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Okay, so according to the Bestiary, goblins are universally illiterate and they take a Charisma penelty. So how do goblins become arcane casters? Wizards have to read, so there could be no goblin wizards. Sorcerers need good Charisma, so goblin sorcerers are at a serious disadvantage. Is there any good way to build a goblin arcane caster?
Goblins are universally illiterate? Well, aside from throwing that out or spending skill points to gain literacy, there is one way, though it's kinda weird. The goblin may not be able to read, but the same constraint doesn't apply to that sentient critter familiar. Have your pet raven read your spells for you when you prepare. Until you can get Improved Familiar to get something with opposable thumbs, you probably can't actually write your spellbook yourself, but you can hire someone to do the scribing for you, or you could steal someone else's spellbook and decipher it through your familiar.
This becomes easier when you get an imp or a mephit familiar.
Alternately, import stuff from 3.5. Bastards and Bloodlines has a feat, Lost Tradition, that could change the casting stat of any casting class (mental stats only, of course; no Con-based sorcerer for you. :P). So, you could slap it on a goblin Sorcerer to have her operate off of wisdom or intelligence.
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A good arcane caster does not mean a great arcane caster. So with a poor charisma you can still have a possibility of a goblin bard or sorcerer, just not one slapping around high level spells.
Much like Dwarves make reasonable Paladins even with their CHA penalty, It's possible to make reasonable Goblin Sorcerers, they're just going to be a little different over the "preferred" races.
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A Goblin spellbook might have pictograms and diagrams rather than words. He still can't read but illiterate scrawl can be intensely meaningful to the person who writes it. Spellbooks can't be read without magical help anyway. How he learned could be from a captive spellcaster who taught him how to cast by rote in exchange for not being eaten.
Alternatively, the goblin wizard could be the same as the non-evil Demon. It's possible, even though they are "always evil" it's just a one in a billion chance. Your goblin wizard is the only goblin wizard so far seen on Golarion. He might still be nervous of writing, but he has the-knowing-of-the-words a little bit.
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GOBLIN CHARACTERS
Goblins are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. All goblins have the following racial traits.
–2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, –2 Charisma: Goblins are fast, but weak and unpleasant to be around.
Small: Goblins are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Fast: Goblins are fast for their size, and have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: +4 racial bonus on Ride and Stealth checks.
Languages: Goblins begin play speaking Goblin. Goblins with high Intelligence scores can choose any of these bonus languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Gnoll, Gnome, Halfling, Orc.
Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.
So a Goblin NPC sorcerer could cast 1st level spells at first level. Upon reaching 4th level and gaining an increase in one stat the same sorcerer could then cast 2nd level spells. After this though is when he starts hurting. Since he will not be able to cast his 3rd levels spells until 8th level. But with judicious use of meta magic feats he could then make use of his higher level spell slots without his access to 4th level spells. Or at least a mean GM would rule that way for him.
As for a wizard, well I personally would just make him take a level of warrior or commoner first and have him sink a skill level into Linguistics. This will now allow him to learn what it is he needs to know to be a wizard. And allow him to better able to make use of that class.
The business about the goblins being illiterate and fearing written works and so on is cool flavor text and cultural baggage for Golarion, but it hardly needs to exist in every world.
FWIW, I make illiteracy the default for all characters unless you have a reason why you learned to read.
But assuming Golarion and assuming the goblin flavor text, either you have a goblin who was not raised by goblin (a good pet project for a mad wizard) or you have a goblin teenager who was out to piss off his tribe and wanted to do the scariest thing he could think of: Learn to read! And when that itself wasn't scary enough, he picked up some wizardry.
Assuming that goblin society is anything like human society, this makes goblin wizards exceedingly likely. Forbidding something just make it more attractive.
Assuming that goblin society is anything like human society, this makes goblin wizards exceedingly likely. Forbidding something just make it more attractive.
Yes, but it doesn't take several years to learn how to wear too much black and listen to music your parents don't like. Thus, it's brought back down to extremely rare.
Yes, but it doesn't take several years to learn how to wear too much black and listen to music your parents don't like. Thus, it's brought back down to extremely rare.Assuming that goblin society is anything like human society, this makes goblin wizards exceedingly likely. Forbidding something just make it more attractive.
