Yes, now we can play Dr. Jeckyll. What do you guys want to see in this class?
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Yes, now we can play Dr. Jeckyll. What do you guys want to see in this class?
My initial preconception of this class, an alchemical fire-throwing skillmonkey, has changed pretty radically with the new understanding of it as more of an 'internal alchemist' who transforms themself with potions. It's almost like the Transmutation version of a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, it seems, a base class designed around a single school of effect.
I'm less in love with the transformer concept, although I'll admit that a pure shapeshifter type class has always appealed to me (sort of a Druid who cheaps out on spells, other class features and animal companion to just be the king of Wild Shape).
The Alchemist sounds like it won't necessarily be changing shape, just 'roiding up with self-buffing elixirs, which, IMO, takes away either of the niches I would have been most interested in seeing (skill-based firebomb-chucker or shapechanger).
I don't think I know enough about this class, really, to make suggestions. Is it skill based? Does it cast spells? What sort of fighting ability does it have?
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I don't think I know enough about this class, really, to make suggestions. Is it skill based? Does it cast spells? What sort of fighting ability does it have?
Blind Predictions (and, indeed, wants):
Skills: as 4 or 6 per; Base Attack: 3/4ths
Abilities: It will be both the self-transmuter and the firebomb-chucker. It will not have spells, but may have a spell list (or something similar) for the crafting of its elixers, stones, and whatnots. Without using these specific words, this class will reek of 'science' and 'steam-tech/punk/etc' as we romanticize it in the Victorian era.
Miscellany: Alchemy will evolve into term equivalent to arcane or divine. (Please?)
I hope the bombing aspect of the class and the potential skill monkey aspect are kept. It's hard to make a bombing character at all in the current system outside of evocation. I also hope it gets a 3/4 bab and d8 HD, as I personally see it more as a hybrid class than I do a caster.
As for potions, I'm hoping that list looks more like a warlock or wilder than it does a wizard. A dozen or so useful potions for a hybrid character sounds fun, but, if it has a 'casting' progression in terms of X level X spells per day, I don't really see the point.
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This class almost feels like it would be better suited having two BAB / HD columns. If it's a potion-mixing expert, there's really no logical reason for it to have better HD or BAB than a Sorcerer or Wizard, as neither Bruce Banner, or Dr. Jekyll were suspiciously good fighters. When it 'roids up and goes Hulk Smash, a full BAB and d10 or even d12 HD would be the only things that would make it able to even function as the sickly stepsister of a Fighter, Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian, since the Alchemist won't have the specific Feats or class abilities that make those melee classes shine.
3/4 BAB and d8 HD might seem like an okay compromise, but it ends up making the nerdy little potion-flinger too competent and the 'roid rager not nearly competent enough for their roles.
IMO.
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I don't think I know enough about this class, really, to make suggestions. Is it skill based? Does it cast spells? What sort of fighting ability does it have?Blind Predictions (and, indeed, wants):
Skills: as 4 or 6 per; Base Attack: 3/4ths
Abilities: It will be both the self-transmuter and the firebomb-chucker. It will not have spells, but may have a spell list (or something similar) for the crafting of its elixers, stones, and whatnots. Without using these specific words, this class will reek of 'science' and 'steam-tech/punk/etc' as we romanticize it in the Victorian era.
Miscellany: Alchemy will evolve into term equivalent to arcane or divine. (Please?)
I'd love to have the Alchemist be a steam punk style'd char, give him guns as well as bombs and I'd be in heaven...
I think that this could be one of the paths, but I understand the Alchemist is to be more like one of the students of hermetic arts who seek to transform things through various processes toward perfection, trying to create the elixir of youth and learn the secret to transorm lesser metals to perfect form.
The alchemist could have abilities to transform materials, creatures and themselves as well. Alchemy is much more than just things that go boom.
