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So I was working through getting ready for the mighty jailcart-break scene and was thinking. I'm not a huge fan that Shanwen is a Cleric. To me while it can make sense, I just don't feel like he should be a cleric. So I've thought long and hard about it and decided to "upgrade" him to a Cavalier for playtest purposes, and because it sounds fun.
Here are my questions for the lot of you:
1. I know why he was set to level 1 in the module, but every time I look at the Cavalier class I really want to make him level 2 to try out more than just the challenge ability. I realize this might up the hit-point total a bit, but my group is fairly tough (and now level 2), so I think they could take it. Comments?
2. If I make him level 2 the order he's a part of becomes a bigger deal. I was thinking Order of the Lion with allegiance to the Hellknights. It says you swear allegiance to a liege, and this would seem appropriate, but I'm not sure if that was the intent.
3. I feel he should start out the encounter with the Justice Oath fulfilled (he had just taken down Arawen, which would have fulfilled this Oath. Does this seem appropriate? I know he will probably drop the oath when he swears another oath of justice against one of the PCs during the combat, but it might come into play early on.
4. Should I have him mounted, or keep him on the cart? I really like the idea of him taking over the balista, but I was thinking horseback might be fun. My only thought is that since the PCs are horrible horse-riders, this might not work so well.
Any thoughts on my thoughts?
Bump him to level two. Please. The EL of the Hellknight Rescue encounter is very screwy--it takes into account the CRs of the heavy horses that the hellknights can't ride and can't direct to fight--and they're not even war-trained!
Any thoughts on my thoughts?
Don't know about the Cavalier (I haven't paid it much mind yet.) But definitely upgrade him to level 2! I'd go higher...I had six PCs and upgraded him to Cleric 3 to make it a bit more of a fight. It was over in five rounds and only one character needed healing. Total NPC-wipe.
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So I did some thinking and I've come up with what I'm planning to do (still though, please provide feeback if you have any, since I don't play until tomorrow night).
1. Shanwen is going to be a level 2 Cavalier. I decided upon level 2 simply because my group is only four large and anything higher seems like overkill. He also has his mount (mentioned below) which is quite tough in its own right. If things get too tough, Arawen will act as the group's ringer, since he's capable of using selective channel positive energy from within the prison coach.
2. I've decided (as DM) that Shanwen's Order of the Lion allegiance is appropriate and that's the one I'm planning on running for him. His two powers won't be outrageously overpowered (+1 AC to anybody he's sworn an oath against and +1 on to-hit for allies within 60 feet). It feels appropriate for the character.
3. Since the Oath of Justice benefit lasts for 24 hours, the fact that he had just completed an oath against Arawen may or may not be in place depending on how quickly the PCs need to act. If they really feel they need a day or so to rest and recover, I'll just let Arawen rot in a jail cell in town for a few days, otherwise they'll be transporting him within the 24 hour window and the oath would still stand.
4. I've decided that Shanwen really needs to be mounted. Getting him off his high horse (pun intended) might be one of the most important things the PCs do. Also, the Paladin's ride skill isn't awful, and I'll just make sure to let the PCs have at least one combat trained mount in those they borrow (since I don't think they'll be willing to spend their own gold on the horses).
Wish me luck.
So I did some thinking and I've come up with what I'm planning to do (still though, please provide feeback if you have any, since I don't play until tomorrow night).
What level are your PCs? I just ran this encounter with five 1st level PCs. They got through it well, but only due to some highly effective uses of color spray, fear, daze, and irresistible laughter. First round took out Shanwen, the driver, and both horses for 11 rounds. I think the PCs fled after 10. He never got a spell or shot off the entire encounter. They also managed to keep whoever was manning the ballista from taking a shot with the other spells.
I had 3 of the 4 dismounted Hellknights arrive on the scene around round 7, and the wizard took them all out with his last color spray.
Even with good luck and tactics, 3 of the 5 PCs got into negative hit points during the battle, and they didn't have time do anything aside from open the carriage (got lucky on disable device on the first try) and run.
The only change I made to the encounter was to give all of the Hellknights a +2 stat bump for being human. It looked like they were just vanilla NPCs using the normal or heroic stats (for Shanwen), but didn't have a racial boost applied. I gave the armigers +2 to Str, which gave them another +1 to hit, and +2 to damage, since they could wield their swords two handed. This meant power attack was +2 (1d8+6) and did serious damage.
