Again with this issue, I know.
Does anyone know if there has been any word from paizo regarding this?
They are extremelly weak at my opnion (and everyone else as it seems), but has there been anything to fix this? Is there going to be?
I know that there has been some homebrew, where is it? And what did u guys change when u did it, and why?
We decided to start playtesting the core classes after the release, and the Barbarian in the group is pretty low because the fighter is better in most everyway, so I'm looking for fixes, what say you? (again)
Umm , whats wrong with it??
Details on build please...because to be honest, the orc barbarian in my group makes us all look like gimps. I dont mean to say that you are doing it wrong or anything, but we might be able to give you some pointers.
Barbarian is WHAT?
Imho is a funny, balanced and really strong combat class, with a warblade esque tnat pleases me a lot! :)
|
In my experience, the Barbarian is better than it used to be. Being able to rage multiple times per day at 1st level without having to buy Extra Rage (and therefore getting to take both Power Attack and Cleave at 1st level, for a Human) made the character extremely tough.
The class may not have gotten the level of power up that the Paladin received, but, IMO, it didn't need it.
Well, let's go right into it, ok?
Rage powers are cool? Yes they are. Most of them will never see the light of day though, that bugs me. Abilities should ALWAYS be choosable for a player, soemthing like, "DAMMIT, what should I get?" That does not happen with the barbarian.
Barbarians to me, has always been about dealing damage and being resiliant. Well, they are resiliant, more HP than any class, but this is nulified almost instantly by their Low AC and the fact that your rage ends when u fall unconscious, meaning certain death beyond a certain level depending on your CON.
Now, regarding damage and all that, the fighter overates the barbarian EVERYTIME, maybe not at firt level, but once u hit 4th, it's all over and the barbarian will be left behind with any build.
The main thing is, there is mostly no practical reason to be a barbarian all the way, like lots of classes do.
Before the fighter sucked, sure, in PF that was fixed but I feel (and I'm not alone in this) that the barbarian is not on par with the fighter, which is, in the end the class it should be compared to.
Whoozewhaaat..?
I've never heard anyone put down the barbarian's strength as a class. Who is this 'everyone else' that you refer to?
A couple of the villains in my current campaign are a pair of werehyena gnoll brothers and they rocked the PCs pretty hard in the first encounter.
Granted, they are both high-Strength grapple builds (with the bite power!), so they don't depend on the same tactics or stats that most melee-types do, but still.
Their AC is lower, sure, but damage output is equivalent to a fighter's (it all really depends on build, though), plus:
- More hp, plus DR
- Faster movement speed
- More skill points, and better skill choices
- Uncanny Dodge / Imp. Uncanny Dodge
- Potential immunities (and better Will as needed)
Furthermore, they offer more utility than fighters do (high HP, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and DR means your party has a way to deal with traps if they're short a rogue; a barbarian can track and use survival in the wild if the party is short a ranger; a barbarian has perception as a class skill and can gain limited access to improved senses such as low-light vision, darkvision, and scent; higher Str, trap sense, and one-round rage makes them well-suited to forcing doors and chests in the absence of a rogue; etc).
I started a post on it a while ago because it seemed it lost its damage edge over the fighter, which was its the only reason I knew to play one from a mechanical point of view. I cant seem to relocate the thread to see what other people thought of my opinion though.
The DR seem insufficent unless you take the rage powers to increase it, and even then I dont know how much it will matter with high level monsters doing 30+ damage per hit. The skill other stuff is not enough to make it stand next to a fighter. The powers are too weak. Many of them should be one power. An example is the one that give you an AC bonus against ranged and melee attacks.
Before the fighter sucked, sure, in PF that was fixed but I feel (and I'm not alone in this) that the barbarian is not on par with the fighter, which is, in the end the class it should be compared to.
Eh.
Perhaps you haven't understood that the Barbarian in almost all instances were the "warrior" build for dealing tons of optimized damage in 3.5 (and not the fighter, which mainly were a build for spiked chain trippers). The charging leaping barbarian could one-shot almost everything back then. With PA being devalued a bit, there's still Leaping Attack and Shock Trooper out there (if you use non-core).
And Rage Powers can even out the AC penalty as well (granted you have to wait a few levels before going positive when raging, but it is there).
The fact that they get DR earlier and that it can be increased further by Rage Powers makes it really hard to wear them down.
