Artificer's Touch

[paul halcott]

Greatings all. A few weeks back I posted a related question. Now I am trying to work through the mechanics of it.

Basically, the party's Cleric has the Artificers Touch power through one of his domains. Now, he has started talking about using that ability to target the gear of the bad guys. If and when he does it, is it safe to assume that:

1) the power would cause this to be an 'armed' unarmed attack, much like touch range spells, and as such this part does not provoke an AoO?
2) it would be an attempt to Sunder, and as such this part would provoke the AoO?

If I am wrong on my first assumption, and he tried this trick on someone with Combat reflexes, would he be subject to 2 AoO's (one from attacking unarmed and one from Sunder) or is the sunder considered just part of the attack and as such is truely just one action with one AoO coming at him?

He has also talked about possibly taking a level in rogue. Would the Sneak damage also add to this. I have always assumed if a caster/rogue hit with a touch spell on a sneak, it applied, so why would/would not this be the case? My first thought is it should stack. Is it far fetched that his God might have given him insight into an unseen weakness in the item? On the other hand, as he advances, that could be a hassle to deal with.

Regardless of the oppinions on weather this is a good or bad plan on the players part, it is how he is planning his character, so please stick to the relevant details and avoid any issue on TO or sub-optimal builds or any of the other metagaming concepts.
Thanks in advance

[The Grandfather]

paul halcott wrote:

Greatings all. A few weeks back I posted a related question. Now I am trying to work through the mechanics of it.

Basically, the party's Cleric has the Artificers Touch power through one of his domains. Now, he has started talking about using that ability to target the gear of the bad guys. If and when he does it, is it safe to assume that:

1) the power would cause this to be an 'armed' unarmed attack, much like touch range spells, and as such this part does not provoke an AoO?
2) it would be an attempt to Sunder, and as such this part would provoke the AoO?

The cleric can indeed do that with the articifers touch, but it is a melee touch attack and does not provoke an AoO.

It is not a sunder attack either.

paul halcott wrote:

If I am wrong on my first assumption, and he tried this trick on someone with Combat reflexes, would he be subject to 2 AoO's (one from attacking unarmed and one from Sunder) or is the sunder considered just part of the attack and as such is truely just one action with one AoO coming at him?

Even if it was an unarmed sunder attack it could never provoke more than 1 AoO. To provoke more than 1 AoO the character has to do it in different instances, I.e. moving and sundering. Standing up from prone and casting a spell. Those are all different instances. Attackink is only one instance, even if there are several elements that all would provoke an AoO.

paul halcott wrote:

He has also talked about possibly taking a level in rogue. Would the Sneak damage also add to this. I have always assumed if a caster/rogue hit with a touch spell on a sneak, it applied, so why would/would not this be the case? My first thought is it should stack. Is it far fetched that his God might have given him insight into an unseen weakness in the item? On the other hand, as he advances, that could be a hassle to deal with.

Items are immune to critical hits and can not be sneak attacked. If it where a construct that was not immune it could be done.

[paul halcott]

So I did a little digging and drew some parallels to existing spells and their mechanics.
Rusting Grasp (Druid 4) says specifically it can be use in this way. If you go at the armor, you are fine, but if you go at the weapon, it says you will draw an AoO. I think I will use that precedent. If for no other reason then it might keep this from becoming a common occurrence. He can do it, but it might cost him.

As far as not being able to do precision damage on items, while I agree, I would like to be able to back my play with something more then a simple 'I dont like it so no.' Could you point me to it in the book. I have looked under the combat section and the rogue class description and cant find a direct statement of that. Maybe I'll check the equipment section next.

[paul halcott]

Never mind . I found it in chapter 7 about not being subject to crits, but isnt this different then a crit?

[The Grandfather]

paul halcott wrote:

Never mind . I found it in chapter 7 about not being subject to crits, but isnt this different then a crit?

Not really. For two reasons.

1 - All creatures that are immune to critical hits are not affected by sneak attack either (see PB)
2 - The sneak attack ability affects creatures/opponents. An inanimate object is not a creatuere/opponent.

[paul halcott]

As I read up on this more, it seems that, as a apell like ability, the act of using this ability in a threatened square would provoke an AoO. With this in mind can a spell like ability be used defensivly like casting a spell? I assume that if it can, then feats like combat casting would work with it.

[The Grandfather]

paul halcott wrote:

As I read up on this more, it seems that, as a apell like ability, the act of using this ability in a threatened square would provoke an AoO. With this in mind can a spell like ability be used defensivly like casting a spell? I assume that if it can, then feats like combat casting would work with it.

I do not believe that spell-like abilities are subject to the normal concentration rules. No where is it said that damage interrupts the user or that they can be "cast" defensively.

[ShadowChemosh]

The Grandfather wrote:

I do not believe that spell-like abilities are subject to the normal concentration rules. No where is it said that damage interrupts the user or that they can be "cast" defensively.

Spell-like abilites are in almost every way exactly like a spell. The only difference is that they have no verbal, somatic, or material component. So just like a spell they can be interrupted, they can be cast defensively, and like a spell they provoke AoO's.

A creature's writeup will list the caster level of the spell-like ability and in PFRPG that gives you the Concentration roll.

[The Grandfather]

ShadowChemosh wrote:

Spell-like abilites are in almost every way exactly like a spell. The only difference is that they have no verbal, somatic, or material component. So just like a spell they can be interrupted, they can be cast defensively, and like a spell they provoke AoO's.

A creature's writeup will list the caster level of the spell-like ability and in PFRPG that gives you the Concentration roll.

Please tell me where it states that SA can be interupted and that they can be cast defensively.

[Aidenstone]

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Using a spell-like ability
works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration
and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities
can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the
attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as
if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like
ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description
notes otherwise.

Located in the PHB p 186

While the casting would provide AoO the touch attack would not. Thus if he were smart he would cast the spell while 5' away make his 5' move and discharge the spell against his oponent. Sounds like something I may begin trying with one of my characters.

[Aidenstone]

oh and missing is not an issue, and neither is casting at distance and closing according to the touch attack rules. on PHB p185

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell
is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does
not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a
spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity.
Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks
and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with
either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your
opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any
armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His
size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and def lection bonus (if
any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell
in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the
charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch
attacks round after round. If you touch anything or
anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the
spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell
dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action
or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively,
you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with
a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case,
you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of
opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed
attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke
attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the
attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed
attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the
attack misses, you are still holding the charge.