If I overjuiced the encounter, my plan was to have Janiven and a couple others help them out with ranged attacks, but I didn't need to go there.
This is one of those encounters where if your PCs don't play it right, or have bad luck, it can go south in a hurry. My group had a great party makeup that let everyone optimize their skills while augmenting each other, so I felt good about pushing it a bit.
If your party is only 4 1st level PCs, having Shanwen be a 2nd level mounted foe will be too much, IMHO. If nothing else, they'll be forced to target Shanwen once or twice with their best spells, which will leave the armigers unaffected.
If your party is 2nd level, I think they'll be okay. The extra HP and spells should get them through the encounter. My group was more or less tapped out when the fight ended, although they had some healing left if needed.
Wish me luck.
Break a PC! :-).
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What level are your PCs?
If your party is only 4 1st level PCs, having Shanwen be a 2nd level mounted foe will be too much, IMHO. If nothing else, they'll be forced to target Shanwen once or twice with their best spells, which will leave the armigers unaffected.
If your party is 2nd level, I think they'll be okay. The extra HP and spells should get them through the encounter. My group was more or less tapped out when the fight ended, although they had some healing left if needed.
The PCs will be level 2 (as suggested in the module). I know there's some differing opinions in the module as to what level they're supposed to be (the sewers state they should be level 2 when leaving the sewers, the Bastards section says they should be level 2 when starting the bastards), but I decided to go with the level 2 option after the sewers. This is part of the reason I'm okay with the scaling. I believe the party HP totals should be approximately 21, 19, 16, 14 (paladin, ranger, sorcerer, rogue respectively).
The sorcerer has access to color spray, and I have a feeling they'll go with the plan to split up the convoy. I'm not too worried about the lack of a cleric as Arawen and their little stash of CLW potions from the sewers should be plenty. I am curious to how the Hellknights returned at round 7. Dismounted and caltropped (20 foot/round total movement) means they were only 140 feet down the road, I'd think they'd be quite a bit further which would take them quite a few rounds to return and would keep them out of the fight more-or-less indefinitely.
The only change I made to the encounter was to give all of the Hellknights a +2 stat bump for being human. It looked like they were just vanilla NPCs using the normal or heroic stats (for Shanwen), but didn't have a racial boost applied. I gave the armigers +2 to Str, which gave them another +1 to hit, and +2 to damage, since they could wield their swords two handed. This meant power attack was +2 (1d8+6) and did serious damage.
I'm not sure I want to do this. They've been fighting armigers in the sewers pretty heftily and they've really had very few trouble so far (nobody has gone negative due to hellknights, only to skeletons). At this point I'm planning on Shanwen (level 2 Cavalier), his horse, and 6 hellknight armigers only (the carriage horses will be non-combatants technically).
If I overjuiced the encounter, my plan was to have Janiven and a couple others help them out with ranged attacks, but I didn't need to go there.
That's what I'm planning on with Arawen in the coach. He can yell out for people to rally near him if need be and lay off his channel energy and maybe even a touch spell if needed.
This is one of those encounters where if your PCs don't play it right, or have bad luck, it can go south in a hurry. My group had a great party makeup that let everyone optimize their skills while augmenting each other, so I felt good about pushing it a bit.
I'm banking on the fact that this is very much a stand-alone encounter rather than one in a chain of encounters. I would hope that the party would expend pretty much everything they have on-hand to get this fight done, but I don't want it to be a TPK right off the bat (bad way to start a campaign). Hopefully I've not gone overboard, but still put it at enough of a challenge to make it more than just a breeze-through.
I am curious to how the Hellknights returned at round 7. Dismounted and caltropped (20 foot/round total movement) means they were only 140 feet down the road, I'd think they'd be quite a bit further which would take them quite a few rounds to return and would keep them out of the fight more-or-less indefinitely.
They ran, and I didn't have them be affected by the caltrops, only the horses. They can run 80 feet/round in medium armor so I had them about 200 yards away. They would have charged the next round had the wizard not stepped up and taken them all out.
I only had 3 move to rejoin the fight, while the 4th collected the horses.
I was debating whether or not to do this, but since they had done such a good job to that point, I felt comfortable adding a little more heat to the encounter.
