|
A better analogy would be someone who believes Vampires are not undead, but alive and merely afflicted by an ongoing curse.
They'd be wrong, but it's possible to see how they might reach that conclusion (curses exist which do some pretty upsetting things, and vampires do start out as people). Accordingly, they'd treat vampires differently, seeing them as more innocent victims than freakish monsters.
Same thing with hypothetical atheist. They accept the presence, but deny the nature of the Gods, and accordingly treat them differently.
Consider it from a legal standpoint. If a wizard shoots a commoner with a lightning bolt, killing him, that's murder. The wizard would be condemned and hopefully jailed.
If a God shoots a commoner with a lightning bolt, that's not murder, it's divine judgment. Many might even assume the commoner did something to deserve it. No one condemns the God for his behavior because he's a God.
Our hypothetical atheist would disagree, seeing this 'God' as basically being an overpowered bully.
I'm not really arguing that said Wizard would be wrong as much as saying how mentally limited said Wizard would have to be. Not understanding the scope of understanding said overpowered bullies would have (such as seeing the future or understanding that said commoner might need to die for a reason), and try to force everyone else to think like them, or rather with their standards, (where it relates to anything outside the self).
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
I'm not really arguing that said Wizard would be wrong as much as saying how mentally limited said Wizard would have to be. Not understanding the scope of understanding said overpowered bullies would have (such as seeing the future or understanding that said commoner might need to die for a reason), and try to force everyone else to think like them, or rather with their standards, (where it relates to anything outside the self).
The point isn't that the commoner might be better off dead, the point is that a deity is not held to the same moral standard as a mortal.
That's the difference between a being with god-like powers and a god.
As for being mentally limited, I suppose that's one way a person might reach the conclusion that Gods aren't actually Deific in Nature, but there are certainly others. For one, I'd point to a Major event in the history of Golarion, the Death Of Aroden.
I suppose you would have to determine a few things in order to know if a character can reasonably be an atheist without that call being targeted as metagaming:
-Can a character realistically go through his life without solid or at least highly compelling evidence that there are divine powers?
-Do deities purposedly go after atheists in order to make sure "no soul is wasted"?
-Is there a chance a character could reasonably interpretate the doings of a divinity as either natural events or the result of a very powerful, yet not divine, individual?
-Do characters who are implicit atheists feel any different from theist ones? (implicit atheism is that born out of lack of knowledge. For instance, if someone's parents raised him without any kind of information about religion or spirituality, that person could be considered implicitly atheist. Though then is the question if that person will or not individually develop spirituality).
-And finally, is there room for believing yet atheist characters? Meaning, can a character believe in something trascendent that is not a deity by itself? (such as believing in fate or in the spirits of your ancestres).
I'd say that the only way through which a character would be reasonably and non-metagamingly atheist would be if there was a way for him not to be exposed to the showcasing of divine power (which, while highly unlikely in a world filled with spellcasting clerics, miracles and walking dead, could potentially happen in specific circumstances) and if there is no higher force purposedly trying to avoid people from becoming atheists. Either that, or the character has to be particularly bold/foolish to reject the gods knowing what they can accomplish. But even that seems a bit shaky, since one thing is to say you don't believe in something, and another to actually not believe in it (I mean, as hard as we try, it is hard to truly not believe we're sitting in front of a computer as we check these forums. Would be the same way for a character witnessing demonstrations of divine power).
Majikthise: I mean, what's the use of our sitting around half the night arguing whether there may...
Vroomfondel: Or may not.
Majikthise: ...be a God, if this machine only goes and gives you his phone number in the morning?
Vroomfondel: That's right! We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
I think most RPGs have a concrete relationship with various deities or potential deities. In the presence of observable phenomenon atheism is not credible. Hating the Gods, rejecting them or being ignorant of them is reasonable but not atheism.
Too many spells, rituals, events are directly tied to deities that can be communicated with. The intervention of a deity would communicate a sense of will and the deities identity. I don't think you can experience that (easily) in the real world. In a real sense the settings give you the deities name and phone number.
Of course many people are insane or delusional. Some might be rejected by dominant deities and simply not find divine magic work for _them_. Its perfectly possible to be an atheist but it must be very rare and mostly misguided.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
...In the presence of observable phenomenon atheism is not credible. Hating the Gods, rejecting them or being ignorant of them is reasonable but not atheism...
Depends on how you define Atheism. Personally, I use the bare bones "without god" definition, which would include those who reject or are ignorant of the gods. YMMV.
|
I find it interesting that this thread should pop up not two days after I was discussing it with KnightErrantJr prior to our game. That said, here are my two cents on the issue...
More or less, an atheist (not a skeptic who questions it all, not an apathetic individual who really couldn't care less, not an agnostic who feels there's more to it than what's offered, but an atheist who denies the existence of and outright refuses to believe in deities) in any fantasy setting that has tangible deities is delusional.
