Just as a thought to the Paizo guys - why is Solid Fog still a 4th level spell? It's almost completely worthless now. No longer meaningfully slows opponents and means you can't attack them at a range as they try to get through.
Why is it still level 4?
Just as a thought to the Paizo guys - why is Solid Fog still a 4th level spell? It's almost completely worthless now. No longer meaningfully slows opponents and means you can't attack them at a range as they try to get through.
Why is it still level 4?
To save other people looking it up, the change the OP is referring to is the fact that in 3.5, creatures had their speed reduced to 5' within the Fog. In Pathfinder, this has been changed to half-speed.
It's hard to say if this belongs at 3rd or 4th. Sleet storm (3rd level) is a close comparison. The major differences between the two are:
* Sleet Storm has twice the radius of Sleet Storm.
* Sleet Storm requires an Acrobatics check to move at all.
* Sleet Storm is Long range, Solid Fog only Medium.
* Sleet Storm extinguishes small fires and torches.
* Solid fog applies -2 to attacks and damage.
* Solid fog prevents mundane ranged attacks completely.
* Solid fog reduces falling damage.
* Solid fog lasts 10x as long, but can be dispersed by severe (31+ mph) winds.
Personally, I'd say that the penalties to attack and damage, and the negating of bows and thrown weapons altogether, make it a bit more powerful than Sleet Storm. Not a lot, but enough to put it one spell level above. I don't really see the need for the nerf though either.
Hmmm, unless I missed something, the only thing that changed was the rate of movement.
A dwarf would move at 5, now 10. Not a big change. Humans would move at 5 but now move at 15. A bigger change, but not that drastic.
I think maybe you're overstating the magnitude of the change.
Ultimately, this spell filled an area that, in 3.5, was almost as bad as a wall. Yeah, you could move through it, very slowly. It could take you 8 rounds to move all the way through it, blind the whole way which blocks all spellcasting and the fog itself blocks ordinary ranged attacks. So as a 4th level spell, this had the ability in the best case scenario to remove several combatants from the fight for longer than most fights last - effectively turning a single encounter into two separate encounters (both of which would be trivial since they would have to face the PCs at roughly half their expected strength.
That's a one-shot "easy-win" button.
Now it still slows them down, but only for 3 rounds instead of 8. All the rest of the benefits still apply, like shutting down spellcasting and ranged attacks. it still allows you to divide-and-conquer an encounter, but not as perfectly as before.
More importantly, it takes the targets' speed into consideration, which seems a little more fair. I imagine a high level monk moving at 90' per move might feel a little cheated when he loses 85' of movement entering a solid fog while an encumbered gnome only loses 5' of movement.
At least now, it's 45' vs. 5', a litte more equitable, especially since that monk can now move through the entire solid fog in one round anyway.
Now it still slows them down, but only for 3 rounds instead of 8.Actually, it slows them down for one turn, two turns tops, unless they are a halfling in plate armor, since they simply double move in any direction and are either free or at the edge of the cloud.
Ahh, good catch, I was thinking in terms of how many moves they must make, but I didn't type it that way.
Just to further complicate matters: reducing everyone to 5' move speed breaks the system unnecessarily. Reducing everyone to 5' per round as a full-round action is far friendlier to existing mechanics.
Also: worth a 4th-level slot. :P
I made a topic about this a while earlier.
Just gonna use Freezing fog from SpC then. Unconverted of course ;-)
Don't think it needs converting at all since at 6th level a 5' per round no-save movement restriction is still a good effect.
At 5th level we have transmute mud to rock for that tho.
I agree the 5' per round was a broken mechanic.
However, the current mechanic isn't worth a 4th level slot IMO. I can't think of how Solid Fog is going to be more powerful than Sleet Storm mechanically at this point, in fact, I think the effects of Sleet Storm will be superior, even if they were the same level.
No big deal, I just won't take Solid Fog - but unfortunate.