Oh, I don't know. Beat up a wizard, take his spellbooks, and then dance on his dead body while wearing his pointy hat, not realizing that the hat is cursed! Curse, I tell you! Look at the horrible mind-blighting goblin-bane enchantment the fiendish wizard placed on his hat:
Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic
Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic: Appearing as a normal helmet, a helm of comprehend languages and read magic grants its wearer the ability to understand the spoken words of any creature and to read text in any language and any magical writing. The wearer gains a +5 competence bonus on Decipher Script checks to understand messages written in incomplete, archaic, or exotic forms. Note that understanding a magical text does not necessarily imply spell use.
Faint divination; CL 4th; Craft Wondrous Item, comprehend languages, read magic; Price 5,200 gp; Weight 3 lb.
Possessed by the power of the foul hat, the poor goblin suddenly understands the wicked wicked written words, and can read the dead wizard's spellbook, and even figure out how to become a wizard himself, no longer secure in the comfort of his own illiteracy.
One thing to note is that "always" generally means more along the line of 95+% for most generalization purposes. Demons may be "always chaotic/evil," but there are a scant few neutral- and good-aligned demons across the various canons. That an old and wise chromatic dragon wouldn't have the freedom to choose to not be evil like any other intelligent being is absurd.
Likewise, "always illiterate," is absurd unless read as, "illiterate 95+% of the time," in which case that one strange goblin Wizard who can read is perfectly valid.
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One thing to note is that "always" generally means more along the line of 95+% for most generalization purposes. Demons may be "always chaotic/evil," but there are a scant few neutral- and good-aligned demons across the various canons. That an old and wise chromatic dragon wouldn't have the freedom to choose to not be evil like any other intelligent being is absurd.
Likewise, "always illiterate," is absurd unless read as, "illiterate 95+% of the time," in which case that one strange goblin Wizard who can read is perfectly valid.
You knwo what that is open for debate. Golarian goblins have a cultural bias. demons not so much. There is and should be some monsters that are always evil.
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you have a few options on how to view this, in my opinion.
1- use the adpet NPC class. You have some arcane magic in there, but its wisdom based divine magic. Easy, but doesn't really fit the bill.
2- Burnt offerings AP #1, saw goblin warchanters which were bards. That sets a precedent that Goblins do have spontaneous arcane casters of at least one type. you can just use those (even with the ch hit)
3- My prefered interpretation is to use the elite array for any NPC caster anyway, which would allow a reasonable ch or int for a goblin caster. In PFRPG, I might even build any goblin sorcerer as a PC with point buy. i do that for many classed races already, why would you be prejudiced against the little buggers?
Anyway, I see no problem in the rules for arcane casters, other than the throwaway illiteracy reference.
I am hating you all. You are paying, Paizo! I am going to be getting my spells back one way or one other!
You knwo what that is open for debate. Golarian goblins have a cultural bias. demons not so much. There is and should be some monsters that are always evil.One thing to note is that "always" generally means more along the line of 95+% for most generalization purposes. Demons may be "always chaotic/evil," but there are a scant few neutral- and good-aligned demons across the various canons. That an old and wise chromatic dragon wouldn't have the freedom to choose to not be evil like any other intelligent being is absurd.
Likewise, "always illiterate," is absurd unless read as, "illiterate 95+% of the time," in which case that one strange goblin Wizard who can read is perfectly valid.
A cultural bias is never 100% for anything with any culture. You'll always find heretics, mavericks, free thinkers, black sheep, and outright crazy people, along with little pockets and subcultures that failed to get the memo.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Goblins believe that writing steals words out of your head, and as a result of this belief, goblins are universally illiterate.
Since when have Wizards ever been dissuaded by the idea of personal sacrifice? I happen to like the idea of the Goblin wizard reading and writing his spells, firmly believing he's slowly losing parts of his mind to fuel his magic. Heck, maybe he is.