I really do not understand you view, could you perhaps show some of your playtest examples?
Sidenote: I do like the new fighter when compared to 3.5, but since the barbarian is boosted as well (he can for one manage his resources and rage more than once at earlier levels) I fail to see how fighter outclasses the one melee class that actually was able to partly compete with tier one classes in the damage dealing compartment.
The DR seem insufficent unless you take the rage powers to increase it, and even then I dont know how much it will matter with high level monsters doing 30+ damage per hit.
DR x/- always matter. It is essentially an always on "grants x temporary extra hit points at each instance damage is taken"-ability, which really is great. AC usually never really matters in the higher levels, but DR x/- does.
Of course, further down the road, it is always about who wins initiative wins the battle. :)
Concur, they are pretty good outside of combat, compared to the fighter. Those abilities u talked about, however (scent, low-light and all) only come into play when in rage, not realy usefel when u r exploring a dungeon.
DR is good, and movement is good, unless u r using an armor that negates it, so in the end the fighter will probably move the same amount.
The fighter outdamages and hits more often than the barbarian, and doesn't get tired of doing it.
Lot's of neat abilities the Barbarian gets are once per rage only, which turns down their usefulness quite a lot.
Look, I'm not saying it's a TERRIBLE class, it's not. But the way I see it, they should be on par with the fighter in combat, which they are not. They are not even on par with the paladin and I would dare say not on par with the ranger either. That's the main issue to me.
With the right choice of rage powers, the Barbarian can actually survive being hit with a save-or-suck Will save. Unlike the poor fighter.
Yes, he does have one more chance to do it. It does not compensate for the loss of battle prowess though.
I do understand that they have neat things, but there are few choices out there, and u must be considering that he will be raging all the time, considering the limitations of rage that there are I don't think it will happen.
Before the fighter sucked, sure, in PF that was fixed but I feel (and I'm not alone in this) that the barbarian is not on par with the fighter, which is, in the end the class it should be compared to.Eh.
Perhaps you haven't understood that the Barbarian in almost all instances were the "warrior" build for dealing tons of optimized damage in 3.5 (and not the fighter, which mainly were a build for spiked chain trippers). The charging leaping barbarian could one-shot almost everything back then. With PA being devalued a bit, there's still Leaping Attack and Shock Trooper out there (if you use non-core).
And Rage Powers can even out the AC penalty as well (granted you have to wait a few levels before going positive when raging, but it is there).
The fact that they get DR earlier and that it can be increased further by Rage Powers makes it really hard to wear them down.
I really do not understand you view, could you perhaps show some of your playtest examples?
Sidenote: I do like the new fighter when compared to 3.5, but since the barbarian is boosted as well (he can for one manage his resources and rage more than once at earlier levels) I fail to see how fighter outclasses the one melee class that actually was able to partly compete with tier one classes in the damage dealing compartment.
When discussing the PF barbarian it has to stand on the merits of what PF gives it. Non-core is not allowed, and some group have dumped splat books since PF started. If it can't stand on PF's rules it needs to be improved, not that I think that will happen now.
A couple of the villains in my current campaign are a pair of werehyena gnoll brothers and they rocked the PCs pretty hard in the first encounter.Granted, they are both high-Strength grapple builds (with the bite power!), so they don't depend on the same tactics or stats that most melee-types do, but still.
[threadjack]
Rake these guys sound great - any chance of posting them?
[close threadjack]
For my 2 runes regarding the Barbarian - I've found them to be damage machines, but the low AC when raging is a kicker... I've always found those high hp to be my biggest boon...
That being said - taking vs giving damage - the Barbarian is a monster at dishing it out!
The fighter outdamages and hits more often than the barbarian, and doesn't get tired of doing it.
I disagree. A barbarian will probably have more accuracy due to a likely higher base Strength. See, as far as 'to hit' goes, rage equals Greater Weapon Focus, and a barbie can take plain old Weapon Focus too. With higher Str and Weapon Focus, and possibly more money going into his weapon, a barbie will more often than not have an attack bonus a little higher than a fighter's. Granted, barbies Power Attack a lot, but fighters are equally likely to be Power Attacking, Combat Expertising, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shotting, or some combination thereof.
[threadjack]
Rake these guys sound great - any chance of posting them?