Edit: My recommendation is to hand wave the exact distance and details of how far away they are. They could have been closer, and spent a round moving half speed through the caltrops first, or whatever. Instead, I chose for them to move at the speed of plot. If they need to join the fight to increase drama, then they arrive in time. Or, if their arrival will doom the party, they are too late. I basically used them to keep pressure on the PCs so they didn't coup-de-grace everyone (even though they given instructions not to), or ride off with the horses, carriage, full plate armor, etc.
I had them off the map, and then put them on the map about 5 rounds into the combat and had them run from there. This gave the party a couple rounds to react/prepare, if necessary. The exact timing of when they went on was based on how the combat was going, and I worked backwards from there.
That's what I'm planning on with Arawen in the coach. He can yell out for people to rally near him if need be and lay off his channel energy and maybe even a touch spell if needed.
Don't forget he's manacled, and wouldn't have his holy symbol either. You can certainly change that up though. I had him gagged for good measure in my case. Also, don't forget that channel energy will affect Hellknights as well, which may or may not make a difference.
I'm banking on the fact that this is very much a stand-alone encounter rather than one in a chain of encounters. I would hope that the party would expend pretty much everything they have on-hand to get this fight done, but I don't want it to be a TPK right off the bat (bad way to start a campaign). Hopefully I've not gone overboard, but still put it at enough of a challenge to make it more than just a breeze-through.
Yep, TPK right away is definitely bad form. How the fight goes will probably depend on how effective color spray is. If the group is having problems, have Arael or Janiven help is smart. If it is a cakewalk, having the mounted armigers show up in a few rounds helps fuel the drama.
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I don't get the order of the lion allegiance, except to powergame shawnwen. The main antithesis here is the Order of the Rack - the most cruel and rigid order of the Hellknights. Even the Cheliax book suggests a Hellknight - of the Scourge, I believe, as a friendly NPC.
I put a couple of the armigers on horses and had them run after the
"children" My players were very against caltrops, so there was a problem of them being able to catch the others. They quickly subdued the other hellknights with a lullaby and two sleep spells. Shawnwen didn't even get a turn! The ones on horses, who got off to fight, were much harder, though. They weren't able to loot the group except for the key, the note, and his mace, 'cause the sleep spell would wear off.
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I don't get the order of the lion allegiance, except to powergame shawnwen. The main antithesis here is the Order of the Rack - the most cruel and rigid order of the Hellknights. Even the Cheliax book suggests a Hellknight - of the Scourge, I believe, as a friendly NPC.
I put a couple of the armigers on horses and had them run after the
"children" My players were very against caltrops, so there was a problem of them being able to catch the others. They quickly subdued the other hellknights with a lullaby and two sleep spells. Shawnwen didn't even get a turn! The ones on horses, who got off to fight, were much harder, though. They weren't able to loot the group except for the key, the note, and his mace, 'cause the sleep spell would wear off.
Let me go over why I chose Order of the Lion (which was chosen without looking at the advantages, only looking at descriptions, which makes it a bit unfair to claim that it was chosen as a "powergamer" choice. If we look at a description of the Order of the Rack and it's members we come away with...
Members of the Order of the Rack largely come from staunch, old families who hold themselves as keepers of regional traditions or as inheritors of prestigious bloodlines. Those who have felt the sting of revolution and change, either in social coups or through technological improvements, also find the mandates of the Rack most worthy.
My choices were:
Order of the Dragon:
A cavalier who belongs to this order serves only himself, working to further his own aims and increase his own prestige. Cavaliers of this order tend to be selfish and concerned only with personal goals and objectives.
This didn't fit the idea of a zealous Hellknight who follows the Lawful Order of the Rack with fervor. He wouldn't be in it just for himself.
Order of the Lion:
A cavalier who belongs to this order has pledged himself to a sovereign, be it a king, queen, or even the local warlord. Cavaliers of this order are stalwart and dedicated to their cause, willing to go any length to ensure the safety of their lord and his domain.
I read "sovereign" not as a title, I read it as a concept. A sovereign could be the nation itself, in this case Cheliax. Since the description of the order indicates that they're the absolute most vigilant defenders against rebellion, it would fit that Cavalier members of the order could be members of the Order of the Lion who have sworn fidelity to the House of Thrune and the nation of Cheliax. Specifically it states they will go to any length to ensure the safety of the domain, which fits perfectly with the Hellknight order.