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Use an alternative means of storing information, such as with beads or knotwork
The Goblin Wizards 'spellbook' could be a collection of knotted strings all rolled up and stored away in a pack, or hung carefully on the wall of his cave. To prepare spells, he traces his pudgy fingers along the strings, with his eyes closed, measuring the spaces between knots.
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Use an alternative means of storing information, such as with beads or knotwork
The Goblin Wizards 'spellbook' could be a collection of knotted strings all rolled up and stored away in a pack, or hung carefully on the wall of his cave. To prepare spells, he traces his pudgy fingers along the strings, with his eyes closed, measuring the spaces between knots.
That is really cool with the link and really broadens the idea of how beings would keep ideas and traditions without actual written words.
Thanks for that link, I would love to see more similar ideas from real-world cultures that could be used in D&D.
Use an alternative means of storing information, such as with beads or knotwork
The Goblin Wizards 'spellbook' could be a collection of knotted strings all rolled up and stored away in a pack, or hung carefully on the wall of his cave. To prepare spells, he traces his pudgy fingers along the strings, with his eyes closed, measuring the spaces between knots.
casters in darksun did just this, or used beads, or linked carved stone, wood or bone. There almost was no such thing as a spellbook
One of the first things I drew up after the Bestiary Preview came out was a goblin sorcerer. It was much more fun with the Golarian flavor than it would have been without!
With magic in his blood and a naturally high Charisma, Tigok the Chosen knew himself to be a lion among goblins. He carried a magical flaming scepter representing his supernatural might, kept covered until he wanted to show the enemy how goddamned awesome he was. (It was actually a medium-sized silvered heavy mace with continual flame, lifted off the corpse of a cleric of Sarenrae.) He had gathered a tribe of his own, the bravest of the brave (i.e. those who didn't shun or mock him for his magic), and declared war on a small human village. War meant chicken dinners every night.
As an aside, sleep is a really mean spell against a first-level party. :D
With magic in his blood and a naturally high Charisma, Tigok the Chosen knew himself to be a lion among goblins. He carried a magical flaming scepter representing his supernatural might, kept covered until he wanted to show the enemy how goddamned awesome he was. (It was actually a medium-sized silvered heavy mace with continual flame, lifted off the corpse of a cleric of Sarenrae.) He had gathered a tribe of his own, the bravest of the brave (i.e. those who didn't shun or mock him for his magic), and declared war on a small human village. War meant chicken dinners every night.
No, war does not mean chicken dinners every night.
Baleful Polymorph, OTOH, does mean chicken dinners every night!
And every knight too....
No, war does not mean chicken dinners every night.
It does when your battles of conquest consist of stealing a bunch of chickens.
GOBLIN CHARACTERS
Goblins are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. All goblins have the following racial traits.** spoiler omitted **Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.
So a Goblin NPC sorcerer could cast 1st level spells at first level. Upon reaching 4th level and gaining an increase in one stat the same sorcerer could then cast 2nd level spells. After this though is when he starts hurting. Since he will not be able to cast his 3rd levels spells until 8th level. But with judicious use of meta magic feats he could then make use of his higher level spell slots without his access to 4th level spells. Or at least a mean GM would rule that way for him.As for a wizard, well I personally would just make him take a level of warrior or commoner first and have him sink a skill level into Linguistics. This will now allow him to learn what it is he needs to know to be a wizard. And allow him to better...
OK, where can we find racial modifiers like this for the monsterous non-human races?
But here is the deal. They are not designed to be Player characters. They are set up to be improved through character classes.
THANKS!
I understand that they are not completely balanced. Butso far I've had three PF players who asked if they could play Kobolds... And I've always had a thing for Bugbears.
Possessed by the power of the foul hat, the poor goblin suddenly understands the wicked wicked written words, and can read the dead wizard's spellbook, and even figure out how to become a wizard himself, no longer secure in the comfort of his own illiteracy.
Absolutely brilliant.
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Well, if I were stating up a goblin spellcaster with any arcane PC class I would use the elite array which is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. That gives the goblin sorcerer a little more wiggle room.
Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
Depending on his level he may not need much wiggle room at all. Any thing under 5th level should be ok with the default. Honestly if he is a higher level goblin then that he better be Elite at the very least. Maybe he has a nifty headband of intellect?