[close threadjack]
Sure, I'll try to remember to post them (in a new thread of course) when I get home tonight.
|
Here's the thing: Barbarians are not tanks. If you put heavy or even medium armor on a barbarian, you are doing it wrong.
Barbarians do best when they play to their strengths. They can flip out and get a power boost. While flipped out, they can do various things to negate restricting effects. They also get fistfuls of hit points. They don't get access to the best armor, and they have several very nice class abilities that encourage them to wear light armor and not use a shield.
Their fortitude save is excellent, as it should be. Reflex is crappy but that's what the hit points are for. Will... well, do yourself a favor, take Iron Will, don't completely dump wisdom, and you should be fine.
Their rage powers are much maligned, but actually very valuable. These things are REALLY GOOD - being able to make a second save on a hold person or dominate only once per rage looks crappy on paper, but think about it: you've got a speed of at least 40 feet, piles of hit points, and really big ax - is the thing that you just re-saved out of going to be alive next turn, or in any position to cast it on you again?
Barbarians aren't supposed to stand still and trade full round attacks agaisnt 4-5 melee enemies. They don't have the AC. What they should do is run in, smash one or two, get the attention of the lot, then streak across the room to the spellcaster in back, leaving them to eat his dust.
You are a barbarian. your job is to be an agent of chaos.
The fighter outdamages and hits more often than the barbarian, and doesn't get tired of doing it.I disagree. A barbarian will probably have more accuracy due to a likely higher base Strength. See, as far as 'to hit' goes, rage equals Greater Weapon Focus, and a barbie can take plain old Weapon Focus too. With higher Str and Weapon Focus, and possibly more money going into his weapon, a barbie will more often than not have an attack bonus a little higher than a fighter's. Granted, barbies Power Attack a lot, but fighters are equally likely to be Power Attacking, Combat Expertising, Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shotting, or some combination thereof.
I see no reason why a Barbarian would dump any more strength than the fighter.
Considering they both have the same strength the fighter outhits and outdamages a Barbarian. That's one of my point. He is not a Damage machine anymore, not using core anyway. Besides the fighter has some neat feats that only he can get, where the barbarian has one.
When they both hit 20th. The Barbarian will have +4/+6 if 2 handed, and only while raging, the Fighter will have +6/+8 with a one handed or a two-handed. So, the damage and hit goes to the fighter... I'm not gonna even come to the AC cause that's just plain ridiculous.
Regarding DR, at this level, they both have the same one, considering BASE, not rage powers.
Another thing to consider, is that the Barbarian Strength, can be easily negated with spells and the like, of course the Fighter's can too, but the abilities he gets with weapons, cannot.
Just for thought.
Barbarian vs Fighter = Fighter win, hands down.
Barbarian vs Paladin = Paladin win. Not THAT easy, unless Barbarian is evil.
Barbarian vs Ranger = Humm... I'm inclined to say Ranger, but I don't wanna go crazy here.
At first level, the Barbarian can take'em on, at anything beyond four, I'm not so sure anymore, and that is a problem to me.
I understand that the fighter "should" win most of the time, but I'm sure the the Barbarian should win agains't the Paladin and the Ranger, mostly without a reasonable doubt.
I'm saying combat related builds, I hope you guys can prove me wrong, but I just don't see how you would do that.
I have to agree with Xum. After about level 4 and certainly after level 8 the Fighter is a far bigger offensive melee threat. He hits more for as much or more damage. And he doesn't need rage to do it.
I much preferred the rage abilities in Beta. The decent ones are all too limited now to be worth it and aside from a two level dip, I would never play a Barbarian.
I doubt the paladin would win against the barbarian. The barb just does too much damage for the paladin to heal himself fast enough. The paladin is the best defensive tank hands down but without some offensive minded allies to back him up that doesn't count for much.
The only way the ranger would win would be by kiting the barbarian and his DR would actually be of help here against the volleys of low damage arrows.
I think the barbarian could use some better rage abilites but is still a decent class.
Vaellen, glad u agree with me.
The Ranger could win, the 2 weapon fighting one.
Tha paladin would win I believe because he can heal as a swift action, his AC would be way better and he can hit as often as the Barbarian. a little low on damage, but his spells and his weapon bonuses would deal with that. Alas the Divine bound would make he deal MORE damage than the Barbarian...and I mean MUCH more.
So, again... Barbarian... FAIL!