This class almost feels like it would be better suited having two BAB / HD columns. If it's a potion-mixing expert, there's really no logical reason for it to have better HD or BAB than a Sorcerer or Wizard, as neither Bruce Banner, or Dr. Jekyll were suspiciously good fighters. When it 'roids up and goes Hulk Smash, a full BAB and d10 or even d12 HD would be the only things that would make it able to even function as the sickly stepsister of a Fighter, Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian, since the Alchemist won't have the specific Feats or class abilities that make those melee classes shine.
3/4 BAB and d8 HD might seem like an okay compromise, but it ends up making the nerdy little potion-flinger too competent and the 'roid rager not nearly competent enough for their roles.
IMO.
I don't know about the alternate HD (that might become a pain in the ass and you could easily get that effect from adding con) but I'm on board for two BAB columns. Assuming the class is going to be partially based on long-term hyding, it would make the transformation a lot more dramatic. Besides, the precedent for it with the monk.
I also think it's pretty important that this class be a competent secondary healer. One of things I think Pathfinder did really well was introduce the paladin as a potential healer. Obviously, no one should be as good as the cleric, but there's plenty of room alongside the druid, paladin, and bard in the second tier, and the more classes can perform vital duties like healing, the larger varieties of parties we get to see (I personally hate playing in groups that are "cleric, rogue, X, and X".)
Maybe they should get to brew specially empowered potions, or be able to combine multiple effects into them or something to that effect.
I would think healing potions would be a part of the class, yeah
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NO SPELLS, that's my request, ABSOLUTELY NO SPELLS, let me repeat that DO NOT GIVE THE ALCHEMIST A SPELL PROGRESSION. This book already has the inquisitor, the Oracle, the witch, and the summoner, that's 4 of six friggen classes with a spell progression, this is one of the few times you'll see me using caps to emphasize that I'm shouting this, THE ALCHEMIST IS COOL AS A SKILL BASED CLASS DO NOT GIVE IT SPELLS AND MAKE IT ANOTHER FRIGGEN CASTER.
other than that, 3/4 bab, 6-8 skill points per level, and give it the ability to increase the save DCs and damage of normal alchemical items. I have a homebrewed alchemist class that does this well balanced and fun without being overpowered using the normal alchemical items found in 3.5 books. I would really hate to see this class not make use of the classic alchemical items in the game, but i do like the self buffing brew aspect, as long as it isn't the alchemists only schtick.
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I think he is going to have a form of spell progression. I believe he will have a number of concoctions he can make per day and what "level" the concoctions are. They will probably last for 24 hours like spells. Not sure as it isn't out yet, but I also feel that most of the core design work for the class will be immutable after beta starts and they will be doing minor tweaking to bring it into balance and make it more fun to play.
* 'he' in the above paragraph can be replaced with 'she' at the readers option.
My plea -- please, don't make the alchemist's mechanic be "rounds per day" like the bard or the barbarian (or the various wizard school/cleric domain powers). Longer term effects need love, too!
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I also think it's pretty important that this class be a competent secondary healer. One of things I think Pathfinder did really well was introduce the paladin as a potential healer. Obviously, no one should be as good as the cleric, but there's plenty of room alongside the druid, paladin, and bard in the second tier, and the more classes can perform vital duties like healing, the larger varieties of parties we get to see (I personally hate playing in groups that are "cleric, rogue, X, and X".)
Maybe they should get to brew specially empowered potions, or be able to combine multiple effects into them or something to that effect.
Healing potions and ungents fine, healing spells I absolutely hope not.
Spells no. But healing potions suck right now. Whatever the Alchemist gets needs to be better than that. As I said, a free empower, or, perhaps, a secondary effect tied to healing like the lay on hands mechanic. Also, as cool as fast heal and regeneration seem, it's unlikely they'll make for an even remotely decent second string healer.
Above all the alchemist should be the master of physiology.
I see three primary types of brews.
The alchemist should be the master of long term buffs. If the party is going to be underground and need so see, the alchemist would be able to brew up something for the entire party.
Not healing 'magic' but as someone suggested above potions that give someone fast healing would be a nice addition to the class.