I think the rule is the elite array for anything what is using PC classes.
I think the rule is the elite array for anything what is using PC classes.
Well... generally. There are exceptions, even if you're strictly following that guideline: a 1st-level commoner (non-elite) might wind up getting wrapped up in an adventure, and coming out of it with a rogue level, which wouldn't cause his attributes to suddenly increase.
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I think the rule is the elite array for anything what is using PC classes.
the standard example of a Goblin is a Warrior, a non pc class, as such I made that as my base for Kobolds. there is no reason anyone else should. in fact:
If the NPC possesses levels in a PC class, it is considered a heroic NPC and receives better ability scores.
and if you choose the heroic npc ability score well you can get him up to around 13th level of ability without him starting to just naturally suck. This is also a very nasty surprise for PCs.
Any time you start talking about monster PCs you need to talk to your GM first. Assuming he green lights it (or you are the GM)...
Player characters are not 'normal' anything, I don't see why you couldn't build a goblin wizard. It would likely be a fairy unique character. One possibility is that perhaps the was born some other race and did some great service for a druid and was reincarnated as a goblin. As a side not, normal goblins would probably hate goblin wizards as much or more than anyone.
Goblins are well suited for making decent wizards, high DEX and penalties to STR and CHA plays quite well with wizards. A touch attack/ ray specialist would be a natural fit for a goblin (note touch/ ray wizards aren't the most optimized wizards but they can be fun).
If you have to do the universal illiteracy thing goblins could still make decent bards since the bards spell progression is so much slower than other classes you only need a 16 CHA to get all the spell levels. Max out your CHA at first level and plan the spend all your ability bonuses on CHA and get items when you can. You have a +4 DEX modifier so the an obvious route is to build your character as an bard archer. Treantmonk put a good guide up for doing exactly that recently.
Also, even sorcerer goblins wouldn't be half bad. With a 20 point buy you could bump CHA to 15 at first level and still have an 18 CHA by 12th level. Put 5 points into CON and 2 into DEX and you will be evry hard to hit and touch attacks will be easy. Your DCs would suffer and you will miss a few bonus spells but if you choose spells which don't use saving throws you will be pretty solid. Battlefield control, summoning, touch attacks all work great and many have no saves. You could even consider dipping a few levels in rogue and going Arcane Trickster.
One of the first things I drew up after the Bestiary Preview came out was a goblin sorcerer. It was much more fun with the Golarian flavor than it would have been without!
With magic in his blood and a naturally high Charisma, Tigok the Chosen knew himself to be a lion among goblins. He carried a magical flaming scepter representing his supernatural might, kept covered until he wanted to show the enemy how goddamned awesome he was. (It was actually a medium-sized silvered heavy mace with continual flame, lifted off the corpse of a cleric of Sarenrae.) He had gathered a tribe of his own, the bravest of the brave (i.e. those who didn't shun or mock him for his magic), and declared war on a small human village. War meant chicken dinners every night.
As an aside, sleep is a really mean spell against a first-level party. :D
I think I'm in love.
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what would the racial modifiers be for a Gnoll?
As linked earlier in the thread, rules for making monsters as PCs: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html
Gnoll from the online Beastiary: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-g/gnoll
reviewing the Gnoll, I see that they have two hit dice, both of which are from Humanoid monster type (i.e., not a class). This means there are no 'adjustments' for their ability scores.
They are CR 1, which means one as a PC (with absolutely no adjustments to ability scores or any levels in a class) is equivalent to a First level Human Fighter, or First Level Elf Wizard. The Gnoll would be a First Level Gnoll with no class, and his ability scores would be exactly what they are in the monster manual.
To summarize the Monsters as PC rules, If you want to play a monster as a PC, you take the monster, completely as is, at the listed CR, treat it as a ready to go Player Character, and begin advancing using the current class rules. Only exception is they do get full starting gold according to their (total) character level.
Goblins are very well suited to be Pact Magicians. They live in a world where everything is ranked by by who is bigger and meaner than you are. They are used to sacrifice. They have vivid imaginations and a regular birth rate. Pact magic can be all glyphs and mysticism no writing involved.
Sigurd