First, most people casting the spells (particularly if they are not built to be a "summoner") need to look up the stats for the monster they are summoning.
This is not an issue with summoning. I make the players have the stats ready. If they dont have a printer, they can call me before we game, and I will print some stats out for them.
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I thought you had to choose a monster from the list for the spell.
Yes, you do - I didn't mean you could summon a rust monster - I meant that if you faced a rust monster you'd want something with natural attacks to stand in front of it so that your fighter/paladin's equipment wasn't destroyed.
Sorry, I wasn't clear.
Is there a reason why the summoning spells summon such weak waste of time monsters? I never did get that even in 3.5. In fiction, a Wizard is able to summon a monster that actually helps, or in most cases a monster that's actually as powerful (if not more so) as he is. I've even looked at the Summon Monster IX list and found what you can summon to be pretty disappointing. Summoning a CR 14 at level 17-20? Necomantic Summoning is even worse. What good is summoning 1 HD skeletons at level 7? The things you're fighting will mow through your "army" like a hot knife through butter. The only thing I can think of is that Summoner types are meant to be NPC threats rather than PCs, but even then a DM would have to boost the power of the summoned critters to throw against the party. Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong but shouldn't a level 7 be able to to summon a CR 7 monster and shouldn't a level 17-20 be able to summon a CR 17-20 monster? The only Summoning spell I have ever seen that seems worthwhile is Gate.
I haven't played with summoning in pathfinder yet, but in 3.5 my typical first round is summoning a unicorn(s) depenting on how many enemies to give all my friends magical circle of protection from evil. They are decent hitters. for SNA 3 I get to use cure mod once per unicorn (also a level 3 spell) 3 CLW, neutralize poison on my not immune companions, and buff everyone's AC/saves and immunity to mind effecting spells of ANY alignment. My second action is typically I ready an action to disrupt an enemy spellcaster. Then I let my friend's kill everything and if someone tries to cast a spell I flamestrike them to disrupt it. In this way my summon conserves my spells, buffs my allies, and allows me to stop something potentially terrible like all my friend's being hit by a big nasty spell.
My problem with summoning is really a metagame concern -- it takes quite a bit of time at the table. First, most people casting the spells (particularly if they are not built to be a "summoner") need to look up the stats for the monster they are summoning. Then, each action after they summon the creature until it is destroyed, that player basically gets two actions (or more if they summoned additional creatures). That slows down gameplay at the table considerably, and shifts the spotlight away from the other players and to the summoner.
It would probably be fine in a small group, but once you get 5 or 6 players, summoning tends to be a Bad Idea because then every combat will take an hour or more. . .
This is one complaint about summoning I must echo. There are ways to reduce the time it takes (have ready templates, etc)
however, it still takes up quite a bit of time at the table.
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Summon is great, but you need to keep it in line with the encounters you expect to face, much like other attack spells. Summon Monster II is unlikely to be much use in a CR 10 battle (except for the odd flank or lucky natural 20).
Bragging Rights: This past friday, my group was acting out the final performance of the Six Trials of Larazod. The Trial by Combat came around and my Conjuror (SpF Conj., Acadamae Graduate and Varisian Tatoo) summoned 1d3 celestial riding dogs (I got 2) with Summon Monster II.
They literally ripped one of the monsters to bits (nat 20, confirmed, smite evil and a high die roll plus a successful trip, then the second one did it in). I don't think acid arrow could accomplish that with one casting at that level, plus I still had another 5 rounds to do that again if the rest of the party hadn't decided to be full of win too. :)
That was a magnificent gaming moment. The two celestial dogs flanked the gigantic troll skeletons, one of them tripped it, then each of them firmly clamped their jaws on opposing skeletal forearm radius bones... then the yanking began! within a mere 3 seconds the entire troll skeleton was PULLED APART, the two halves thrashing briefly before the animating magic left the carcass.
My problem with summoning is really a metagame concern -- it takes quite a bit of time at the table. First, most people casting the spells (particularly if they are not built to be a "summoner") need to look up the stats for the monster they are summoning. Then, each action after they summon the creature until it is destroyed, that player basically gets two actions (or more if they summoned additional creatures). That slows down gameplay at the table considerably, and shifts the spotlight away from the other players and to the summoner.
