New PDF once the Golarion Campaign Setting is revised?


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Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Is anyone out there who likes guns in their fantasy RPGs satisfied with what we did with them in the current hardcover?
James Jacobs wrote:
Guns, basically, are boring.

I for one don't mind having them in my game and was happy to see them in the hardcover. More than that so would my lady friend who feel in love with Alkenstar and made a gun toting chick for our first game.

(Been wanting to make one myself. And find the current rules fine)

As any one of my players and they'll tell ya they'd jump at the chance to have guns before a sword, shield or wand.

The Exchange

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Gunpowder not working at all outside of magic-dead areas (or just randomly blowing up instead) might be a solution, but in that case why haven't alchemists developed a version which does work properly outside of those areas and why were the Fifth and Sixth Taldan Armies of Exploration hauling a huge gun around with them? (Unless of course they never fired it until one moment that the Sixth Army tried, and then when they discovered it didn't work properly they abandoned it as useless junk...)
More like, the further away from the magic-dead areas you get, the more magic interferes with the ignition and the more powder is needed to get a gun or cannon to fire. Thus why they would have such a huge cannon in Mwangi, anything much smaller would not fire at all. As for alchemists, they just simply have not found a way yet to counter the way magic causes the gunpowder to become inert.

Or the further away you get the more likely the powder is to ignite spontaneously...

*evil grin*

Looking forward to my players trying to become arms dealers.


If you ever release an Alkenstar supplement, release the gun rules then, I find giving them two pages is silly becasue their basically a non-element, complaining about not having them would be like complainin that there isn't a ninja class in the campaign setting, because there are far more ninja's in Tian Xia than guns on the planet, and their equally as much a non-element of Inner Sea culture and society.

And people who want guns can use the rules from the current campaign setting, which are OGL, as far as I know, so can be shared.

I'd rather the space be used for something else, preserving or expanding the Trade section even would be more broadly useful, or a small few sections on how rare magic is, and how it is veiwed in Golarion.


James Jacobs wrote:
Piety Godfury wrote:
You could advance the timeline.
While we'll probably add a few more years to the game world's timeline... we won't be adopting any of the events in any Adventure Paths or modules as "having happened."

Great! I like the cut of your jib!


Erik Mona wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:


Any idea what's getting expanded/cut? Hopefully not the Beyond the Inner Sea section, which is my favourite part of the book! If anything add to it! Please!!! It's the only information we'll get on those areas for years to come!

Well, since the publisher wrote that section, I think there's a really strong chance that it won't be cut.

It's awesome! Lobby for more pages, to add random references to other cultures, I wanna know a bit more about Ilybdos, etc.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:

One minor problem with completely axing firearms from the actual setting (not just the campaign setting book) is that the flag of Alkenstar would need a re-design...

He didn't say he was axing guns, they still exist in Alkenstar, the Worldbreaker, etc. But the rules aren't going to be included in the Campaign setting, there's not rules for the Oliphaunt, but it still exists in the setting.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:

And I'm not saying guns ARE cut from the book. But unless I can figure out a way to handle them in 2 pages or so that feels good, doesn't feel like an afterthought, and explains why guns aren't all over the place in every part of the world... they're outa there.

And of course... if there's a huge upswell of support for guns in Golarion, that'll help too!

Count this as support for guns as is. The exploding dice make them interesting and useful, without being overpowered. And I for one like Alkenstar and the mana wastes.

My group had an interesting concept with someone born there who left because of his interest in magic, became an wizard/eldrich knight with a divine bonded gun.

If you understand that forging guns is very difficult, gun powder is rare, and automatic weapons require a level of industrialization that is unheard of, it isn't a game changer.

As someone said to me about guns in fantasy, why would people use guns when they have magic? It takes so much time and effort to make guns, and they are incredibly fragile. Consider the Arquebus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus

It existed side by side with archers for two centuries, but until mass production of better metals, it was only for the very rich and even then less effective. Hell, the Swiss phalanx still worked against them due to reload time.

If you assume scholars would study the more simple "Magic" rather than complex metallurgy, and that outside of Alkanstar no one would bother creating the infrastructure needed when you could just hire a bunch of low level wizards with magic missile, it works fine.

Better than fine, it adds variety and spice. It hasn't been a game breaker for us at all.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
Urizen wrote:
Don't you dare cut Alkenstar.

