Arbitrarily I would say yes. The creature is helpless and this would represent the "cutting off the head" that was once a valid means of troll slaying. I'm curious about the official ruling though...
No, you cannot.
Simply because they keep regenerating after they are at negative levels.
Head cutting is neat and it did come up in a game once before. But you cannot kill a creature with regeneration by cutting it's head, it simply growns another head back.
Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning
Doesn't matter what you toss at them, where you hit them, how hard you hit them -- they cannot die unless you do something to stop their regeneration. That includes save-or-die attacks like a coup de grace.
Save or die effects used to kill them, which does make sense. However Coup de Grace is not really a death effect, otherwise protection from death spells would render the user imune to such things, which is blatantly foolish.
So if you have a creature with regeneration, like a troll, can you finish them off with a Coup de Grace? I'm leaning towards yes from the save or die portion, but I can see how it could be argued the other way. Is there something I'm missing, or an official ruling?
The new rules for regeneration are a lot less powerful then the 3.5 version.
Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature’s regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature’s descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.
With that in mind, it sounds like the answer to your question depends on if the Coup de Grace is performed the round after the creature takes damage that "disables" its regeneration. If so it dies normally, if not it has the regeneration ability active and cannot "die" from the save.
Correct. Fortunately, this isn't much of an issue aside from Tarrasques. For trolls, just do the coup de grace with a torch or flaming sword.
Correct. Fortunately, this isn't much of an issue aside from Tarrasques. For trolls, just do the coup de grace with a torch or flaming sword.Ehh, I was more speaking of spells like Slay living/power word kill type death effects, not the death effect from coup de grace. Or for that matter, disintegration.....so, you're dust, but not dead :).
does not work simply put. Unless ya turn off regen it will not keep them down
For trolls, just do the coup de grace with a torch or flaming sword.
Wrong, the loss of regen doesn't come up until the round after the damage was inflicted. Anything that happens that same round won't "count".
For trolls, just do the coup de grace with a torch or flaming sword.Wrong, the loss of regen doesn't come up until the round after the damage was inflicted. Anything that happens that same round won't "count".
Unless the coup de grace with the torch or flaming sword did enough damage to drive the troll to negative hit points sufficient so that it would die without regeneration... because at the start of its turn, thanks to having taken damage the from fire in the previous round, its regeneration turns off and it now dies.
As I understand it, anyway.
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Head cutting is neat and it did come up in a game once before. But you cannot kill a creature with regeneration by cutting it's head, it simply growns another head back.
I wonder if you cut a troll's head off and leave it, will the regeneration a) grow a new body from the head; b) grow a new head grow from the body; c) or both? Would there now be 2 trolls?
I would say a. It is the brain that controls regeneration, thus without a head, the body cannot regenerate one.
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Head cutting is neat and it did come up in a game once before. But you cannot kill a creature with regeneration by cutting it's head, it simply grows another head back.I wonder if you cut a troll's head off and leave it, will the regeneration a) grow a new body from the head; b) grow a new head grow from the body; c) or both? Would there now be 2 trolls?
I would say a. It is the brain that controls regeneration, thus without a head, the body cannot regenerate one.
I had a game once where the "replicant warrior trolls" had this ability. Where you cut off a body part and both the original troll and the body part regenerated. A wizard took to using a captive troll as parts. He would cut a hand off every night. The hand would crawl off. The troll would grow a new hand. The hand would grow a new troll. The people following them would fight a feral troll or two the next day. While the party was miles ahead and the wizard would then cut off a foot and watch it flop off into the desert. The troll slowly went insane and they had to finally put their "draft horse" down with acid at the end of this long desert. The group who was following always wondered where all the desert trolls came from.
Head cutting is neat and it did come up in a game once before. But you cannot kill a creature with regeneration by cutting it's head, it simply growns another head back.I wonder if you cut a troll's head off and leave it, will the regeneration a) grow a new body from the head; b) grow a new head grow from the body; c) or both? Would there now be 2 trolls?
I would say a. It is the brain that controls regeneration, thus without a head, the body cannot regenerate one.
