All,
I'm trying to see if I can accurately do the Goliath Spider stats. This means (I assume) an advancement of the Giant Spider using the monster advancement rules. I'm just **trying to focus on hp** for now, then get to the other stats.
This involves the following changes:
CR 1 to CR 11
Medium Size to Colossal Size
3 HD to 14 HD (d8s)
From the CR increase, I'm using the Monster Advancement table.
According to the text under the heading Step 2: Add Hit Dice, I'm going to assume I add the values in the table, then add the average hp for the added hit dice, then I'm adding the Con bonuses for size increases.
I'm adding a total of 11 HD. Since I'm going from CR 1 to 11, I'm going to add a total of CR 2 through CR 11, giving 5+10+10+15+15+15+15+15+15+15 or 130 hp.
Each size increase is cumulative, so the giant spider will gain +16 Con for a total of 28 Con, which would be 9 (new Con modifier) x 14 (total hit dice) or 126 hp. Since the spider had 3 HD with a 12 Con before, we can subtract 3 from the previous number and add a total of 123.
Adding 11 d8 HD, that would be 4.5 * 11 = 49.5, which since the base number of HD on the giant spider is odd (3), I'm rounding up to 50.
Thus the monster's hp is 13 (old HD) + 3 (old Con) + 50 (new HD) + 123 (new Con) + 130 (value from table) = 319 hp. This is a large increase from the colossal monstrous spider in 3.5 (208), even though the creature's hit dice is significantly less (32 to 14). Does this mean that I shouldn't add the table's values, or does it mean in PF the goliath spider is has around 50% more hp than the colossal monstrous spider in 3.5?
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All,
I'm trying to see if I can accurately do the Goliath Spider stats. This means (I assume) an advancement of the Giant Spider using the monster advancement rules. I'm just **trying to focus on hp** for now, then get to the other stats.
This involves the following changes:
CR 1 to CR 11
Medium Size to Colossal Size
3 HD to 14 HD (d8s)From the CR increase, I'm using the Monster Advancement table.
According to the text under the heading Step 2: Add Hit Dice, I'm going to assume I add the values in the table, then add the average hp for the added hit dice, then I'm adding the Con bonuses for size increases.
I'm adding a total of 11 HD. Since I'm going from CR 1 to 11, I'm going to add a total of CR 2 through CR 11, giving 5+10+10+15+15+15+15+15+15+15 or 130 hp.
Each size increase is cumulative, so the giant spider will gain +16 Con for a total of 28 Con, which would be 9 (new Con modifier) x 14 (total hit dice) or 126 hp. Since the spider had 3 HD with a 12 Con before, we can subtract 3 from the previous number and add a total of 123.
Adding 11 d8 HD, that would be 4.5 * 11 = 49.5, which since the base number of HD on the giant spider is odd (3), I'm rounding up to 50.
Thus the monster's hp is 13 (old HD) + 3 (old Con) + 50 (new HD) + 123 (new Con) + 130 (value from table) = 319 hp. This is a large increase from the colossal monstrous spider in 3.5 (208), even though the creature's hit dice is significantly less (32 to 14). Does this mean that I shouldn't add the table's values, or does it mean in PF the goliath spider is has around 50% more hp than the colossal monstrous spider in 3.5?
I believe the 130 value you have is the average amount the HP should change between CRs, not an absolute addition to the monsters HP.
I believe the 130 value you have is the average amount the HP should change between CRs, not an absolute addition to the monsters HP.
Well, according to the text:
Using Table: Monster Advancement, add up all of the values in the Hit Point Change column for each increase using the Higher CR column. For example, if the base monster was CR 3 and the new monster is set to be CR 5, the total would be 25 hit points. Next, add additional Hit Dice to the monster to increase its hit points by the desired amount. Note that if the creature increases in size, its Constitution may also increase, as noted on Table: Size Changes, granting it additional hit points that might offset the need for additional Hit Dice (this also applies to any other Constitution increases).