P.S. Funkytrip: Freezing fog uses the mechanics of Solid Fog - so it's going to be similarly nerfed.
Now it still slows them down, but only for 3 rounds instead of 8.Actually, it slows them down for one turn, two turns tops, unless they are a halfling in plate armor, since they simply double move in any direction and are either free or at the edge of the cloud.
Considering that there's a considered-by-noone-to-be-overpowered third-level spell that does almost exactly the same thing only more effectively, why do we have this spell at fourth level?
Exactly. If it limited them to 15ft. of movement it would still be decent, but it doesn't, it simply halves it, which doesn't meaningfully slow down large creature or those willing to double move/run.
There is no reason to ever cast solid fog now. It isn't effective battlefield control or effective cover to withdraw. It's a waste of a slot. While the 5ft. of movement might have been too strong, at present it's abysmally weak.
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Although its effects do stack with sleet storm since it functions differently mechanically so you could sleet storm and then solid fog. that would definitely put a damper on things: 1/4 speed and an acrobatics check to move. Combining them makes it make sense why its a higher level slot because balance wise doing both at the same time would be problematic for just about anyone... although less so now that fighters are actually good with such a low acrobatics check at that level. And that also prevents the acrobatics from being easy, you would not wanna try to run either, the increase to the tumble would start to become troublesome to non-agility based/non-skilled characters
The previous 5' move was entirely too good and way to effective.
It's kind of a bummer that it is pretty underpowered now but I think a single underpowered spell is less damaging to the game than a single seriously overpowered one. So overall it's a win but... it would be nice to have that spell that was 'just right'.
Combining them makes it make sense why its a higher level slot because balance wise doing both at the same time would be problematic for just about anyone...
Why isn't Sleet Storm higher level then if the issue is combining? Combining with one specific spell isn't really a good reason to make a crappy spell HIGHER Level than one that' s generally MORE useful (Sleet Storm).
If it limited them to 15ft. of movement it would still be decent, but it doesn't, it simply halves it, which doesn't meaningfully slow down large creature or those willing to double move/run.
There is no reason to ever cast solid fog now. It isn't effective battlefield control or effective cover to withdraw. It's a waste of a slot. While the 5ft. of movement might have been too strong, at present it's abysmally weak.
Well, it IS effective cover to withdraw, but so is Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud. :-)
I might like running it as you can move half your normal Movement as a FULL ROUND action,
or move 5' as a Move Action (no 5' Step). THAT would be worthwhile.
I added it right before the Core book came out and was most unhappy to discover the change when looking over solid fog again. It was a linchpin in my air raid on a certain T-rex in some tar pits and now... it's worthless. My entire plan is shot to hell.
Maybe talk to your GM about swapping it out. Seems to me a reasonable request while everyone is still fairly new at the rules changes.
Creative Director
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The 3.5 version of solid fog was absolutely too good. We probably DID go too far nerfing it, but as it stood, solid fog was just too powerful. Particularly when stacked on top of other effects, like blade barriers or lava or other deadly area effect stuff. PARTICULARLY when a creature that was bigger than Medium got caught inside.
Hmmm, unless I missed something, the only thing that changed was the rate of movement.
A dwarf would move at 5, now 10. Not a big change. Humans would move at 5 but now move at 15. A bigger change, but not that drastic.
I think maybe you're overstating the magnitude of the change.
Ultimately, this spell filled an area that, in 3.5, was almost as bad as a wall. Yeah, you could move through it, very slowly. It could take you 8 rounds to move all the way through it, blind the whole way which blocks all spellcasting and the fog itself blocks ordinary ranged attacks. So as a 4th level spell, this had the ability in the best case scenario to remove several combatants from the fight for longer than most fights last - effectively turning a single encounter into two separate encounters (both of which would be trivial since they would have to face the PCs at roughly half their expected strength.
That's a one-shot "easy-win" button.