Alkenstar's not going anywhere... although it's VERY likely to be part of the Mana Wastes entry rather than be its own entry. Indeed... look at the entry for Alkenstar right now; a fair amount of that entry is about places OTHER than Alkenstar in the Mana Wastes.

There's a VERY good chance the firearms rules will get cut, though. (prepares for backlash)

Same happens with every other region, where you expose more around the surrounding that just the main cities...

besides ok, let suppose you cut the firearms... how would a society like that survive and eb able to eb a link between Nex and Geb when they are in so tought a position and with no advantage? a single monster would make a lot of problems... there is no magic for adventurers to be kept alive, or to bring down creatures like that. Economically there are reasons... but the situation is such that who would really be able to make commerce with them in such hostile environment.. who would want... what would they have to offer to the world that make it worthwhile?

yes, you designed a pretty cool "grim & gritty subsetting" firearns friendly... now you don't like it...

ditch it if you want, its obvious those who like Alkenstar's concept don't matter in this decision if you have already arrived to such "logical" step... why? there have been already 2 or 3 threads (or more if I haven't being cheking it) asking for further support for Alkenstar, every time we have received the same answer "sorry guys, I don't like it, so sorry no" words more, words less. So you don't like it and would have Paizo doing things you would feel more passionate about... ok.. then don't say that the players and fans actually are part o the creation process... this is one of the time its shown false.

I myself actually prefer fantasy firearms where each one is masterwork and quite unique than lost lasers from Numeria... you are right, those don't exist,... but don't suppose that because of that people doesn't actually have already ideas of how they are or how they work... we have seen laser used since.. I don't know, since Flash Gordon? to Star Trek/Star Wars, so if there are lasers in Numeria, are you ready to get lightsaber wielding monks on your setting? I know a few who would love that ¬¬

in rules there have been enough ideas thrown in the air for lasers... the least of them is Star Wars Saga, but closer at home is Dragonstar.

You have already made Alkenstar one of the most advanced places in engineery and architecture (Guide to Korvosa, Domina's Tower was constructed by Alkenstar engineers)...

But its ok... i understand, you go for the easy and boring, you have specific ideas and would not look beyond them. you say you can't do justice to firearms, I believe you, against all proof I believe you, I know you have quite talented writers and designers that can do marvels, but you insist you can't do any good in this area? ok... a shame for the people you have there.

why don't ditch the full mana wastes... ok they exist but why have a city there... its absurd and illogical, there is no reason, no advantage and no way someone in a fantasy setting would survive there for long... after the first centuries the city would have been under siegue and overwhelmed... they depend on the exterior for food and many of the resources... their resources are good.. but not something to really risk that kind of exterminium...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
Of course the firearms rules are going to get cut. The sacred cow of "no guns in fantasy" is harder to kill than any of the gods.

It's not that we don't want guns in Golarion NEARLY as much as we can't do justice to guns in 1 or 2 or 3 pages. At least, not to the extent that those who really want guns in a game will be satisfied.

Is anyone out there who likes guns in their fantasy RPGs satisfied with what we did with them in the current hardcover?

Perhaps a companion book about guns and other less common tech might be the best way to handle it. Or do a Alkensta book and put the gun rules in it.

Liberty's Edge

brock wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Gunpowder not working at all outside of magic-dead areas (or just randomly blowing up instead) might be a solution, but in that case why haven't alchemists developed a version which does work properly outside of those areas and why were the Fifth and Sixth Taldan Armies of Exploration hauling a huge gun around with them? (Unless of course they never fired it until one moment that the Sixth Army tried, and then when they discovered it didn't work properly they abandoned it as useless junk...)
More like, the further away from the magic-dead areas you get, the more magic interferes with the ignition and the more powder is needed to get a gun or cannon to fire. Thus why they would have such a huge cannon in Mwangi, anything much smaller would not fire at all. As for alchemists, they just simply have not found a way yet to counter the way magic causes the gunpowder to become inert.

Or the further away you get the more likely the powder is to ignite spontaneously...

*evil grin*

Looking forward to my players trying to become arms dealers.

err

longbow 75 gps
arquebus... 1000+ gps...

the reason not every soldier and garrison have a rifle company is the same reason why they don't give them magic swords or armor... TOO expensive.