Order of the Shield:
Cavaliers who join the order of the shield devote their lives to protecting the common folk, from the simple farmer to the honest craftsman. These cavaliers stand before the tide, protecting the innocent from roving marauders and hungry monsters.
Um, no doesn't fit in the slightest.
Order of the Star:
Cavaliers who join the order of the star dedicate themselves to the protection and service of a faith and its members. Cavaliers belonging to this order tend to follow many of the tenets and guides of the religion that they serve. When a cavalier joins this order, he should select a single religion to serve.
Now this one was a choice I did consider. I decided though that a Hellknight in this kind of position wouldn't be interested in protecting the members of the faith (that's left better for other Orders of the Hellknights). To me his desire to protect Cheliax would be greater than that to protect followers of Azmodeus. Absolutely a possibility though.
Order of the Sword:
Cavaliers who join the order of the sword dedicate their lives to the code of chivalry, living a life of honor, valor, and fairness. Men of this order tend to swear service to a lady, although some female cavaliers have been known to swear service to a lord. Of all the orders, the order of the sword is perhaps the broadest in terms of its focus and ideals.
Just like the Order of the Shield absolutely didn't fit, neither did the order of the Sword.
So what we have is frankly Order of the Lion fits most for any Evil cavalier that's interested in protecting a nation.
I also ran my fight on Wednesday with my adjustments. It was actually quite the exciting fight that lasted about 14 rounds. After the initial surprise the guards sent off their riders to the diversion. Shanwen stood guard in the middle of the road just in case. The first person to come charging out of the woods was the Paladin who detected evil on Shanwen and declared him the target of his smite evil. The ranger took some pot shots at the guard manning the ballista, and the rogue started sneaking up behind the prison cart to get to a strategically placed metal rod.
The Paladin and Shanwen (as a Cavalier) went toe-to-toe; the Paladin smote evil on Shanwen and Shanwen Challenged the Paladin. The two were very evenly matched, although Shanwen's horse wound up doing more to the Paladin than Shanwen did (due to rolling consistent 20's on his bite attack). The rest of the fight almost seemed to go on around these two as the paladin was required to use most of his lay of hands on himself to keep fighting.
While they duked it out, the rogue set-out to shove a huge metal pole they hid in the dirt beside the road into the wheel spokes. The sorcerer ran around like a chicken with his head cut off for the first half of the fight before he wound up color spraying 4 out of 6 of the guards and Arael, whoops! The ranger used his bow to take out the driver of the coach from a distance and then the person manning the ballista before assisting the Paladin with Shanwen.
They defeated everybody and let Shanwen's horse run away with Shanwen unconscious but still in the saddle. The group started trying to unlock the carriage but wound up prying open the door and carting the unconscious, blind, and stunned Arael off into the woods while Shanwen's horse stopped at the guards hobbling back from down the road. The guards all pooled their cure potions and got Shanwen back into the fight for one last rally. His charge reached the group just as they were disappearing back into the trees, unfortunately a critical failure by his horse dumped him on the ground next to the group who promptly fed him his ass in about two rounds of combat.
Very exciting, and overall (with some problems) I think switching Shanwen over to a Cavalier was a great addition to the fight.
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I just reconsidered your complaint against a Cavalier of the Order of the Lion and just realized you may have had a different complaint than which order of which he was a member. Cavalier orders do not eliminate the Hellknight scourge in the game, as members of the Hellknights who are Cavaliers would simply be members of an Order AND Hellknights (think of them almost as a sub-grouping within the Hellknights).
I in no way eliminated the Hellknight presence in my encounter, Cavalier Shanwen was just as much as a Hellknight as Cleric Shanwen was.
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I just reconsidered your complaint against a Cavalier of the Order of the Lion and just realized you may have had a different complaint than which order of which he was a member. Cavalier orders do not eliminate the Hellknight scourge in the game, as members of the Hellknights who are Cavaliers would simply be members of an Order AND Hellknights (think of them almost as a sub-grouping within the Hellknights).
I in no way eliminated the Hellknight presence in my encounter, Cavalier Shanwen was just as much as a Hellknight as Cleric Shanwen was.
I think I'm just confused about the Cavalier class. Sounds like it was a fun fight.