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My group is looking to start an evil campaign, and we're having a couple issues with some of the templates in the Bestiary. I realize the rules aren't *intended* to be used with PCs, but everyone knows that they're going to play a lycanthrope at some point, or whatever.
So, my question is, should I use the CR adjustment as a level adjustment if the PCs want to start with a template, or should I use CR-1 (minimum of 1) for the adjustment, as if the template added racial hit dice?
Again, just curious if anyone else had considered trying this yet, or if I should just do my own thing?
So, my question is, should I use the CR adjustment as a level adjustment if the PCs want to start with a template, or should I use CR-1 (minimum of 1) for the adjustment, as if the template added racial hit dice?
No.
CR (challenge rating)and ECL (equivalent class level; AFAIK was done with in PF ) are not the same.If anything CR adjustments are lower than ECL is.
In general you should consider the longterm impact a template has on a character rather than the CR. CR is mostly (in my experience) relative to the mosters power in a single combat encounter. Creatures with greater versatility outside of battle will be relatively more powerful compared to their CR.
Templates are tricky. Look at the overall effect on the campaign and be extremely careful when granting at will powers. I suggest you never give players at-will powers - you can in stead reduce the number of uses to 3/day.
Generally a template should modify the characters level (ECL) by +1 or +2.
Paizo has stated that CR and LA are not equivalent, so they strongly discourage using that system to create monster PCs.
Instead, they recommend using your own experience and wisdom as a GM to experiment and come up with a balanced character yourself.
There are some loose suggestions and guidelines in the appendix of the Bestiary that can help you out a little bit, but there are no fast, easy or definitive methods.
Unfortunately, I'm not experienced enough as a GM to create balanced monster PCs, so I feel a little overwhelmed trying to do this myself because it's so ambiguous.
I do wish Paizo would create a Monsters as PCs book that has some "set in stone" rules so that the less experienced gamers like myself can create monster PCs with ease.
I do wish Paizo would create a Monsters as PCs book that has some "set in stone" rules so that the less experienced gamers like myself can create monster PCs with ease.
They've said it will happen, just not fast. On the other hand, the more people who politely ask for it, the faster that it will happen. Like any company, they need to know there is a big enough audience for it.
I would not expect it before 2011 at the earliest. I'm personally hoping Sean K Reynolds get's handed this project. He is the only one of the staff I've seen post that they are actually interested in it, James and Jason are rather heavily against the idea on a personal level, it seems from their posts. Sean is pumped for it, and he worked on the better parts of Savage Species, so that's encouraging.
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My group is looking to start an evil campaign, and we're having a couple issues with some of the templates in the Bestiary. I realize the rules aren't *intended* to be used with PCs, but everyone knows that they're going to play a lycanthrope at some point, or whatever.
So, my question is, should I use the CR adjustment as a level adjustment if the PCs want to start with a template, or should I use CR-1 (minimum of 1) for the adjustment, as if the template added racial hit dice?
Again, just curious if anyone else had considered trying this yet, or if I should just do my own thing?
Secret ballot everyone around the table, including yourself, as to what they think the LA of all of the characters should be, including their own. Average the results and use that as a start. Then see how it goes.
My group is looking to start an evil campaign, and we're having a couple issues with some of the templates in the Bestiary. I realize the rules aren't *intended* to be used with PCs, but everyone knows that they're going to play a lycanthrope at some point, or whatever.
So, my question is, should I use the CR adjustment as a level adjustment if the PCs want to start with a template, or should I use CR-1 (minimum of 1) for the adjustment, as if the template added racial hit dice?
Again, just curious if anyone else had considered trying this yet, or if I should just do my own thing?
For lycantheropes, specifically: You might check out a publication by Paradigm, titled Slaves of the Moon: The Essential Guide to Lycanthropes.
It's rather enjoyable, and spends some time on the different cultures, as well as providing several class and PrC options for them.
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The monsters as PCs section of the Bestiary has excellent advice for adjudicating this. The short version is that a humanoid werewolf's abilities from werewolf fade when normal PCs reach 3rd level (assuming the party started at 2nd level - the Bestiary doesn't recommend using creatures such as the werewolf at 1st level). Using the language from the Bestiary, here is how the werewolf advances.
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 2nd-level characters, a werewolf (CR 2) would possess no levels of a core class. (For argument's sake, lets say the werewolf wants to be a barbarian.)
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the werewolf example, when the group is at a point between 2nd and 3rd level, the werewolf gains a level, and then again at 3rd, making him a werewolf barbarian 2. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
Of course, all that goes out the window if *everyone* in the party is monstrous.