Golarion is not areal world
Guns are exotic weapons in Golarion, Bows are Martial Weapons, Crossbow are Simple Weapons

only this makes it difficult to just have anyone using them...

Fantasy firearms are usually more complex, need to be upkept by the same user, ammo is hard to come by.

yes... firearms have enough disadvantages in a fantasy setting to know make them explote everywhere just to have firearm haters happy.

why there are no more firearms in the a fantasy world? a wand of magic missile is cheaper... ok it does less damage... but it never fails, can be recharged and canbe used freely by wizards, sorcerers, bards and any rogue worth salt his use magic devices.

Liberty's Edge

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Perhaps a companion book about guns and other less common tech might be the best way to handle it.

Dark Mistress, i like your way fo thinking :)

unfortunately he has already said that eh has no intention to do anything like that


Montalve, he's not saying that firearms aren't going to be in Alkenstar anymore, he's saying the rules for them won't be in the campaign setting. Alkenstar itself will still have guns and cannons and better technology.

So fluffwise there is absolutely no change whatsoever.


Montalve wrote:
good remarks

+1


vagrant-poet wrote:

Montalve, he's not saying that firearms aren't going to be in Alkenstar anymore, he's saying the rules for them won't be in the campaign setting. Alkenstar itself will still have guns and cannons and better technology.

So fluffwise there is absolutely no change whatsoever.

Perhaps, but when the new edition comes around and someone comes across Alkenstar and goes 'ooh, cool. Let me find the firearms information' and cannot do so. He looks around valiantly, yet unsuccessfully, to PF rule content for this. "Oh, it's in an earlier edition, but it's out of print." Tsk.

If Alkenstar has its own 32 pg sourcebook and the firearms are placed in there as a supplement, then that's a compromise I can live with if the contents are excised from the campaign revised edition.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
Urizen wrote:
Don't you dare cut Alkenstar.
There's a VERY good chance the firearms rules will get cut, though. (prepares for backlash)

Sounds great to me! I've never liked guns in D&D and I am very much OK with them being eliminated.

If, down the road, Paizo releases some sort of optional "if you want to add guns to your game, here's how" optional rules, that would be cool, but I don't like guns in the core products.

If / when I run a Golarion game (I'm playing in one right now), the whole Alkenstar / guns element will be cut completely.

Just my opinion, of course :)

Liberty's Edge

vagrant-poet wrote:

Montalve, he's not saying that firearms aren't going to be in Alkenstar anymore, he's saying the rules for them won't be in the campaign setting. Alkenstar itself will still have guns and cannons and better technology.

So fluffwise there is absolutely no change whatsoever.

my friend you haven't been in enough Alkenstar threads :P

and basically taking them out of a New Campaign Setting is like saying they don't exist... read what he says...

how I read he says "there is no need for Alkenstar section, just Mana Wastes section were Alkenstar would be barely mentioned.. maybe even said that they have firearms... maybe..." without rules for firearms anywhere they will be cutting what little support for new players or DM for Golarion. No Alkenstar Companion or Guide (which he had already said MANY times he/them are not interested) well makes this step quite clear for me.

Shadow Lodge

Maybe a future Chronicles could be devoted to tech that exceeds the medieval level common to the majority of Golarion. Everything from Alkenstar's guns to detailing SOME of the tech found in Numeria.


@Urizen and Montalve:

No look, I know you like Alkenstar, but that's a silly standpoint. There will still be guns, but Alkenstar is tiny and relatively unimportant to the larger setting, it's rules are neither vital nor important. There aren't yet any ninja or samurai rules, but both still exist in Tian Xia, and are in fact a much bigger part of Golarion than Alkenstar and guns, that doesn't mean their rules should be in the Campaign Setting.

There is loads of things that are far more important to Golarion than guns that won't be in the book in rules form, and they can't do it justice in two or less pages, and it would be a total joke to dedicate more of the book than even a sidebar in the alkenstar section to the firearms.

It's not cutting support in any meaningful way, because firearms rules were never going to improved or expanded upon in the book.

I'm sure alkenstar will eventually get coverage, but frankly Ilybdos will attract more people, and a Gazetter on the Land of the Linnorm Kings, or Vudra or many other things would both garner more interest, serve more people and probably sell better.