I just want to see him shine, it's all ;)
|
|
Here's the thing: Barbarians are not tanks. If you put heavy or even medium armor on a barbarian, you are doing it wrong.
I think that anytime you tell someone who is playing a game that they are doing it wrong, especially a game with as many complexities of builds, styles, attitudes and opinions as this one has, you are the one who is "doing it wrong".
That being said, I don't think he is seeing the barbarians that I have seen. In fact I kind of wish he would come and play a fighter at my table, I would love to see one rock it out the way he is talking. I haven't seen one yet, though I believe it is possible that one could compete with a Barbarian.
Here is the thing, I think that all of the warrior types (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin) now fulfil their roles in a balanced sort of way. Can you twist them so they fill other rolls, yes and that is as it should be. But a pure fighter built for fighting's sake is going to stack up favorably with a Barbarian built for pure damage (I don't care how much I take I only care about how much I give) a Ranger (Man do I hate those!) and a Paladin (I have a special suprise for you EVIL!)
with a Barbarian built for pure damage (I don't care how much I take I only care about how much I give)
That's the thing mate, it won't. Unless you have EIGHT points more in strength AND u r in rage, u won't deal the same damage as the fighter at high level. (U gotta have the mighty rage to do that, or u would have to have TEN more points in strength)
Someone correct me if my calculations aren't correct.
A level 20 figther with 23 strength (assuming he had 18 at level 1) which gives him a +9 damage bonus to his greatsword. He also gets a +4 damage bonus from weapon training and a further +4 damage bonus from greater weapon specialization. This brings him up to a total of +17 damage.
A level 20 barbarian with 23 strength gets a +9 damage bonus to his greatsword as well, but can change that into a +15 when he goes into rage. He also gains an extra 80 hit points when raging.
It's pretty close, but let's not forget that the barbarian has on average 20 more hit points than a fighter at level 20, rage powers and more speed (which I think is a lot more important than people give it credit for). He is arguably also more useful outside of combat.
I'd say they're roughly as powerful, and in a toe to toe fight, no class should be able to best the fighter anyways.
That's the thing mate, it won't. Unless you have EIGHT points more in strength AND u r in rage, u won't deal the same damage as the fighter at high level. (U gotta have the mighty rage to do that, or u would have to have TEN more points in strength)
Err.
Fighter: weapon training 4, weapon focus x2, weapon specialization x2 - +6 attack, +8 damage.
Barbarian: weapon focus, strength +8 - +5 attack, +6 damage.
So if the barb has +2 Str over the fighter, he breaks even (at least in this admittedly shallow comparison).
Still not entirely fair for the class which is supposed to be Mr. Damage, but not quite as far off as you're suggesting.
Unless the Barbarian has a totally gimp AC from wearing light armor, then the fighter is going to be just as fast because of armor training.
It's better not to get hit then have more hps. Healing consumes resources no matter how you look at it.
A Pathfinder barbarian can wear medium armor. Quoth the PRD:
Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the barbarian's land speed.
A human barbarian at level 1 in medium armor has a movement speed of 40.
A human fighter at level 1 in medium armor has a movement speed of 20. At 3rd level this changes to a movement speed of 30. And 7th level this changes to a movement speed of 30 in heavy armor.
The barbarian is always faster.
That's the thing mate, it won't. Unless you have EIGHT points more in strength AND u r in rage, u won't deal the same damage as the fighter at high level. (U gotta have the mighty rage to do that, or u would have to have TEN more points in strength)Err.
Fighter: weapon training 4, weapon focus x2, weapon specialization x2 - +6 attack, +8 damage.
Barbarian: weapon focus, strength +8 - +5 attack, +6 damage.
So if the barb has +2 Str over the fighter, he breaks even (at least in this admittedly shallow comparison).
Still not entirely fair for the class which is supposed to be Mr. Damage, but not quite as far off as you're suggesting.
Granted, too bad he HAS to use a 2-handed right? ;)
My calculations are correct however, if using a one handed weapon.
A human barbarian at level 1 in medium armor has a movement speed of 40.
Err... re-bolding:
Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the barbarian's land speed.
|
Granted, too bad he HAS to use a 2-handed right? ;)My calculations are correct however, if using a one handed weapon.
I guess I don't understand your position. You say the barbarian is weaker than the fighter, and then when examples are given showing that the barbarian is about even, you dismiss them.