Now it still slows them down, but only for 3 rounds instead of 8. All the rest of the benefits still apply, like shutting down spellcasting and ranged attacks. it still allows you to divide-and-conquer an encounter, but not as perfectly as before.
More importantly, it takes the targets' speed into consideration, which seems a little more fair. I imagine a high level monk moving at 90' per move might feel a little cheated when he loses 85' of movement entering a solid fog while an encumbered gnome only loses 5' of movement.
At least now, it's 45' vs. 5', a litte more equitable, especially since that monk can now move through the entire solid fog in one round anyway.
It's a pretty worthless 4th level slot when it does the same thing as black tentacles but doesn't have a chance to kill them. Black tentacles makes the area hindering terrain and halves movement. Not to mention a monk could run through the entire fog cloud with no problem. Now you could rule that creatures in the cloud are blind and can only move at half speed and then it is useful. Or comboing it with waves/ray of exhaustion.
Now you could rule that creatures in the cloud are blind and can only move at half speed and then it is useful.Well, you're in luck! Sleet Storm does do that.
I know :) and it's only a 3rd level slot. My adventuring party won't let me cast that anymore after.. an incident.
I know :) and it's only a 3rd level slot. My adventuring party won't let me cast that anymore after.. an incident.Now you could rule that creatures in the cloud are blind and can only move at half speed and then it is useful.Well, you're in luck! Sleet Storm does do that.
Oooohhhh...tell us a story *rubs hands together*
I'm sure a lot of us have "spells gone wrong" stories to share. Certainly, anyone who played 1st or 2nd ed has a couple stories of fireball feedback or lightning rebounds.
Boots of the Winterlands will negate the movement penalties on Sleet Storm. I don't know of any item that will negate the penalties with solid fog.
I'm sure a lot of us have "spells gone wrong" stories to share. Certainly, anyone who played 1st or 2nd ed has a couple stories of fireball feedback or lightning rebounds.
Our GM still plays with lightning bolt rebounds, my rogue nearly killed 3 party members with a wand of wonder and UMD. They were really irritated that he took no damage due to his evasion.
Boots of the Winterlands will negate the movement penalties on Sleet Storm. I don't know of any item that will negate the penalties with solid fog.
Ring of free movement should.
It seems like the spell would have worked better if it entangled everyone in the fog. That prevents charging/running.
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I really do hate the new nerfs to Solid Fog. Especially the requirement that all arcane spell casters have to take it as soon as they're able to and not only that carry expensive scrolls of it! Shameful! ;)
Seriously though, Solid Fog was one of the most broken spells in the game. It got seriously toned down when it entered the realms of the Pathfinder RPG and that's not so horrific. It still does something. If you don't think it's worth a 4th level spell slot, then talk to your DM and see what they think.
There has to be a worst 4th level spell no matter what you think about it. Something there is a worse choice then most of the other spells to you and might not be to others. There are better spells too.
For what it's worth you can all blame Jason Nelson for the nerf to solid fog. There was a good bit of discussion about his strategic use of it in some of the Paizo games during the early stages of the beta. Solid fog plus blade barrier was the clincher I believe.
Y'know, if sleet storm had been nerfed to remove the half-movement penalty (or even to allow full movement at DC 20) this whole discussion would be different.
Y'know, if sleet storm had been nerfed to remove the half-movement penalty (or even to allow full movement at DC 20) this whole discussion would be different.Then we'd be having the same discussion, with Sleet Storm and Fog Cloud.
Haha... entirely true. Sleet storm is a decent spell and pretty solid for it's level, solid fog is now a bit of an aberration.
Y'know, if sleet storm had been nerfed to remove the half-movement penalty (or even to allow full movement at DC 20) this whole discussion would be different.Then we'd be having the same discussion, with Sleet Storm and Fog Cloud.
Those have a lot more differences. I didn't say remove the Acrobatics check entirely. :P
Edit: I do have to say, my favorite solution so far was to just change solid fog's movement penalty to "entangled."