I really like Alkenstar, and I'd love to see a module or supplement set there, but I think it's grossly unfair to have it in the Core Campaign Supplement, its misrepresentative of how important guns are in a Golarion game, which is almost not at all. While an extra page on the World beyond the Inner Sea, or making Taldor and Qadira two pages like the other Society nations is space way better served.


Oh and I'm not trying to harrangue anyone, but making Alkenstar an entry in the Mana Wastes Section makes more sense, its like making Quantinium an entry in the Nex section, and Egorian a section in the Cheliax section.


vagrant-poet wrote:

@Urizen and Montalve:

No look, I know you like Alkenstar, but that's a silly standpoint. There will still be guns, but Alkenstar is tiny and relatively unimportant to the larger setting, it's rules are neither vital nor important. There aren't yet any ninja or samurai rules, but both still exist in Tian Xia, and are in fact a much bigger part of Golarion than Alkenstar and guns, that doesn't mean their rules should be in the Campaign Setting.

There is loads of things that are far more important to Golarion than guns that won't be in the book in rules form, and they can't do it justice in two or less pages, and it would be a total joke to dedicate more of the book than even a sidebar in the alkenstar section to the firearms.

It's not cutting support in any meaningful way, because firearms rules were never going to improved or expanded upon in the book.
I really like Alkenstar, and I'd love to see a module or supplement set there, but I think it's grossly unfair to have it in the Core Campaign Supplement, its misrepresentative of how important guns are in a Golarion game, which is almost not at all. While an extra page on the World beyond the Inner Sea, or making Taldor and Qadira two pages like the other Society nations is space way better served.

There may not be any samurai or ninja rules, but there has already been allusions (you'll have to use your search-fu) that an oriental setting is HIGHLY likely for such content to eventually make an appearance within reference to Tian Xia and surrounding states/countries. IIRC, it could even be a hardcover.

All we're asking is something simple as a 32 page love to Alkenstar and the Mana Wastes combined. Heck, include Numeria (but I have a feeling Numeria has more love and will likely get included in a future AP if I read James correctly). If the core Paizo staff isn't enthused about taking on such a project, farm it out to freelancers who would give it some decent zeal and representation. Owen Stephens and Darrin Drader are two that comes to mind.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Montalve wrote:
how I read he says "there is no need for Alkenstar section, just Mana Wastes section were Alkenstar would be barely mentioned.. maybe even said that they have firearms... maybe..." without rules for firearms anywhere they will be cutting what little support for new players or DM for Golarion. No Alkenstar Companion or Guide (which he had already said MANY times he/them are not interested) well makes this step quite clear for me.

Actually, I believe you totally misread my quote.

Alkenstar is not a region; it's a city. Mana Wastes is the region it's located in, and so THAT should be the entry in the writeups section. (Absalom should be the only entry about a single city).

A Mana Wastes entry would incorperate ALL of the information currently found in the Alkenstar entry. It might rephrase or reorganize that information, but it'd all be in there. Alkenstar would be a section of the entry in the Mana Wastes, which is is pretty much how the entry for Alkenstar already reads.

As for actual firearm rules... we mention lasers in Numeria but don't include rules for lasers in the book. I merely suspect we can do the same for guns. We'll see.

But keep the feedback coming! But don't worry about me cutting locations form the book... that's not my goal at all. Some of the information will change (mostly areas where I feel that the text is confusion or flat-out poorly written), but the ideas and themes for each region will NOT be changing.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Urizen wrote:
All we're asking is something simple as a 32 page love to Alkenstar and the Mana Wastes combined. Heck, include Numeria ...

Numeria and the Mana Wastes/Alkenstar are not only very different locations, but they're separated by a vast stretch of land. It would make no sense to combine those to locations into one book.


I realize that. I was just thinking of non-typical fantasy locales that may or may not have 'guns'. I know there are parties out there that may have disdain for those particular locations, so they could have been lumped together.

But nevertheless, I expect something about Numeria to show up in the next several years in an AP.

In the meantime .... heck, I'll take a Mana Wastes Companion with the Alkenstar goodies. Sign me up for that.

