Creative Director
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I noticed you seem to have many issues with Alkenstar and how it fits in with the rest of Golarion so I am forced to wonder how it made it into the CS as is to begin with? Maybe this was already discussed somewhere else but I'm curious to learn the answer. It seems like it would have been better to not have it at all.
When we were initially building the campaign setting, we were a bit punch drunk with excitement. Also, it was the first hardcover we'd done in addition to the rest of our aggressive product line, so a lot of it went through the process way too quickly and without enough development. ALSO, we had different employees at the time, and there was actually a LOT of arguments in those early days over what should and shouldn't be in the world. There's an element of "design by committee" in the PCCS, in other words... and design by committee is generally not the best way to build something like a campaign world. This is also why so many of the earlier modules had elements that, today, seem out of place in Golarion.
Basically, we were too timid in telling some of our authors and employees that certain ideas didn't really meet the vision that we had for the campaign setting, and some awkward elements crept in as a result.
Now, close to 2 years later, we have a MUCH better handle on the look and feel of Golarion. And the PCCS will get a proper development treatment, finally, with the reprint; it never really got one in the first printing because we simply had no time to go through and make everything fit right.
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Creative Director
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I believe it was Mike McArtor....before he left?
Correct; the PCCS was actually Mike's last project at Paizo. In fact, his last day, if I remember correctly, was more or less the day AFTER we shipped the PCCS to the printer. This was ALSO the day we had to get everything that was going to be at Gen Con to the printer. There were a LOT of hard deadlines that forced us to rush things on that book, in other words, and rob it of the time it needed to "grow up."
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I'll be doing my best to keep as much of Alkenstar's flavor as possible... but the simple fact is that it's a sore thumb. It doesn't really match the rest of Golarion in a lot of ways... and it needs to since it's part of the world. I understand that the region has its fans and admirers, and it's not gonna go away... but it is going to change. My job is to make sure it changes so that it fits into the world in a way that isn't awkward while at the same time minimizing the impact on those who enjoy the region. We'll see if I did a good job with the revision once the new PCCS is out... but listening to folks on these threads is helping a LOT.
fair is fair :)
lets see where this take us
i only know WE 'demand' more intel on the area! now that is going to be smoother it shoudl be less of a problem, doesn't it?
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Creative Director
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Do you feel the same way about elements of RotRL (since this was published even before the CS)? I'm now DMing RotRL and after reading through the series it seems to fit in, if not outright define, what I believe you guys are looking for with Golarion.
What published (or soon to be) product would you say matches your vision of Golarion the best? In other words, if you had to have a SINGLE Paizo created product represent what Golarian is to you which would you choose?
I don't at all. I was at ground zero for Rise of the Runelords. I wrote the first adventure, created the outline, developed every other adventure, and worked very closely with Wes Schneider on all of the other elements. When we launched Pathfinder, my bosses basically told me: "You're in charge of this adventure path product, and you need to focus all of your attention on making it work, because if it doesn't work, Paizo's going to turn into nothing more than a web store."
That's maybe a little overly dramatic, but it IS more or less the situation we were in at the time, having just lost the core of our business model with the magazines going away. And so I was VERY focused on making Pathfinder APs work, and used pretty much every single word and picture in Runelords to help set up the world. (Which, incidentally, is why the first few Player's Guides are more accurately called "Introductions to Golarion" than they are actual player's guides to an AP.)
And that's kinda been the marching orders ever since with Pathfinder, only as the AP forumla has become easier to handle with practice, I've been put more and more in charge of the other elements and lines. My current title basically means that I'm in charge of ALL of the Pathfinder lines—their direction, their flavor, their rules development, and all that. Basically, the mandate to make the AP cool has been expanded to make EVERY Pathfinder product cool. Which is a pretty tall order, since there's a LOT of products. Fortunately... the other lines are in pretty damn good shape already. Helps to have an awesome and talented team of designers, developers, and editors!
If I had to pick one product that most closely matches my vision of Golarion... it would be the upcoming revised edition of the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. If it's not... I'll probably need to look for a job elsewhere! :-P
The class substitutions are very likely to go away entirely, actually, since several of them were worked into the Pathfinder class redesigns, a few are no longer necessary, and some are going to be incorporated into the Advanced Player's Guide. In fact, the classes section in an "expanded" reprint would be quite likely to shrink drastically in size, down to advice on how these classes function in Golarion and with different art.
I'd like to keep the substitutions. If the ones now are outdated due to becoming class abilities or being in the Advanced Player's Guide then perhaps new and updated ones. My group really likes these and I believe it gives our campaign more of a Golarion feel. I don't see much content directly related to the world in the Core book, and really like these for the flavor. As for paring down the section as a whole I think that would make more room for more juicy Golarion content.
