with a bow can kill you just as dead with an arrow as a guy with a hangun can with a bullet! :)
So yesterday on the weekly Genius phone call we starting talking about this. We're seriously considering doing this, most likely through a patronage model. We're going to spend the holidays discussing options, but expect some news early in January about what direction we're going in.
Hyrum.
One of our options is up for support and discussion in a thread here at Paizo. If you really want this book, come let us know.
Linked it for you, Owen.