Liberty's Edge

vagrant-poet wrote:

@Urizen and Montalve:

There is loads of things that are far more important to Golarion than guns that won't be in the book in rules form, and they can't do it justice in two or less pages, and it would be a total joke to dedicate more of the book than even a sidebar in the alkenstar section to the firearms.[/url]

that extra information is already being shown in a) Chronicles guides, b) Companion guides, c) Adventure Paths articles, d) articles in adventures...

vagrant-poet wrote:

It's not cutting support in any meaningful way, because firearms rules were never going to improved or expanded upon in the book.[/url]

exactly... they will be taking the only place were you could check such rules, so no they won't be cutting "support in any meaningful way" just fully and completly altogether... and in a very final way...

vagrant-poet wrote:

I'm sure alkenstar will eventually get coverage, but frankly Ilybdos will attract more people, and a Gazetter on the Land of the Linnorm Kings, or Vudra or many other things would both garner more interest, serve more people and probably sell better.

I really like Alkenstar, and I'd love to see a module or supplement set there, but I think it's grossly unfair to have it in the Core Campaign Supplement, its misrepresentative of how important guns are in a Golarion game, which is almost not at all. While an extra page on the World beyond the Inner Sea, or making Taldor and Qadira two pages like the other Society nations is space way better served.

From James Jacobs check the next quote.. its not the only one existing.. but this is his actual policy... so no, sorry not you not me are going to see anything Alkenstar :P

maybe you are right they would attract more people, maybe you are wrong :P our request is to not terminate the only place they are not giving any extra information at all to be play in this place.

From HERE

James Jacobs wrote:

In any event, while I'm pleased that Alkenstar and guns are inspiring so much creativity and chat, we're unlikely to do much more with guns or Alkenstar in an official product any time soon. We included firearms in the game for the same reason we included psionics; they're popular additions among some folk, and we want Golarion to be able to accommodate all styles of play. Yet when we develop official products beyond the basic campaign, we want to skew those products' focuses toward areas WE want to explore... and the mix of guns (and modern technology in general) and fantasy isn't one of those things.

Some might call it ironic, but we're MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely to do something big and exciting with Numeria and its laser guns and space ships and robots than we are to do with modern day guns. Because lasers and robots fit better into a fantasy setting, I think, than mundane real-world tech.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

James Jacobs wrote:

And I'm not saying guns ARE cut from the book. But unless I can figure out a way to handle them in 2 pages or so that feels good, doesn't feel like an afterthought, and explains why guns aren't all over the place in every part of the world... they're outa there.

And of course... if there's a huge upswell of support for guns in Golarion, that'll help too!

I'm a big fan of guns, but I can see the point of how hard it is to tackle them in 2 pages. So, I'd like to see them in the Campaign Setting, but I also don't see any reason they couldn't be in a different book. Is there a better place for them where you might have more pages to spend? Maybe an equipment book?

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
But keep the feedback coming! But don't worry about me cutting locations form the book... that's not my goal at all. Some of the information will change (mostly areas where I feel that the text is confusion or flat-out poorly written), but the ideas and themes for each region will NOT be changing.

ok, we will be pending to see what happens next

and yes, i might be reading wrong your line :P

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
I'm a big fan of guns, but I can see the point of how hard it is to tackle them in 2 pages. So, I'd like to see them in the Campaign Setting, but I also don't see any reason they couldn't be in a different book. Is there a better place for them where you might have more pages to spend? Maybe an equipment book?

like this one?

the question is... so close to this book release.. there would be any firearms here?


There have been two things brought up in the last few posts for people to think about, guns and Tian Xia. Tian Xia is the Golarion equivalent of China, Japan, Korea, etc. Now, where was gunpowder invented? China. So where would be a good place for expanded and updated rules for gunpowder, bombs, guns, and fireworks? The future Tian Xia/Oriental Adventures source books, of course. :)


James Jacobs wrote:
... we won't be adopting any of the events in any Adventure Paths or modules as "having happened."

I've only read a few Golarion modules, but one of those few was Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale (which was excellent, BTW.) When I read in the Gazetteer that "A recent passage opening through Bloodsworn Vale has given Nirmathas an independent trade partner on the western side of the Mindspin Mountains," it implies to me that Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale "happened."

Am I mistaken?


I like the guns, I'd love to see a Companion for them, but I just don't think they deserve 2+ pages in the campaign setting.

Alkenstar is fun, but it has as much relevance to most of the Inner Sea as Ilybdos, using that example. I'd love to see rules for Ilybdosian say bone-casting, but it'd be hugely misrepresentative (of its presence in the mainstream world, which is exactly what a Core Campaign Setting supplement is supposed to establish) in the main book, hell rules for the laser weapons are more relevant to the Campaign setting.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Aaron Bitman wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
... we won't be adopting any of the events in any Adventure Paths or modules as "having happened."