You are absolutely correct that a fighter wearing heavy armor with a sword and shield will be better than a barbarian wearing heavy armor with a sword and shield who refuses to use his class abilities of rage and fast movement.
If you want to use a sword and shield, play a fighter. If you want to wield a huge honking weapon and flank the opponent with your fighter friend to get a +2 to hit, then power attack while raging and rip the BBEG's face off...play a barbarian yeah?
If all you care about is damage output, then yes, an optimized mid-high level Fighter might outstrip a mid-high level Barbarian, perhaps if only for some of the damage dealing feats that Fighters either only get, or can access earlier.
In my opinion, there is much, much more to a character's role in a party than damage output, however. I think any class can be undermined or appear to be "useless" if all you consider is damage output. And frankly, I don't think I'd ever want to play in any RPG where damage output was the only thing considered to be important or essential to a character build. (And all that said, aside, the Barbarian can do tremendous amounts of damage even if "not as much as someone else"--but certainly more than enough to contribute well offensively.)
Even in combat, there are other important roles to consider than just damage-per-second, and you have to take into consideration not only your character's combat strengths, but also how those strengths help the rest of the party be good at what they do. For example, flanking and mobility are both extremely important in a lot of parties, which the Barbarian excels at because he has Acrobatics as a class skill, Fast Movement, and the Uncanny Dodge abilities--three things a single-classed Fighter will never get. Especially with certain builds, a party with a Barbarian and a Rogue in it can go to town keeping enemies flanked and work together as a tremendously effective damage dealing team. Even on his own, a high-level Barb can flank while not being flanked himself and that's always a good thing, especially when combined with the various abilities the Barb has while raging.
Barbarians are also tough as heck. AC can be a problem, but in my opinion, there's essentially two ways of building a character defensively (with many variants of course): the first way is to avoid ever getting hit (lots of AC); the second way is to be able to take a hit and keep going (lots of HP and DR). A lot of fighter (and melee rogue, etc.) builds focus on the first, or with fighters sometimes a mix of the two. With the right build, you can do the first, but I think Barbarians are well suited to the second way--they have great hit dice, their con goes up even higher when raging. They get things like damage reduction which can be extremely useful.
Yes, there is that one caveat--if you get dropped unconscious during a fight, you can lose your extra con and die. But if you've maxed out Con, you've got a long way into negative hit points before you die; I really think if you're making a meatshield Barbarian, the times that that character is going to be at risk of death will be few and far between. If you're terribly concerned about it, make a half-orc and use Orc Ferocity to help out with that; other feats and the like might help as well. And I also think that risk is a fair give and take for the great abilities you get when raging to begin with.
And even as far as getting hit goes, the Barbarian's Uncanny Dodge helps keep him from getting hit when other characters (like the Fighter in fact) might be at a disadvantage.
Barbarians are also versatile outside of combat with more skills than the Fighter, and more skill points. If your party has no Ranger or Druid, your Barbarian is going to be the one helping you survive the best in the wilderness; if you do have a Ranger or Druid, he can still help out Aiding Another and being a secondary lookout. When dungeoncrawling, his trap sense and Perception scores are going to help him survive and contribute to the party (why not send him out scouting with the party rogue, so the rogue has a bodyguard while she looks for traps? And if you have no rogue, just have the Barbarian intentionally step on the trap and take it--he'll likely be fine ;) ).
And they can be helluva lot of fun to roleplay, with a lot more built in flavor than some other classes.
You can't look at one aspect of a class and decide from that one thing that a class sucks, or is worse than another class. You have to take them as a whole, how they contribute to a party in and out of combat, how they make good team members overall. And with regards to that, I think Barbarians do just fine.
Granted, too bad he HAS to use a 2-handed right? ;)My calculations are correct however, if using a one handed weapon.
I guess I don't understand your position. You say the barbarian is weaker than the fighter, and then when examples are given showing that the barbarian is about even, you dismiss them.
You are absolutely correct that a fighter wearing heavy armor with a sword and shield will be better than a barbarian wearing heavy armor with a sword and shield who refuses to use his class abilities of rage and fast movement.
If you want to use a sword and shield, play a fighter. If you want to wield a huge honking weapon and flank the opponent with your fighter friend to get a +2 to hit, then power attack while raging and rip the BBEG's face off...play a barbarian yeah?
My calculation ARE counting the rage. Without it, it's not even funny. I'm not dismissing anything, I'm saying that the fighter outdamages and outhits the barbarian everytime, EVEN with a 2 handed weapon.