As a flavor element there should be some freaky side effects, some would be just for the duration of the change, some would turn out to be permanent.
Further out there:
I would love to see a little Igor thrown in here. Igor is a ?race? in Pratchetts Disc world books that are essentially mad scientists assistants.
They do massive body modification to themselves and others. Someone loses a hand? The Igor sews it back on, or sews a better one on from a corpse. You go blind? The igor replaces your eyes. I think these sorts of things would go well with the alchemist class (Maybe instead of sewing a replacement on they brew a potion and you regrow it.
They would be able to sew on third arms, add an extra 6" to your legs so you run faster, other crazy things like that.
I think the alchemist would be well-suited for an approach in which their abilities product a large positive effect at the cost of a smaller negative effect.
This would let the designers create some abilities that would be more powerful than normally allowable, but balance them off with a drawback that goes with using them.
I think this would fit well with the Jekyll/Hyde feel of alchemy, which is to say that you can gain tremendous short-term benefits, but possibly at the cost of the long-term.
CR
Well, I would give the Alchemist a spell list, but not the ability to cast spells. Just because of magic item use and item creation.
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They do massive body modification to themselves and others. Someone loses a hand? The Igor sews it back on, or sews a better one on from a corpse. You go blind? The igor replaces your eyes. I think these sorts of things would go well with the alchemist class (Maybe instead of sewing a replacement on they brew a potion and you regrow it.
They would be able to sew on third arms, add an extra 6" to your legs so you run faster, other crazy things like that.
As a huge Pratchett fan you have now inspired me to create a Churigeon class that does exactly this lol, of course it will have to be self only, but nonetheless.
I think that the essence of the class has been defined, if somewhat loosely, as a class that uses potions/equipment to take advantage of class abilities. So in some ways it will be like an artificer, that is, a class that is defined by tool-use. In a way, the class will probably have spells but its delivery method will be juice!
As for requests/neat ideas, I think what would be neat is if the alchemists "transformation" was taking elixirs that give him templates, like celestial or abyssal, or undead for temporary amounts of time. This might function like a druid's wildshape, providing some attribute bonuses, some immunities, and some special attacks/qualities.
RP-wise the alchemist might be looking to refine his body into something god-like, some kind of "all-being" this is connected to all aspects of the universe, perhaps like Borges' Aleph?
So hmmm what else might the alchemist be doing? Making alchemical items? He might use a small bonus to craft those, or perhaps use Craft (alchemy) as skill mechanic for creating his potions/effects.
Remember that everything needs to be balanced. Giving one class a bunch of multi-hour buffs is not normally what I think of as balanced. Most spells have the duration they do to try to balance them with other similar abilities in the game.
So the cleric, druid, and wizard classes aren't balanced?
There is a long list of existing multi hour buff spells.
* Longstrider
* Darkvision
* Greater Magic Weapn
* Mage Armor
* Stoneskin
I agree things should be balanced but keep things in perspective, there are plenty of ways you can balance long duration buffs.
The bigger issue I see with long term buffs is it would make the class more popular to be around than to play (sort of like bards are to an extent).
Alchemist
Alchemists brew and imbibe strange elixirs to alter their physiology. Their expertise with alchemical items is unparalleled. Constant contact with toxic substances grants them resistance to poisons and venoms, and the ability to shrug off the harmful effects that would normally effect their physiologies. Eventually, all alchemists learn the secret to eternal youth.
BAB: +3/4
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Appraise, Craft, Disable Device, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Use Magic Device.
Skill Ranks per level: 4 + Int modifier.
Alchemists are proficient with all Simple Weapons and Light Armor.