I've only read a few Golarion modules, but one of those few was Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale (which was excellent, BTW.) When I read in the Gazetteer that "A recent passage opening through Bloodsworn Vale has given Nirmathas an independent trade partner on the western side of the Mindspin Mountains," it implies to me that Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale "happened."

Am I mistaken?

Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale was one of the first Golarion things we put out. IIRC... it actually came out BEFORE the first Rise of the Runelords adventure. We hadn't quite figured out what we were doing at that point regarding the adoption of module and adventure events into timelines.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

I fully support the addition of information to the Campaign Setting hardcover, though the idea of going through and citing new pages numbers for everything we've already incorporated into the wiki is giving me a migraine.

As for guns, I think that the current level of detail is plenty given their overall impact on the world. If guns were more prevalent, then expanding this section would be necessary. But they exist in one region where they are needed as a surrogate to evocation magic to protect an isolated, magic-dead city-state from annihilation at the hands (and claws, and tentacles) of the abominations of the arcanely-warped wasteland that surrounds them. Having mechanics in the core setting book for these seems the right thing to do, even if it's not as much detail as one would want in a setting that had guns everywhere. I think making them prone to malfunction, slower to reload, and not necessarily that much more damage than a regular ranged weapon is one way to justify them not being more prevalent throughout the world. And that's what's been done thus far. The EWP requirement, expensive cost, and complications of use are more than enough incentive for armies and adventurers the world over to avoid them for the most part.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

yoda8myhead wrote:
I fully support the addition of information to the Campaign Setting hardcover, though the idea of going through and citing new pages numbers for everything we've already incorporated into the wiki is giving me a migraine.

Alas... I'm afraid that pretty much EVERY page number reference is going to change. One of the complaints we've heard about the PCCS is that it's not organized very logically and I happen to agree—finding out about Earthfall for the first time as something squirreled away in the dwarf race description is a good example of poor organization. And pretty much ALL of chapter 5 is gonna get reorganized—the "grab bag" nature of that section feels far to random to me.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

I completely understand. We can easily cite both editions simultaneously, which is what we'll probably do to begin with. I assume the cover and authors list and all that won't change, even though the content within will be different?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd like to add my support for guns. I'm a really big fan of gun-use in a fantasy setting.

However, if you were to simply take the current rules, not flesh them out more (or at the very least streamline them more in the current space available), then I'm not sure it's worth it. Personally I really want more information on Alkenstar and guns, but from what I've seen it isn't going to come for quite a long time as of yet...

So, done right, I'd 100% want it in the campaign setting. If it's short and unfinished and counted as "done," then leave it for a companion or chronicle.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

yoda8myhead wrote:
I completely understand. We can easily cite both editions simultaneously, which is what we'll probably do to begin with. I assume the cover and authors list and all that won't change, even though the content within will be different?

The author list might increase. The cover will probably change as well.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
The author list might increase. The cover will probably change as well.

Awww one of my favorite covers! But it's to be expected and probably a good idea to make the different editions more distinctive without plastering the Pathfinder RPG logo hugely across it.


James Jacobs wrote:
yoda8myhead wrote:
I completely understand. We can easily cite both editions simultaneously, which is what we'll probably do to begin with. I assume the cover and authors list and all that won't change, even though the content within will be different?
The author list might increase. The cover will probably change as well.

But still Wayne? Or Steve Prescott! Or could you fix the resolution errors on the original image?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Move over Reynolds and Prescott, we want a cover by Crystal Frasier !

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Gorbacz wrote:
Move over Reynolds and Prescott, we want a cover of Crystal Frasier!

fixed that for you

Paizo Employee Creative Director

vagrant-poet wrote:
But still Wayne? Or Steve Prescott! Or could you fix the resolution errors on the original image?

Still Wayne.

And with that, I've probably said too much!

Further details on this project will be available soon, so stay tuned!


James Jacobs wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
But still Wayne? Or Steve Prescott! Or could you fix the resolution errors on the original image?

Still Wayne.

And with that, I've probably said too much!

Further details on this project will be available soon, so stay tuned!