Just my 2 cp.
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I'm all for bringing everything into line and making the world fit together better. I'm wondering if there could be a way to work the changes in so that what was done previously won't necessarily be made obsolete as brought into line, such as Alkenstar. Could it be hinted at though rumors that the weapons or things changed/removed might exist? Thus it would bring the world in order, but still leave an openning for those that used that material to keep using it?
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Creative Director
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I'd like to keep the substitutions. If the ones now are outdated due to becoming class abilities or being in the Advanced Player's Guide then perhaps new and updated ones. My group really likes these and I believe it gives our campaign more of a Golarion feel. I don't see much content directly related to the world in the Core book, and really like these for the flavor. As for paring down the section as a whole I think that would make more room for more juicy Golarion content.
Just my 2 cp.
Class substitutions are going to be a HUGE part of the Advanced Player's Guide, though. And I kinda want to limit them to that book. At least for now.
Class substitutions are going to be a HUGE part of the Advanced Player's Guide, though. And I kinda want to limit them to that book. At least for now.
I didn't know they were going to be that big for the Advanced Player's Guide. If they are in there it works for me....Plus We'll get them that much sooner. :-) It works for me.
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Creative Director
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Class substitutions are going to be a HUGE part of the Advanced Player's Guide, though. And I kinda want to limit them to that book. At least for now.I didn't know they were going to be that big for the Advanced Player's Guide. If they are in there it works for me....Plus We'll get them that much sooner. :-) It works for me.
Current estimate puts the six new base classes at about 60 pages in the APG. That leaves about 260 pages of other stuff... there's gonna be a LOT in there!
Oh wow, looking through the site I see the revised Campaign Setting has been put on the Chronicles listing. When did this happen?
Either way, WONDERFUL NEWS. Even though it won't be for 7 months or so. Guaranteed purchase from me.
Back on Feb 12th, when the product schedule for the rest of 2010 was released.
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I personally really like the Grand Duchy of Alkenstar. I'm glad it's not going away, and I'm okay with Alkenstarians being like the Shoanti of the Storval Plateau - a small subsection of a larger region that provides interest and diversity to Golarion, but aren't going to get their own book.
But a book on the Mana Wastes with Alkenstar a part of that? Yes, please!
Also, I always thought if I was going to play an Alkenstar gunslinger, I'd just shop for the gun rules I liked best from various d20 and RPG products, and go to my DM for approval. I'd do the same with psionics. :)
Also, Mike McArtor is an awsome guy, so I'd hate to see his contribution to the book sidelined; but it doesn't look like that will happen.
Three cheers for Grand Duchess Ricia! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray!
*shoots off gun into the air in celebration*
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Creative Director
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LATEST ALKENSTAR NEWS: Alkenstar is staying in the world, but it's growing a LOT younger. Currently, the campaign setting has Alkenstar around like 3,000 years ago.
We've only had guns for like 500 years, and we already have lasers and H-bombs. Alkenstar should not have guns for six times that amount.
What'll likely happen is that Alkenstar's a relatively young area (maybe 150 years old, probably even less), and the introduction of guns is something that's VERY recent. Like maybe 100 years old, if that, which ties the introduction of guns into the world to Aroden's death and the beginning of the Age of Lost Omens, which is really rather intriguing...
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Intriguing. Does this mean the Manna Wastes are also tied to Aroden's death? Or do they still date to the Nex/Geb war, and the Grand Duchy is a relatively new "colony" in the area? - It could even be a tentative step by Nex to reclaim the area; sending out "test" subjects to see what happens. The Campaign Setting book says "In a strictly legal sense, the Grand Duchy of Alkenstar belongs to Nex." Now that has lots of political implications!
Very intriguing. I will commence saving my pennies for this book.
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I'm hoping that the expanded entry on Numeria has a better picture. That "computer chip" or whatever it is doesn't really give me any idea of what the place is really like. I'm thinking "1930s Sci-Fi meets 'Prince Valiant' comic-strip barbarians," from the text, but it's just not what I'm seeing in the illustration.
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Creative Director
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What about the (presumed) laser guns and robots in Numeria though? Haven't those been around for quite some time?
Edit:
Although no indication has been given that anyone has the capacity to manufacture or repair the Numerian items, however. :-k
The people of Numeria most certainly cannot craft lasers and robots. They have what they have from the crashed ship and that's pretty much it... and getting more out of that ship is the stuff of high level adventure. It's a VERY limited resource.
