Spiked gauntlet - is your hand free

[wraithstrike]

Mistwalker wrote:

Beastiary, page 302 wrote:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

To me, this means that the natural attack can be used at times even when that limb is holding something else.

That only refers to full attacks, and the fact that the weapon holding appendage can't be used to make natural attacks as part of the full attack action. If you forgo something you give it up, so if you use an appendage to wield a weapon that particular appendage can't be used as part of a secondary attack. This is also supported by several monster's stat blocks. If they could do both the weapon would get an attack, and then the claw/slam/etc would also get an attack. Would you really want a maralith hitting you 15 times*? The monster is limited to the swords or natural attacks because it cant do both.

*This is an estimate
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It is nowhere near broken or unreasonable to allow a gauntlet/natural attack to be used for an AoO. While its not RAW I do think its RAI.

[Shadowlord]

Mistwalker wrote:

You may have missed part of the rule

Beastiary, page 302 wrote:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

To me, this means that the natural attack can be used at times even when that limb is holding something else.

I didn't miss it. Actually the highlighted selection was the exact part that convinced me that you aren't meant to attack with the fist while wielding a weapon.

[Shadowlord]

Mistwalker wrote:

A bit off topic, but possibly relevant.

I am not sure how many on these forums have done any actual sword fighting. I am an amateur at it but I am progressing. I am using what is often refered to as a German Longsword (30"-36" blade with a hilt long enough for two hands and a bit)

My hands move on the hilt often, shortening a grip, adjusting for better lever action, etc.

I know that there have been times when I have had a hand leave the sword and punch an opponent when they have left themselves open to that (sounds a bit like and AoO doesn't it?). I have also punched with the crossguard of the sword and with the pummel.

Speaking of the pummel, it is not only used as a counter weight and to stop your hand from sliding off the end, but also to attack and if I am not mistaken, it is the origin of the the term "pummeling".

In some of the dagger work, I have punched with the hand holding the dagger at opportune times.

Doing something like what you are talking about would probably fall under the Improvised Weapon rules. In that case, Catch Off Guard is a really good feat to invest in, you would not take the -4 to use an improvised part of your weapon to strike an opponent and as an added bonus when you do they are caught flat footed. That is very good for Rogues.

[Shadowlord]

Well I was holding out for published answers to the action requirement questions but it doesn't look like there is any out there. For me at least I think the debate is over. RAW has been satisfied for me unless PF FAQ or publications come out with different, superseding rules:

.

1:

WotC Rules of the Game as posted by midnight:

Adjacent Squares and Reach Weapons: There are some tricks you can use to threaten those adjacent squares when you're using a reach weapon. If you're a monk, your unarmed attacks continue to threaten the squares adjacent to you. Even if you're not a monk, you can use a smaller weapon to threaten the adjacent squares. You'll have to hold the reach weapon in one hand and wield the smaller weapon in the other hand. Since most reach weapons are two-handed weapons, you're only holding onto the reach weapon, not wielding it, and you don't threaten an area with it. Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. Drawing the smaller weapon requires an action, but if you have the Quick Draw feat, it's a free action. Note that you can take a free action only during your turn.

If you want to use this trick, you must draw the smaller weapon while it's still your turn. When you do so, you don't threaten any area with your larger weapon until you wield it in two hands again. To resume using the bigger weapon on your turn, you'll have to drop the smaller weapon (a free action) to free up your hand for the bigger weapon.

Weapons such as the spiked gauntlet or armor spikes are ready for use whenever you have a free hand, and you don't need to drop them to use your hand for something else.

.....

Letting go = Free Action.
Punch with Spiked Gauntlet = Hand must be free.

2:

WotC FAQ as posted by James Risner:

Actually, the FAQ said it was a Free Action but only because it wasn't quite a Move Action.

This is refering to letting go of a weapon with one hand.

.....

Again: Letting go = Free Action.

3:

Natural Attack rules as pointed out by James Risner and wraithstrike:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

.....

This is not explicitly the same thing but it is the same basic idea and the rule is close enough to translate over.

Punching with Spiked Gauntlet while holding another weapon = No go. Again, the hand must be free.

.....

It seems the official answer is: You may not attack with a spiked gauntlet unless your hand is free. To let go of a two handed weapon (freeing your hand) is a free action. So, if someone wants to simultaneously threaten and be able to attack in their reach range and their adjacent range they must wear spiked armor, have Improved Unarmed Strike, or make house-rules regarding spiked gauntlets. Unless PF comes out with rules overturning it, that satisfies me for the time being regardless of my personal opinion toward the rulings.