If we go into detail adding rage powers we would have to go in detail selecting the fighter feats, and the feats will simply devastate any comparison.
A human barbarian at level 1 in medium armor has a movement speed of 40.Err... re-bolding:
Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the barbarian's land speed.
Haha whoops. I was primarily reinforcing that the barbie gets medium armor. :-)
A human barbarian at level 1 in medium armor has a movement speed of 40.Err... re-bolding:
Yes, a Barbarian in Medium Armor would have an effective Move Speed of 30', still faster than the Fighter @ 20'. The Fighter catches up once they get Armor Training 1 at 3rd level, but 3 levels of Fighter are a great idea for Barbarians for this very reason (as well as Tumbling). With those 3 levels you can also wear Mithril Heavy Armor for the same effect.
I'm not sure about the argument of Weapon Training. Sure, it's great, but isn't the always-trotted-out argument that to-hit eventually outpaces AC? So it's whole advantage would lie in the lower Iterative attacks (on a Full Attack) - see below.
If you don't like the AC penalty, I suggest using the "Whirling Frenzy" variant Barbarian from Unearthed Arcana, which works completely fine with the PRPG Barbarian. The extra Iterative Attack (based on full BAB) probably counter-acts Fighters' Weapon Training advantage as well. Hopefully we see an 'officially blessed' version of this in the APG, but the UA version works fine.
But yeah... Barbarians "have to" use 2-Handed Weapons. I'm going to cry now.
My main issue with barbarians is that rage scales poorly. +4 to two stats is an enormous boost at 1st level, but +6 to two stats is kind of lacklustre later on. Instead, I scale them as follows:
Level : Ability Boost
1st-4th : +2
5th-9th: +4
10th-14th: +6
15th-19th: +8
20th: +10
If all you care about is damage output, then yes, an optimized mid-high level Fighter might outstrip a mid-high level Barbarian, perhaps if only for some of the damage dealing feats that Fighters either only get, or can access earlier.
In my opinion, there is much, much more to a character's role in a party than damage output, however. I think any class can be undermined or appear to be "useless" if all you consider is damage output. And frankly, I don't think I'd ever want to play in any RPG where damage output was the only thing considered to be important or essential to a character build. (And all that said, aside, the Barbarian can do tremendous amounts of damage even if "not as much as someone else"--but certainly more than enough to contribute well offensively.)
Even in combat, there are other important roles to consider than just damage-per-second, and you have to take into consideration not only your character's combat strengths, but also how those strengths help the rest of the party be good at what they do. For example, flanking and mobility are both extremely important in a lot of parties, which the Barbarian excels at because he has Acrobatics as a class skill, Fast Movement, and the Uncanny Dodge abilities--three things a single-classed Fighter will never get. Especially with certain builds, a party with a Barbarian and a Rogue in it can go to town keeping enemies flanked and work together as a tremendously effective damage dealing team. Even on his own, a high-level Barb can flank while not being flanked himself and that's always a good thing, especially when combined with the various abilities the Barb has while raging.
Barbarians are also tough as heck. AC can be a problem, but in my opinion, there's essentially two ways of building a character defensively (with many variants of course): the first way is to avoid ever getting hit (lots of AC); the second way is to be able to take a hit and keep going (lots of HP and DR). A lot of fighter (and melee rogue, etc.) builds focus on the first,...
As I stated several times, I don't think they SUCK, I do know about the classes strengths and i like em, I even like that rage ends when u fall unconscious, although it's tough stuff to handle.
What I do NOT like is that MOST rage powers blatantly SUCK and the fact that he ALWAYS loses to the fighter and probably the paladin, do too. That's my "beef" with the class as a whole. They only got the Rage powers as something extra from 3.5, and most of them are not usable as they should be, this my friends, is something VERY important to look at.
|
|
That's the thing mate, it won't. Unless you have EIGHT points more in strength AND u r in rage, u won't deal the same damage as the fighter at high level. (U gotta have the mighty rage to do that, or u would have to have TEN more points in strength)Err.
Fighter: weapon training 4, weapon focus x2, weapon specialization x2 - +6 attack, +8 damage.
Barbarian: weapon focus, strength +8 - +5 attack, +6 damage.
So if the barb has +2 Str over the fighter, he breaks even (at least in this admittedly shallow comparison).