LEVEL ELIXIR ABILITY
1. 1 Alchemical Formulas (apprentice level), Brew Elixir, Imbibe Single Elixir
2. 1 Alchemical Mastery, Positive Side Effects +1
3. 2 Brew Potion, Poison Resistance 1
4. 2 Alchemical Focus
5. 2 Positive Side Effects +2
6. 3 Alchemical Formulas (initiate level), Poison Resistance 2
7. 3 Imbibe Two Elixirs
8. 3 Enlarge Alchemy
9. 4 Brew Potent Potion (4th), Poison Resistance 3
10. 4 Positive Side Effects +3
11. 4 Brew Potent Potion (5th), Improved Alchemical Mastery
12. 5 Alchemical Formulas (journeyman level), Widen Alchemy, Poison Resistance 4
13. 5 Brew Potent Potion (6th), Imbibe Three Elixirs
14. 5 Hearty Constitution
15. 6 Brew Potent Potion (7th), Positive Side Effexts +4, Poison Resistance 5
16. 6 Maximize Alchemy
17. 6 Brew Potent Potion (8th), Timeless Body
18. 7 Alchemical Formulas (master level), Poison Resistance 6
19. 7 Brew Potent Potion (9th), Imbibe Four Elixirs
20. 7 Greater Alchemical Mastery, Positive Side Effects +5
Alchemical Formulas (Sp). Alchemists learn to manipulate the alchemical elements as a spell-like ability. They learn 2 alchemical formulas at 1st level, and 1 additional formula each level beyond 1st. Apprentice level alchemical formulas can only manipulate one element or humor. Initiate level alchemical formulas can manipulate or combine 2 elements or humors. Journeyman level alchemical formulas can manipulate 3 elements or humors. Master level alchemical formulas can manipulate or combine all 4 elements or humors. Alchemical Formulas will be skill-based spell-like effects, using Craft alchemy as the relevant skill. Additional uses of the same alchemical formula in the same day will increase the skill DC by 2. There are 7 levels of alchemical formlas, based on the alchemical metals and planets: Saturn/lead, Jupiter/tin, Mars/iron, Venus/copper, Mercury/quicksilver, Moon/silver, Sun/gold. The elements and associated humors are Blood & Air, Yellow Bile & Fire, Black Bile & Earth, and Phlegm & Water.
Brew Elixir (Ex). Alchemists can brew elixirs. Elixirs are quasi-magical infusions that can alter the physiology of the Alchemist. There are 8 levels of Elixir that the Alchemist can brew. Each type of elixir has its own cost and Fortitude Save DC. The effects of an elixir persist for 24 hours.
Imbibe Elixir (Ex). At 1st level, Alchemists can imbibe 1st level elixirs. When they do so, they must make a successful Fortitude save or suffer the negative side effect of the elixir. As alchemists grow more powerful, they can imbibe higher level elixirs. An alchemist that imbibes an elixir that exceeds the level they can safely consume risks death, as does a non-alchemist that consumes any kind of elixir. At 7th level, an alchemist can benefit from consuming 2 elixirs at once; at 13th he can benefit from 3; and at 19th he can benefit from 4.
Alchemical Mastery (Ex). Beginning at 2nd level, when an Alchemist uses an alchemical item that causes damage, he adds 1/2 his class level to the damage caused by the alchemical item.
Positive Side Effects (Ex). Beginning at 2nd level, when an Alchemist imbibes an elixir and makes a successful Fortitude save, he gains the benefits of a Positive Side Effect. He gains an alchemical bonus of +1 to one of the following: Attack Rolls, Weapon Damage Rolls, Saving Throws, DR 1/-, +5 hit points, +1 AC, or acid, cold, electrical, fire, or sonic resistance 5. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, this bonus increases, and the alchemist can mix and match the various benefits each time he imbibes an elixir.
Brew Potion. At 3rd level, the alchemist gains brew potion as a bonus feat. He can make a Craft alchemy check with a DC of 15 + the spell level to create a potion that duplicates as an arcane spell or 25 + the spell level to create a potion that duplicates a divine spell.
Poison Resistance (Ex). At 3rd level, the alchemist is less affected by poisons than regular folk. He reduces the amount of ability damage he suffers from poison by 1. At 6th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, he increases the amount of ability damage that he can shrug off.