Even ignorance is hardly an excuse:
- in the Forgotten Realms, Faerun has upwards of 120 deities listed in Faiths and Pantheons, and those are just the ones who haven't died in the past 50 years. Their portfolios vary from "Kicking ass for the Lord" to "Prostitutes are cool" to "Being secluded from the rest of the world" to "We're nihilists." I would just like to reiterate that even the nihilists have a deity. Good God.
- Pathfinder's Gods and Magic lists about 60 deities for Golarion, roughly half of FR's but with one or two more domains per head, and less domains overlapping. Still a hefty number, even for a polytheism.
Regardless of the definition of what "is" is, any individual who can actively observe the reality of something, and persists in claiming that said 'something' does not exist is generally considered delusional.
And that's my stance on the subject, in a nutshell. Nothing special, really. But what I find most interesting about these discussions aren't the opinions concerning the subject, the so-called 'punishment' is set in stone and I can think whatever I like about it (so can you, if you'd like), but eso si que es.
What interests me the most are the theories about "why?" Which, admittedly, I never really put any thought into until I spoke to KEJ, and then read his Blog, and while the settings themselves don't go into that sort of detail/depth on something so esoteric (or something ever really considered as far as actual gameplay goes, and admittedly the depth won't ever truly have that big an impact on gameplay with the exception of the odd resurrection or two), it's really interesting to consider.
Honestly, I'd like to see what any of the Paizo guys - and anybody else - have to say about the why's if they were so inclined.
|
No one ever said the universe has to be fair. Sorry, i dont have much time to properly articulate this statement: 4chan's /tg/ has ruined me.
Now, consider the info in Book of the Damned:
Gods are sort-of evolved spiritual beings, with various different outlooks and powers, squabbling amongst themselves, in a universe that is otherwise uncaring and undirected regarding mortal life. A spot of light in a cold void full of tentacles.
If nihlistic damaged souls are the only way to stop a mysterious apocalypse being from destroying the man transit station of the afterlife, I'd say tossing the occasional being to it is...justified, given no other option. This is the fate of damaged, insane people who didnt just deny the existance of the gods, they denyed their own nature as something greater than they gross physical. the lack of awe, of spirituality, damaged them beyond repair. in life, they failed to grow as people.
In our world, we have no evidence of a greater beyondness, so such a intellectual position is justifed. it doesnt stop staunch rationalists from beleiving in things like trust and justice and kindness, loving other people, and having a sense of awe and wonder at the universe.
Normal, sane atheists who just didnt much like the gods arent left high and dry. they have the right to go where they want. there's just no one to help them along, so they have to rely on themselves. some arent strong enough. nature-folks get re-incarnated, sciency self-reliant folks get to explore infinity, with all it's horrors and wonders (probably banding together with other free-roamers)
Worshipers get, in exchange for their beleif, access to the celestial beurocracy, a patron to argue for them, and the express train to their afterlife. the tradeoff is less freedom, and the possibility that you were raised to follow a douchebag god (like asmodeus) who kind of misrepresents himself to his worshipers. Atheists didnt pay anyone anything, and their reward is freedom.
Freedom isnt always good.
Plus, I have to say this: alot of atheists come upon their atheism due to a disgust with organized religion, and the discovery that, without a religion telling you what to think, there's really no particular reason to beleive in any gods. Instead, there's science and ethics, and secular humanism, and the search for knowledge and understanding, and all that shite.
A real-world atheist stuck in a fantasy setting wouldnt be an atheist, he'd be irreligious, and just not like the gods much, or not see them as Divine in the omipotent, infallible sense. which, I feel, is a reasonable stance.
Or they'd suck it up and pick a diety, since some of them are Pretty Cool Guys.
Since this thread kinda got off topic and wandered into comparative earth religions, I didn't bother to read through every post to see if the original question had been answered: What happens to atheists on Golarion?
This has been answered in Gods and Magic and Beyond the Vault of Souls.
Unclaimed souls are transformed by their owners own hardened hearts into fragile, magical jewels. These are stored in vaults under Pharasma's Boneyard, where the strength of their disbelief acts as a repellent to Groetus, keeping the god of the end times from reaching the Boneyard and beginning the end of the world.
So it's a good thing there are atheists in Golarion. But I wouldn't want to be one!
|
|
Or they'd suck it up and pick a diety, since some of them are Pretty Cool Guys.
Sup Fa/tg/uy.
Ok, ok, no more chanspeak from me, but the quoted text above reminded me of something I sadly forgot to mention in my original post:
Though it is heavily implied, there is no such thing as "blind faith" when it comes to these kinds of worlds. It is a matter of give and take:
A system of exchange wherein you, the petitioner, gain access to preferential treatment, the preservation of your immortal soul in your own personal idea of paradise (worship Sharess for the best afterlife you'll ever freaking have) and a nifty membership card. What do you have to do in return for this? Pray, perform acts that the deity in question promotes, and die. This isn't secret draconic information, just ask your local priest and he'll explain the process with some measure of alacrity.