Still not entirely fair for the class which is supposed to be Mr. Damage, but not quite as far off as you're suggesting.
Granted, too bad he HAS to use a 2-handed right? ;)
My calculations are correct however, if using a one handed weapon.
Why would a barbarian with such a massive bonus to strength NOT switch to two-handing a weapon?
I had a dwarven barb-fighter in 3.5 that I was very fond of. He wore mithril full plate (giving up the speed bonus) and carried a heavy shield. Even with all of that, when he raged, he still dropped the shield and went two-handed on his waraxe, because it was just so much more effective.
Now I'll freely admit that barbarians need rage powers that are more interesting, but they don't need much of a power boost. A power like "once per rage you can charge through enemies and not in a straight line" is something they really do need, but it's not game-breaking.
But the Barbarian was NEVER a match for the Fighter in a straight up, toe to toe fight. He's not meant to be. He's got more skills, non-damage focused class abilities (like uncanny dodge) and rage powers with dynamic non-damage-dealing uses. So of course he loses. His abilities put him closer to a muscle bound version of the monk or rogue than a straight up warrior like Fighters and Paladins.
If you try to play a barbarian the way you'd play a fighter, it is not going to work. I think that's the fundamental problem with how you are approaching the class. It's not a fighter. If you want a class that fights the way the fighter fights, play a fighter. If you like some of the things in the barbarian but want it to play more like a fighter, multiclass. The system is flexible for a reason, and each class fits together in a different way.
We maybe play a different kind of game than some folks but the barbarian NPC my players created and share around for our RotR campaign is kicking butt and taking names. I like the rage powers and maybe some of thme "won't see the light of day" if every choice for your character *must* be the absolute best mechanically, I think my player are happy with it because they don't mind taking a small performance hit for flavor that fits their concepts. But, then again, I am not as DM maximizing everything against them so that they feel the need to do that.
M
I agree with many posts there, but I do not agree with the fact that the Barbarian should be the "third best" in the warrior clsses. Staying in the same level as the Ranger does not fit in my senses.
I do agree that they DO NOT need a major boost Zurai, I do, but something along the lines of the Powers would be all we need to make it on par with what it is "suposed" to be.
As I stated several times, I don't think they SUCK, I do know about the classes strengths and i like em, I even like that rage ends when u fall unconscious, although it's tough stuff to handle.
What I do NOT like is that MOST rage powers blatantly SUCK and the fact that he ALWAYS loses to the fighter and probably the paladin, do too. That's my "beef" with the class as a whole. They only got the Rage powers as something extra from 3.5, and most of them are not usable as they should be, this my friends, is something VERY important to look at.
I never said you think they suck. I was saying that damage output is not the only way to judge a barbarian, in comparison to a fighter or anyone else. This is in response to the things you said, like
Now, regarding damage and all that, the fighter overates the barbarian EVERYTIME, maybe not at firt level, but once u hit 4th, it's all over and the barbarian will be left behind with any build.
And
The fighter outdamages and hits more often than the barbarian, and doesn't get tired of doing it.
And
Considering they both have the same strength the fighter outhits and outdamages a Barbarian. That's one of my point. He is not a Damage machine anymore, not using core anyway.
And
My calculation ARE counting the rage. Without it, it's not even funny. I'm not dismissing anything, I'm saying that the fighter outdamages and outhits the barbarian everytime, EVEN with a 2 handed weapon.
And I think my post stands in response to these things that you said.
But as for "Rage Powers," the term "suck" is a little vague. Of course perhaps you've had bad experience with choice of rage powers in play; I've had trouble telling that. Personally, based on reading the class description, I would say that some are better than others, some are campaign/circumstance dependent. For example, Raging Swimmer is probably not one a lot of people would take as a rule, but damn it would be nice in a campaign with a nautical setting. The ones that grant you Scent and special vision are going to be more useful if you're often fighting in certain areas with a lot of creatures hidden in darkness--great for an Underdark campaign, maybe not so much for a desert one.
Others like Increased Damage Reduction will always be useful; Guarded Stance helps that AC issue talked about in this thread earlier. A number of the rage abilities that render you immune to various conditions like shaken or sickened are going to come in handy versus all kinds of monsters and spellcasters, as will Clear Mind that lets you reroll will saves--and since you bring up the Paladin, I would say these are on par with the paladin mercies that cure conditions, neither better nor worse. Mighty Swing is awesome if you've focused on a Crit build. Intimidating Glare and its followup Terrifying Howl could be very useful, especially if your GM allows you to use them in conjunction with the Dazzling Display feat tree abilities.