Alchemical Focus (Ex). At 4th level, the alchemist adds half his class level to the Save DC, if any, of any alchemical item he uses.
Mettle (Ex). At 6th level, whenever the alchemist makes a successful Fortitude or Will save against an effect that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save, he instead completely negates the effect.
Enlarge Alchemy (Ex). At 8th level, the alchemist doubles the range of any alchemical item he uses.
Brew Potent Potion (Ex). At 9th level, the alchemist learns how to brew potions of spells higher than the normal maximum of 3rd level spells. At 9th level, he can brew potions that are based on 4th level spells (or lower level spells altered by metamagic feats to be equivalent to 4th level spells). At 11th level, and every 2 levels beyond 11th, the maximum spell level increases by 1.
Improved Alchemical Mastery (Ex). Beginning at 11th level, when an Alchemist uses an alchemical item that causes damage, he adds his class level to the damage caused by the alchemical item. This ability supercedes Alchemical Mastery.
Widen Alchemy (Ex). At 12th level, the alchemist doubles the area of effect of any alchemical item he uses.
Hearty Constitution (Ex). At 14th level, whenever the alchemist fails a Fortitude save, the following round he gets to make a single second Fortitude save to resist and negate the effects of the initial failed Fortitude save.
Maximize Alchemy (Ex). At 16th level, instead of rolling for damage when using an alchemical item, the alchemist causes maximum damage when using any alchemical item.
Timeless Body (Ex). At 17th level, the alchemist learns to create a special concoction that arrests his physical age. He ceases to gain ability penalties for aging, but he still gains ability increases for aging. In addition, his natural lifespan doubles.
Greater Alchemical Mastery (Ex). At 20th level, the alchemist adds double his class level to the damage he causes with alchemical items. This replaces and supercedes Improved Alchemical Mastery.
Sample Elixirs
1. Snapping Turtle Soup.
Craft alchemy DC 15.
Fortitude DC 15.
Benefit: You grow a heavy shell and flipper-like appendages. You gain an armor bonus equal to your Constitution bonus + 1/2 your alchemist level. You gain a swim speed equal to your land speed and a +8 alchemical bonus to Swim skill checks. You gain a +8 alchemical bonus on Constitution checks to hold your breath. Once every 5 rounds, you can make a sonic snap attack with a range of 30 feet. The target must make a Fortitude save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your alchemist level + your Charisma modifier or take 1d6 + your alchemist level points of sonic damage and be stunned for 1 round
Negative Side Effect: Your speed is reduced to half your normal speed for the duration of the elixir.
2. Eye of Newt
Craft alchemy DC 19.
Fortitude DC 20.
Benefit: Your eyes become large and bulbous. You can see in normal and magical darkness and gain the benefits of a See Invisiblity spell. A number of times per day equal to you Constitution bonus you can use Clairvoyance.
Negative Side Effect: You take a -4 alchemical penalty to all Intelligence based skill checks for the duration of the elixir.
3. Wing of Bat
Craft alchemy DC 23.
Fortitude DC 22.
Benefit: Your ears grow and look like batwings. You gain blindsense with a range equal to 10 feet multiplied by your Consitution bonus and you gain the benefits of the Blindfighting feat. You can use Swift Fly once every 5 rounds. Once every 5 rounds, you can use Scare with a save DC of 10 + 1/2 your alchemist level + your Charisma modifier.
Negative Side Effect: You are blinded for the duration of the elixir.
4. Sewer Gas
Craft alchemy DC 25.
Fortitude DC 25.
Benefit: You become insubstantial, as if the subject of a Gaseous Form spell, but your Fly speed is equal to your normal land speed. You gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to your Charisma bonus. By entering an opponent's space, you can make touch attack that simulates the Ghouls Touch spell with a DC of 10 + 1/2 you alchemist level + your Charisma modifier. Once every 5 rounds, you may create a Stinking Cloud effect with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your alchemist level + you Charisma modifier.
Negative Side Effect: You take double damage from area effects.