That doesn't solve the problem at all. Solid Fog's penalties right now are essentially identical to the entangled penalties.
Not quite. You can run through it. Not being able to do that makes a sizable difference.
...oh, wait. I missed that solid fog's radius is only 20 feet, not 40 like sleet storm.
Yeah, never mind. :P
Sleet storm is soon useless due to flying opponents or opponents like dragons that have esp.Solid Fog isn't terribly useful against those opponents either, as it only forces one move action from anyone who can move 40' in a round while flying. Which is basically everything that can fly.
And what does Blindsense/Blindsight have to do with Sleet Storm? Both abilities see through both Sleet Storm and Solid Fog just fine.
Dang it. You beat me to it MIB.
Sleet storm is soon useless due to flying opponents or opponents like dragons that have esp.Solid Fog isn't terribly useful against those opponents either, as it only forces one move action from anyone who can move 40' in a round while flying. Which is basically everything that can fly.
And what does Blindsense/Blindsight have to do with Sleet Storm? Both abilities see through both Sleet Storm and Solid Fog just fine. The only time it would matter is if you're trying to stop someone with ranged attacks from attacking you, in which case Solid Fog is better than Sleet Storm, but you'd have to have some really long-ranged Blindsense or Blindsight for that to work; few creatures have more than 30' or 60' or so.
I've been thinking about this, It may be better now as a hiding spell than a control spell. A dragondisciple or other character with blindsight/blindsense could use the fog to thwart enemies and use AOO's to pick them off. Improved invis probably is better, but not for enemies that see invis. Also if you're whole team coordinated and took blind fighting it would be a nice mass blur type effect for your fighters and protect them from enemy archers/snipers.
I've been thinking about this, It may be better now as a hiding spell than a control spell. A dragondisciple or other character with blindsight/blindsense could use the fog to thwart enemies and use AOO's to pick them off. Improved invis probably is better, but not for enemies that see invis. Also if you're whole team coordinated and took blind fighting it would be a nice mass blur type effect for your fighters and protect them from enemy archers/snipers.But you can do all that with Sleet Storm. :|
I realize that. I like sleet storm :) I'm trying to figure out what solid fog is useful for, since it's not useful the way it used to be. I'd still probably go with tentacles at that level.
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The 3.5 version of solid fog was absolutely too good. We probably DID go too far nerfing it, but as it stood, solid fog was just too powerful. Particularly when stacked on top of other effects, like blade barriers or lava or other deadly area effect stuff. PARTICULARLY when a creature that was bigger than Medium got caught inside.
The current version of solid fog sounds like the perfect spell for a fireball mage to cast around himself before beginning his artillery salvo... (no ranged touch required for fireball or other area spell; all you need is to see your target, and according to this thread solid fog does not limit vision right? (i.e. you still have line of sight if you're an artillery mage within the fog right?)
Yes, it's an overnerf. I could see it being 3rd level safely, but it's just too weak for 4th level.
Here's an idea. On your turn, make a reflex save. If you pass, you move at just half speed. If you fail, you're staggered by the billowing plumes of fluffy fog (and you move at half speed). You repeat the save every round.
Too strong? Too many saves?
all you need is to see your target, and according to this thread solid fog does not limit vision right? (i.e. you still have line of sight if you're an artillery mage within the fog right?)
No line of sight in fog effects beyond 5 feet |:
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all you need is to see your target, and according to this thread solid fog does not limit vision right? (i.e. you still have line of sight if you're an artillery mage within the fog right?)No line of sight in fog effects beyond 5 feet |:
ok cool... at home now and have read the spell... it's still a good spell I think as it is effectively the ultimate protection against arrows (no DR 10/magic.. just COMPLETELY protected against arrows... not bad)
Maybe it should be 10ft. max move instead of 5ft. This allows faster exits but doesn't turn it into a spell that no one will ever take anymore.
It's tricky one, it did need attention but as Jason said maybe in reflection it got a little too much.
It falls into the House-rule area for me.