Sure, a lot of the abilities are circumstantial, and if anything--Barbarians have to think about build and resource consumption more than they did in 3.5. That makes them harder to play, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
If you've had specifically bad experiences with Rage Powers that you'd like to share, I'd love to hear your actual, in-game examples of how you think these abilities suck.
|
Well I seemed like the right place to put this. So would it be feasible to uncrease his damage output a bit with this (which i plan on using for my homebrew world).
Reckless Ofense (instead of trap sense) They get a bonus on damage rolls while raging equal to the trap sense they would otherwise get. However every round that you use this bonus you take a penalty to your hit points equal to the bonus they would get.
How does that sound?
Well I seemed like the right place to put this. So would it be feasible to uncrease his damage output a bit with this (which i plan on using for my homebrew world).
Reckless Ofense (instead of trap sense) They get a bonus on damage rolls while raging equal to the trap sense they would otherwise get. However to do this they must sacrifice a number of hit points equal to the bonus they would get.
How does that sound?
I don't like it. Cause they already take TONS of damage, with that as a plus they would be downed very quickly I believe.
DeathQuaker, I understand and respect your opnion very much.
The main problem I see with the rage powers are the uses, the once per rage leads to a ridiculous situation when u hit 17 level, when u enter a rage, make all attacks u have to with the abilities and end it at the end of those, and do it all over again the following round. By RAW u could do it... and that also "sucks"
The fact that there are nice abilities that add to hit and damage are "negated" with the once per rage and since lots of abilities now work for all attacks, why this ones doesn't is beyond me. In my believe, maybe those abilities should be like the defensive ones and all those should be activated as a swift action.
I like the IDEA of the rage powers, and have seen it way before PF came out, but at the end of the day, u will almost always choose the same ones. That bugs me.
This is why I toss out the "Fighter" Only feats...and let anyone take them...The fighter doesn't need two sets of Fighter only bonuses...
I tried to get that changed during beta, but it didn't fly...
This is why I toss out the "Fighter" Only feats...and let anyone take them...The fighter doesn't need two sets of Fighter only bonuses...
The fighter needs everything he can get! But so do all the martial classes.
This is why I toss out the "Fighter" Only feats...and let anyone take them...The fighter doesn't need two sets of Fighter only bonuses...
I tried to get that changed during beta, but it didn't fly...
I like some fighter only feats (Specialization and the following) But that's about it. Maybe the ignoring dr one too. Don't know. But the "anti-mage" should be open specially to the Barbarian, Superstition anyone?
Its overlooked that barbarians can act in surprise rounds (perception), and I for one think all barbarians should take track as well.
Low Level the damage is about the same.
High level they suffer.... BUT .. at high level play we ALL know spells dictate most everything. Lets face it the barbarians high will saves and HP totals serve FAR better vs casters then better AC and low will.Also there are hidden gems in the rage powers.
Between Superstition and Clear mind your no mages butt monkey.
No escape means none escape.. useful if you DM EVER has things run.. many don't.
Between Fearless Rage and Internal Fortitude at high level play when fighters are constantly terrifying and sickening each other with fancy pants feats you can go on unamused and angry that they would try.
Scent means the hidden or invisible is no longer unassailable.
Unexpected Strike is one free attack every combat.Barbarians are NOT meant to win standing toe to toe with a fighter in the middle of a baseball diamond. not a surprise..a class feature for both. They have their own advantages that need to be played towards. Less so than 3.5 does playing one as STAND AND HACK work. Now one needs some animal cunning to find your advantage if your parties fighters are damage oriented or you want a long life.
The one level dip for pure mechanics tho does undermine the barbarian some. They should have spread out their 1st level abilities over 3 levels like with rangers 3rd to 3.5 ed.
You named the best rage powers, anyone would take em,Superstition is something of a backlash depending on the amount of healing and buffs the party delivers, but it pretty good. Unexpected strike is good, considering someone aproaches you, which often doesn't happen when u r playing a Barbarian, U usually move in to smash. ;)
I understand that goind toe to toe with the fighter is insane, but is it insane going toe-to-toe with a paladin?