5. Invisible Man
Craft alchemy DC 27.
Fortitude DC 26.
Benefit: You gain the benefits of Greater Invisiblity, which you cannot dispel for the duration of the elixir. You gain the ability to use Sudden Strike for +3d6, +1d6 for every 3 levels of alchemist you gain above 11th level (4d6 at 14th, 5d6 at 17th, and 6d6 at 20th). At will, you can use Sanctuary on yourself, with a Save DC of 10 + 1/2 your alchemist level + your Charisma modifier.
Negative Side Effect: Your gear does not gain the benefits of Greater Invisiblity. Also, you become partially insubstantial, causing all attacks on you to automatically be critical hits.
6. Your Dark Side
Craft alchemy DC 30.
Fortitude DC 28.
Benefit: You gain the benefits of Righteous Might. You gain the Improved Unarmed Strike ability and damage of a monk equal to your alchemist level, adjusted for your increased size. Your alignment shifts to evil along its morality axis.
Negative Side Effect: You suffer a -8 alchemical penalty to Intelligence and Wisdom, and your alignment shifts to Chaotic Evil.
7. Spring-heeled Jack
Craft alchemy DC 32
Fortitude DC 29.
Benefit: You gain a +30 alchemical bonus to Acrobatics checks to Jump and you benefit from the effects of a Haste spell. Once every 5 rounds, you can exhale a line of fire 10 feet long per alchemist level that causes 1d6 points of damage per alchemist level that you have, with a Reflex save of 10 + 1/2 you alchemist level + your Constitution modifier for half damage. As a move action, you can teleport 5 feet per alchemist level.
Negative Side Effect: You lose your ability to speak, read, or write.
7. Colossus
Craft alchemy DC 40
Fortitude DC 30
Benefit: Your body becomes covered in adamantine, granting you a natural armor bonus equal to your alchemist level. You gain DR 10/adamantine and SR 10 + your alchemist level. You gain a +8 alchemist bonus to your Strength and Constitution scores. You gain the Improved Unarmed Strike of a monk equal to your alchemist level and your unarmed strikes overcome DR as if they were adamantine. You gain the benefits of the Greater Sunder and Improved Sunder feats even if you don't meet the requirements. You are vulnerable to Rusting Grasp and similar effects.
Negative Side Effect: Your speed is reduced to 5 feet, you take a -8 alchemical penalty to Dexterity, and you suffer double damage from Rusting Grasp and similar effects.
New Feats.
Purge Elixir
Requirements: 3 ranks in Craft Alchemy
Benefit: Once per day as a full round action, you may purge a single elixir from your system.
Consume Elixir
Requirements: 1 rank in Craft Alchemy or base Fortitude bonus of +2
Benefit: Choose a single 1st level elixir. You gain the ability to imbibe that elixir as if you were an Alchemist with a class level equal to 1/2 your character level (minimum 1).
Although I'm not really into the alchemist as a concept, I figured I'd join in by adding some info.
From the sound of it the alchemist seems to have a similar spell-casting ability to arcane spell-casters but slightly different mechanically. Note on the product page for the advanced players guide alchemist are listed as arcane casters
"The Alchemist: An arcane mystic who brews salves and unguents to modify his body in freakishly effective ways"
And in the initial blurb in Paizo's blog this is written.
"This class will work like an arcane caster, in that he will prepare his alchemy for the day and use them as day goes on"
Finally in his recent interview on Sementicast, Jason makes the fallowing key comments about the alchemist. All of the list bellow is paraphrasing to a degree not direct quotes.
• He works a little differently then other classes.
• He uses something called infusions in the morning, as part of his daily prep.
• He has a daily prep like other spell-caster.
• Some of his abilities are basically like spells from the wizards spell list, but many are new/unique.
So were going to get a lot of spell-casters in the advanced players guide. Although the Inquisitor and the summoner are both described as limited in their spell-casting ability (From Paizo's blog). It's a little weird that cavalier is the only non spell-caster class.