I remember a scene in a dragonlance book where a knight cut a troll in half and then had two to deal with. That was awesome, I can't remember but I think he ended up braining them with burning wood from his campfire.
For trolls, just do the coup de grace with a torch or flaming sword.Wrong, the loss of regen doesn't come up until the round after the damage was inflicted. Anything that happens that same round won't "count".Unless the coup de grace with the torch or flaming sword did enough damage to drive the troll to negative hit points sufficient so that it would die without regeneration... because at the start of its turn, thanks to having taken damage the from fire in the previous round, its regeneration turns off and it now dies.
As I understand it, anyway.
Well, first the coup de grace isn't what kills the troll. That damage happens immediately and the regen doesn't go away until 1 round after that damage was inflicted. The initial attack from the coup de grace could never kill even with the type of damage that the creature is vulnerable to.
If it ends up in the negatives and not so far below to be "dead" it stays unconscious for the round and unless more damage is done the creature will stay unconscious for a round and start regen'ing from that point the round after. This means it could possibly come back to get the party.
If it has been reduced to negative hit points and at "dead" (end total being -Con score), depending on when the round falls (before or after the damage ends the regeneration) the creature may not be dead really. If the creature is so far in the negative it is "dead" and the round "ends" after the creatures regen heals it in the current round to a point above dead (creature acts before the damage that ends the regeneration happens), it sits at negatives for another round and then the round later starts to heal again if left alone.
Basically to be safe I would say hit the creature with damage that ends the regen continually every round and inflict damage even after it may be down. Basically hack it to pieces ;)
For trolls, just do the coup de grace with a torch or flaming sword.Wrong, the loss of regen doesn't come up until the round after the damage was inflicted. Anything that happens that same round won't "count".Hmm..that brings up a question what they meant for 'a round'. Do they mean from the top to the bottom of an initiative order? Or, a round from the action of player A who initiated it, until the next time player A goes? I submit its more likely the latter....like spells that player casts. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for the time of this effect to work the same as the time of any other effects that a player creates.
I think this is a very valid point, it does seem awkward as written. It could be a simple error "on the round following" instead of "for the round following". I would house rule it thus, if there is no errata forthcoming.
In 3.5 you do not "turn off" the creatures regen, but once put down, if you Coup de Grace with an anti-regen attack they can be killed by it. It seems to me that the intention of the new rule is to allow others the chance to finish off the troll so that the party only needs one flaming weapon....or after a fireball or scorching ray drops them, the whole party sets upon them and finishes them.
I think this is a very valid point, it does seem awkward as written. It could be a simple error "on the round following" instead of "for the round following". I would house rule it thus, if there is no errata forthcoming.In 3.5 you do not "turn off" the creatures regen, but once put down, if you Coup de Grace with an anti-regen attack they can be killed by it. It seems to me that the intention of the new rule is to allow others the chance to finish off the troll so that the party only needs one flaming weapon....or after a fireball or scorching ray drops them, the whole party sets upon them and finishes them.
Actually I don't think you have that right in terms of 3.5 either. It wasn't the fact that regeneration was some how effected by the anti-regen attack in a coup de grace, 3.5 regeneration caused all damage to become non-lethal unless it was a type it was vulnerable to. There was no "cannot die while regen is up" clause in 3.5 so it could die from a failed save regardless of the damage type or attack that delivered it.
In 3.5, IIRC, typically the only way to actually kill the creature with regen was to deal HP+10 of damage it was vulnerable to. Usually this came about after the party jumped on it and dropped the creature to unconscious then continued to pummel it to keep it down, while slowly beating it to death with the attack it was vulnerable to till that particular type of attack met that threshold. And then the creature was dead.
It may sound wonky in PFRPG, but in reality it is much less complicated than it sounds:
Character with anti regen attack hits creature with regen.
(random combat stuff after)
-Character with anti regen attack's action comes up (regen has stopped)-
*commence with Operation: Kill Vulnerable Creature*
Obviously house rule as you see fit, but it doesn't seem to be so complicated as to actually need to be from my perspective. The round also acts as a buffer, regen will stay on for a bit after the attack and losing regen could change an intelligent creatures tactics, doing it this way is definitely more "fair" in terms of the way actions play out in a combat scenario.