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Creative Director
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I'm hoping that the expanded entry on Numeria has a better picture. That "computer chip" or whatever it is doesn't really give me any idea of what the place is really like. I'm thinking "1930s Sci-Fi meets 'Prince Valiant' comic-strip barbarians," from the text, but it's just not what I'm seeing in the illustration.
There'll be LOTS of better art. Never fear.
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Creative Director
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Intriguing. Does this mean the Manna Wastes are also tied to Aroden's death? Or do they still date to the Nex/Geb war, and the Grand Duchy is a relatively new "colony" in the area? - It could even be a tentative step by Nex to reclaim the area; sending out "test" subjects to see what happens. The Campaign Setting book says "In a strictly legal sense, the Grand Duchy of Alkenstar belongs to Nex." Now that has lots of political implications!
Very intriguing. I will commence saving my pennies for this book.
The Mana Wastes are not tied to Aroden's death... they've been around for a long time. I like the idea that they were created by the war between Nex and Geb, and that for thousands of years they were thought to be uninhabitable. Then, relatively recently, folks have started moving in there, and thus Alkenstar was founded.
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Creative Director
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The current spread on psioncis is actually going to go away. Until we know exactly how they work in Pathfinder's new rules, they're not going to be mentioned in Golarion products. Then, when we DO do a psionics book, we'll be able to handle how they work in Golarion with something significant like its own book.
Dwarves in Golarion actually aren't going to be all that involved with guns. That starts to tread too much on Warcraft's thing. Humans will be the primary gun inventors, which makes sense when you think of humans as being the most industrious and widespread and ambitious of the races.
Dwarves in Golarion actually aren't going to be all that involved with guns. That starts to tread too much on Warcraft's thing.
I remember the good ol' days when folks called that Warhammer's thing, 'cause making metal that won't crack under at all that pressure takes some real knowin'. Sad days to be a dwarf it is when people confuse yer proud and ancient heritage with modern sons who tuck their beards away everytime they put a helmet on.
Maybe you could make a feature on Paizo.com where a person (who bought the 3.5 version) could just input the numerical part of their 3.5 version book's bar code and then Paizo.com would take a minute or two to verify that it's valid then allow them to download or purchase the PATHFINDER version of the book either free or at a discount? Would that work Jamester?
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Creative Director
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Maybe you could make a feature on Paizo.com where a person (who bought the 3.5 version) could just input the numerical part of their 3.5 version book's bar code and then Paizo.com would take a minute or two to verify that it's valid then allow them to download or purchase the PATHFINDER version of the book either free or at a discount? Would that work Jamester?
It wouldn't, because the numerical code on a book's bar code is the same number for every book; it's not a unique number on each book. It's not a serial number. So someone could just go online or find the book's bar code number anywhere and then get a free PDF of the new book just by typing it in.
There's really no way around the fact that folks are going to have to buy the book again if they really want the updated info, unfortunately. And part of this book's goal IS to make money for Paizo.
Although I believe we're looking at pricing the PDF of the book pretty aggressively.
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Maybe you could make a feature on Paizo.com where a person (who bought the 3.5 version) could just input the numerical part of their 3.5 version book's bar code and then Paizo.com would take a minute or two to verify that it's valid then allow them to download or purchase the PATHFINDER version of the book either free or at a discount? Would that work Jamester?It wouldn't, because the numerical code on a book's bar code is the same number for every book; it's not a unique number on each book. It's not a serial number. So someone could just go online or find the book's bar code number anywhere and then get a free PDF of the new book just by typing it in.
There's really no way around the fact that folks are going to have to buy the book again if they really want the updated info, unfortunately. And part of this book's goal IS to make money for Paizo.
Although I believe we're looking at pricing the PDF of the book pretty aggressively.
I haven't been on the boards or site for a while. Is there any release date for the updated Campaign Setting?
It will be out February of next year.
Heh... I normally I try to keep the blinders on when it comes to realism for a fantasy setting but technology issues tend to tear them off. It just doesn't 'hang' with the other things established for Golarian. By medieval standards, Golarian in alot of ways is more advanced... highly developed in metallurgy (with mythically hard materials), capable of producing complex stable chemical compounds reasonably cheaply (gunpowder or any 'exploding' powder should be simple by comparison), a highly developed trapmaking industry (reliable mechanics\clockwork), and possesses the printing press with a renaissance like society in some areas.
I don't think the manufacture or maintenance of firearms should be anything more than a specific Craft check. Craft-Small arms, Craft-Alchemy, and Craft-cannon.