It would probably be fine in a small group, but once you get 5 or 6 players, summoning tends to be a Bad Idea because then every combat will take an hour or more. . .
This is one complaint about summoning I must echo. There are ways to reduce the time it takes (have ready templates, etc)
however, it still takes up quite a bit of time at the table.
My 3.5 druid's character sheet is a 3 ring binder with the needed stats of summons 4-6 to a page and color coded so I can look down a line and see the stats of my summoned creatures. I can have 2-3 different types of summons out with this method and page markers and it's pretty efficient. I copied and pasted the needed stats from the SRD into microsoft office, changed the colors of different creatures, and voila.
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That was a magnificent gaming moment. The two celestial dogs flanked the gigantic troll skeletons, one of them tripped it, then each of them firmly clamped their jaws on opposing skeletal forearm radius bones... then the yanking began! within a mere 3 seconds the entire troll skeleton was PULLED APART, the two halves thrashing briefly before the animating magic left the carcass.
They literally ripped one of the monsters to bits (nat 20, confirmed, smite evil and a high die roll plus a successful trip, then the second one did it in). I don't think acid arrow could accomplish that with one casting at that level, plus I still had another 5 rounds to do that again if the rest of the party hadn't decided to be full of win too. :)
It was good for a hoot, that's for sure. The audience loved it too. :)
Please do not post Adventure Path spoilers on boards outside of that AP board. I'm playing in Council of Thieves, and would rather not be spoiled here.
If you must, the please use spoiler tags and indicate what adventure is being spoiled.
I've been playing a 8th level wizard and a staple spell has been Summon Monster III. At the lower end when you first get SMIII a Fiendish Ape appears and equates most battles as its fearsome!
I've also used a centipede at a doorway to get AoO as people run passed. NPC stopped and started attacking it - missed it on bad roll and attacked again. Thats two rounds when the NPC would have attacked a PC.
Thirdly, a PC dropped as was coup de grace bait but he summon monster was present and focus went to it instead of the throat. One PC saved by SM.
Summoning is a very strong tactic once you reach about 3rd-4th level; by about 5th-7th level, a caster specialized in summoning spells can (almost literally) overwhelm many opponents with an army of summoned critters (especially if the caster has Scribe Scroll). Even when they don't win the battle outright, they can provide battlefield control options (flanking, blocking, grappling, tripping, flying, ranged attacks, etc.) that the party may otherwise lack/not be able to provide at that moment or augment the party's combat ability. If nothing else, extra targets for opponents to attack usually means less damage to the PCs.
Extend Spell was mentioned as a good feat to apply to summoning spells. I actually find that Enlarge Spell is usually a more useful option (changing the range from 25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels to 50 ft + 5 ft/level); a favorite tactic of many of my specialized summoners is to cast an Enlarged summoning spell to place a group of 1d3 or 1d4+1 critters next to the enemy archers and/or casters (providing AoOs and distractions); in some cases, the summoned critters will take out the "dangerous" part of the encounter before the party can get past the mooks!
Summons are weakest against single tough opponents (i.e., CR 2-3 above the party's level) because of the way that CRs scale, but even then they can be used to significantly distract/weaken the opponent rather than defeating it outright.
Nevermind. Already covered.
I notice that some of the summon options that have been mentioned thus far have been removed from the list. Unicorn, for instance, is no longer an option for the Summon Nature's Ally spell, unless I have gone blind (which is possible).
I have noticed that many (not all) of the creatures that offered versatility in the form of spell-like abilities have been removed, much to my chagrin; I see no genies, or unicorns...
Lantern archons, Hound Archons, Trumpet archons, Bralanii, Lillend, Dretch, Hell Hound, Mephit, Kyton, Xill, Erinyes, Shadow Demons, Succubus, Astral Deva, Vrock, Bone Devil, Barbed Devil, Hezrou, Ghaele, Galbrezu, Ice Devil, Nalfeshnee...