Of course, all that goes out the window if *everyone* in the party is monstrous.
Actually, you should follow the same logic even if *everyone* in the party is monstrous. I run such a campaign. It makes things easier to calculate CR's to send against them, etc.
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Actually, you should follow the same logic even if *everyone* in the party is monstrous.
That's inherently impossible without adjudicating some home rules regarding how CR equates to experience points and levels. If there is no standard on which to base when "the group" gains a level, there is no method for the monstrous PCs to gain their extra level.
I would not expect it before 2011 at the earliest. I'm personally hoping Sean K Reynolds get's handed this project. He is the only one of the staff I've seen post that they are actually interested in it, James and Jason are rather heavily against the idea on a personal level, it seems from their posts. Sean is pumped for it, and he worked on the better parts of Savage Species, so that's encouraging.
I like some Sean's work, but the Savage Species book was a real disapointment for me.
I do not really crave rules for mostrous characters. My own experience serves me better than the Savage Species ever did. "If" Paizo decides to go for a monster PC book I hope they find someone else for the job. Sean has had his try.
I would not expect it before 2011 at the earliest. I'm personally hoping Sean K Reynolds get's handed this project. He is the only one of the staff I've seen post that they are actually interested in it, James and Jason are rather heavily against the idea on a personal level, it seems from their posts. Sean is pumped for it, and he worked on the better parts of Savage Species, so that's encouraging.I like some Sean's work, but the Savage Species book was a real disapointment for me.
I do not really crave rules for mostrous characters. My own experience serves me better than the Savage Species ever did. "If" Paizo decides to go for a monster PC book I hope they find someone else for the job. Sean has had his try.
Please note that you should identify which parts of Savage Species Sean worked on before you pan him. Not the entire book wath wrought by he.
Specifically, he worked on the section that had monstrous PC's worked up as racial classes. I used the Centaur class in a game I run, and it worked very well.
Actually, you should follow the same logic even if *everyone* in the party is monstrous.That's inherently impossible without adjudicating some home rules regarding how CR equates to experience points and levels. If there is no standard on which to base when "the group" gains a level, there is no method for the monstrous PCs to gain their extra level.
Actually, no it's not. I'm currently using the suggested rules in the bestiary, and so far at least, it's working well enough. I have a half-giant/half-dragon who, per the rules on page 313, at 9th level has only 8 class levels. He's about on par with the duerger with 9 class levels, and the two drow with 9 class levels. Are they perfect? No, but that's not the point. The point is, do you reach a reasonable level where any unbalance is no more noticeable than having 4 core race PC's with 9 levels and different stats and equipment? If the answer is 'No, it is no more noticeable', then you have achieved something akin to balance. More importantly, you can then use their CL's are a good guage of how much to throw at them in a fight.
Just last week I intentionally threw a CR 6 challenge, followed by a CR 9 challenge at them. The CR 6 challenge took up about 10% of their resources (took two rounds of combat to dispatch the nasty gators). The boosted skeletons and zombie (CR 9 total) took 4 rounds and depleted roughly 20-25% of their resources. So I would call that pretty good adjusting so far. Granted it's a small test case, and I haven't brought all the monstrous NPC's along for trial runs (just lizardfolk and catfolk so far, in addition to the above). But, I plan on sending in some Minotaur NPC's and other monstrous PC's as I have time and will see how good/bad they work with the suggested rules on P313 of the bestiary. If I have to adjust something, I will, but so far, it's working very nicely.
The point is, as the GM, I may have to adjust a specific race or PC to get them into a correct adjustment, but I need to adjust them to about the same level to ensure that I can set the CR's correctly. If I don't try to balance them, I end up with a CR 9 that's a cakewalk for one person in the group and another person ends up being killed every time by the same CR 9 encounter. That means they are not balanced against each other and somebody needs adjusting.
Please note that you should identify which parts of Savage Species Sean worked on before you pan him. Not the entire book wath wrought by he.
Specifically, he worked on the section that had monstrous PC's worked up as racial classes. I used the Centaur class in a game I run, and it worked very well.
I think large portions of the book were disappointing, but I do not remember the specifics. Nonetheless I would like a new perspective on the subject if it is going to be redone.
I did not find the monster classes very helpful. Even simple characters, like Githzerai where poorly balanced an the ones with racial HD where seldom put to much use as they balanced poorly against the core races.
I am not trying to pan Sean Raynolds, but if ever Paizo does a monster-PC book I would like a whole new spin on it, not just a revamp.