With the exception of wheelocks, the prices for firearms seem outrageously unrealistic considering they aren't terribly complicated mechanisms crafted from expensive materials, regardless of the lack of supply (and I doubt they're status symbol demand items). A metal tube, a simplier tiggering mechanism than a crossbows, and stock. I remember reading guns were roughly the same cost to produce as a crossbow when they were first coming into use. <quick search> Early arquebuses and crossbows from late 14th to early 15th century, in Poland...the cost of crossbow varied between 30 and 64 groszes, while simple handgun - 24 gr, heavy gun - 60 gr.
Some more info on the prices (imperial armory in Ljubljana, last third of the 16th c.): heavy arquebus (Topplhaggen - 15 to 24mm) 10 Rhein. Gld, handgun (Handtrohr - in the same calibers) 3 Gld. For comparison, a Zweihaender would cost 2 Gld, a rapier the same and an iron helmet 1 Gld. Complete gear of a mercenary was priced at 8 Gld. A halberd or a javelin cost only 45 Kreuzer (60 Krz = 1 Gld), a targe 35 Krz, a flail or a battle axe 10 Krz.
Gunpowder was quite inexpensive. In the 2nd half of the 16th century, a 100 pounds of it would cost around 10 Gld. Lead was even cheaper - 3 Gld for the same weight.
Ammunition....simple lead bullet vs. a quarrel. Weight of ammunition also favors the bullet not to mention how easy it is to make lead shot. Gunpowder... 10 gp for 1 shot...ugh. Golarian has alchemists in nearly any noteworthy settlement. Considering the other things they are making, reverse engineering black powder should be child's play...assuming they aren't making fireworks already. If there is a demand, Alkensar's 'monopoly' won't last long at those prices.
I would probably move most firearms out of the 'exotic weapons category'. It's not a complicated weapon to teach or employ... I've read it was harder to train crossbowmen. Considering the crossbow's winch mechanism and required strength (something underfed disease ridden conscripts may not have in supply)...
I try to keep my games internally consistent as far as the settings go (even though most of my players really don't care about the political lay of the land for the most part until some baron tries to tax them;-). But guns, plus the kind of state\cultures of a good portion of Golarion, plus printing press.... I don't think 100 years or 4000 years is gonna make a huge difference in the rarity of guns and make any sort of logical sense with what's presented in the World Guide
For firearms it's the same problem the Japanese had... arquebus armed ashigaru peasant foot troops pretty much negated the years of martial training of the samurai. Japan in the 16th century was most likely producing the best guns in the world and had more of them than anybody else IIRC.
<quick search>
Arquebuses were introduced to Japan in 1543 by Portuguese traders (Fernão Mendes Pinto), who landed by accident on Tanegashima, an island south of Kyūshū in the region controlled by the Shimazu clan. By 1550, copies of the Portuguese arquebus were being produced in large quantities, and they were often seen on the battlefields all over Japan. Oda Nobunaga revolutionized musket tactics in Japan by splitting loaders and shooters and assigning three guns to a shooter at the Battle of Nagashino in 1575.
Seven years to notable production and thirty-two to wide scale use.
For a commoner, a gun probably should be a better weapon. For the professional vagabond psycho-killers with bags of gold known as 'adventurers' may not bother with guns because they would gravitate to the weapons with the best killing power and utility (damp conditions like dungeons are bad for firearms as I'd imagine getting caught in a fireball wouldn't be ideal).
A bowman had a faster rate of fire and was more accurate. Damage wise... I'm not sure I'd rate a firearm as deadlier than a spear in the gut, arrow to the chest, or forearm hacked with an axe. To model a firearm for golarian, I'd probably drop the critical down to x3 or even x2 with a 19-20 range (maybe d6 for handguns and d10 for muskets...or just keep them at d8 and d12 with the 19-20 and x2), drop the ranged touch at close range to negates up to 5 points of armor\shield\natural (at any range) but double the range penalties.
I'd probably change reload times to two full actions and shift them to Simple weapons if they have any skill points a 'Use Firearms' skill. As well it seems unrealistically easy to destroy a gun with the misfire rules...especially given the advanced alchemy, trapmaking, and metallurgy of Golarian. I'd keep the misfire range but use the 'Use Firearms' skill to determine if the weapon is reduced to the 'broken' condition (probably using a DC 10 plus misfire range). I'd probably also set dcs for 'Use firearms' to keep the powder dry and to keep a loaded firearm from going off if caught in a fireball as well.
Maybe Golarion states are a fairly peaceable bunch or only hire professional soldiers to fight wars, but otherwise it does make a whole lot of economic sense to train at least some conscripts to use firearms and adopt them into general military usage.