Thank you James!!! I knew I could rely on you! :D


What might be worth considering is moving the guns crunch into an free PDF external to the Campaign Setting, much like the traits document. The CS hardcover could reference it as available and that's enough of that. If the time comes to expand and develop those rules as a full product, the free PDF can be deprecated as incomplete. If folks want to play with those two/three pages, fine. If they want real rules, buy the appropriate product.

Again, IF there's justification for future development of those rules.


I don't yet own the CS (and will likely wait for the 2.0 release) but what I'd look for in terms of layout is: a chapter for world description and timeline, then a chapter for each major continent, then a chapter for major races, a chapter for major political/religious organizations, and a miscellaneous chapter to put it all together. That last chapter could include things like tables for travel between areas, tables regarding major taboos (such as what races are banned/mistreated in various regions) and the like. Basically, take the notes scattered throughout the rest of the book and compress them in handy references for the DM/players. Sure, you might find out tieflings aren't popular in Cheliax somewhere in the section on that nation... but that might be five to ten pages of text to search through.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
yoda8myhead wrote:
I fully support the addition of information to the Campaign Setting hardcover, though the idea of going through and citing new pages numbers for everything we've already incorporated into the wiki is giving me a migraine.

Alas... I'm afraid that pretty much EVERY page number reference is going to change. One of the complaints we've heard about the PCCS is that it's not organized very logically and I happen to agree—finding out about Earthfall for the first time as something squirreled away in the dwarf race description is a good example of poor organization. And pretty much ALL of chapter 5 is gonna get reorganized—the "grab bag" nature of that section feels far to random to me.

Now you are making me want to buy a new one. Yeah my current one works fine but as you mention is not really well organized in sections. Plus it sounds like you guys just might add a bit more too the book. Personally I would love that.

Liberty's Edge

My wife has made a dual revolver wielding gunslinger and would also be saddened to see rules cut out.

I think the general rules are fine enough though the optional ones I thought were awful. I could never see using a gun with those rules in place. I think as they stand it keeps them from being all over the place since they are weaker weapons anyway compared to longbows and such (though as my wife is doing you CAN dual wield pistols and revolvers but still, reload is horrible).

I have the first hardcover and look forward to buying the second reprint whenever it comes out ... but I do hope this is still included. I really loved the wayfinder prestige class for the Gunslinger and its something my wife's using and technically I already have the old rules if you guys choose to exclude them

... but still, it would make me sad T_T


Any chance of revising Appendix A? If you're looking at things to cut/include/expand - I'd put in a vote for keeping this as I find it remarkably useful in terms of looking for ideas.

My absolute preference would actually be to cut it from the campaign book and add a webpage which could be updated as adventures are released. I've seen it asked about before and have heard that you don't have the resources to devote to this. I dont really understand why it's not an easy thing to keep a pdf on the webpage somewhere and update it as adventure paths/modules come out. (Hopefully as simple as adding a number to the map and editting the key).


(With apologies, as I realise this thread is supposed to be about the pdf, but it seems to me to be where the main thrust of Campaign Setting attention is currently focused.)
Is a revised Campaign Setting (in print form) likely to be a future GenCon release? I appreciate that you can't put a precise date on release, because you need to wind up other projects first, and sell out of the current edition of the Campaign Setting, but it seems to me to be the sort of big hardcover release it would make sense to aim to release at GenCon one year.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Steve Geddes wrote:

Any chance of revising Appendix A? If you're looking at things to cut/include/expand - I'd put in a vote for keeping this as I find it remarkably useful in terms of looking for ideas.

My absolute preference would actually be to cut it from the campaign book and add a webpage which could be updated as adventures are released. I've seen it asked about before and have heard that you don't have the resources to devote to this. I dont really understand why it's not an easy thing to keep a pdf on the webpage somewhere and update it as adventure paths/modules come out. (Hopefully as simple as adding a number to the map and editting the key).

Appendix A, the list of adventure sites, is 99.94% likely to go away. Mostly because it'll become obsolete a month after the book is printed. An online version that could be regularly updated might be a better solution.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Misery wrote:
My wife has made a dual revolver wielding gunslinger and would also be saddened to see rules cut out.

Right now I'm leaning towards including SOME sort of info about guns in the revised book... although likely not as much info as in the current edition (the optional rules will likely go away). But even if we cut EVERYTHING... the rules still exist in the form of the current hardcover. So it's not like you won't be able to keep playing that type of character in the worst-case scenario...

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