Ahh, the hit points from the hit dice aren't actually added in the final number. The text doesn't necessarily imply that the total is added on.
So it should come out to 130 + 123 + 3 + 13 = 269 hp then?
Or perhaps I should just ignore the table all together.
13 + 3 + 123 + 50 = 189 hp. I guess that's a more reasonable number, especially considering the drop in hit dice between 3.5 and PF.
OK, using the above, I think it's probably safest to completely ignore the Monster Advancement table and focus on simply advancing the vermin hit dice and size adjustments.
Adding 11 hit dice gives:
BAB 10 (+8)
base saves (F/R/W): 9/9/4
Adding 3 to Strength (ability score increase for every 4 hit dice)
Size increases:
Add 32 Strength
Add 16 Con
Subtract 4 Dex
Add 5 natural armor
Final Stats
46 Str (11 base + 3 hd adjustments + 32 size)
13 Dex (17 base - 4 size)
28 Con (12 base + 16 size)
-- Int
10 Wis
2 Cha
AC 9 (10 + Natural Armor 6 - 8 size + 1 Dex)
That AC seems kind of low though. . . if I look at the value from the Monster Advancement table, I see a +13 AC increase in overall AC based on CR. Since the monster's base AC is 14, it should go up quite a bit.
AC 27 (10 + Natural Armor 24 - 8 size + 1 Dex)
I'm just kind of bummed that there's no fully automatic way to do this. I mean, I can balance things manually around the 3.5 monster and roughly follow guidelines, but there's no automatic (or at least fairly automatic) way to do this with a relatively simple monster |:
Alright, now for the melee attacks (bite natural weapon).
BAB 10 + 18 Strength mod - 8 size = +20 attack
Let's see if this syncs with the Monster Advancement table. The base spider (CR 1) has a +2 attack. If I add +2 for all the 1-2 ranges (which is reasonable considering this is a combat focused monster), then the total is +18, which added to base spider is +20. That works out perfectly.
That's a -6 to hit compared to the 3.5 monster. . .
Damage output:
The table Natural Attacks by Size in the universal monster rules is great. A colossal bite is 4d6. It says on that page that a primary attack with a singular natural weapon (like the spider's bite) is +1.5 Str mod in damage. In this case it would be 27.
So the Goliath Spider's damage would be 4d6 + 27. This is 12 more damage than the 3.5 version.
So -6 hit compared to +12 damage. Seems relatively fair. . .
OK everything else
Saves
base(f/r/w): 9/4/4
mod (c/d/w): +8/+1/+0
final saves: 17/5/4
variance from 3.5 (f/r/w): -3/-7/-6
Yeah, going from 32 hit dice to 14 is going to hurt your saves. Reflex save got hammered, so apparently vermin are fireball bait now (:
CMB = +36 (10 BAB + 18 Str mod + 8 size)
CMD = 47 (10 base + 10 BAB + 18 Str mod + 1 Dex mod + 8 size), 59 vs. trip
Skills are easy, spiders don't have skill ranks.
Skills Climb +34, Perception +4 (+8 in webs), Stealth +5 (+9 in webs); Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Stealth (+8 in webs), +16 Climb
Special Attack:
web (+11 ranged [10 BAB + 1 Dex], DC 26 [10 base + 7 HD + 9 Con], hp 14)
Note: The base Giant Spider's web should have 3 hp, not 2. It's based on the creature's hit dice, and the base spider has 3 hit dice, not 2.
Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 28; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d8 Strength damage; cure 1 save.
Note: Spiders have a +2 racial bonus to poison DCs.
I adjusted the poison to scale in the same way 3.5 scaled their poison with size. This could potentially be 4d8 (average 18) of strength damage, which is more than 3.5 (2d8 more total), but it gives saves for each d8 and time to react, so I think this is a fair number.
Edit: Vermin don't have a good reflex save. . .
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I always have fun with these. I think this should be accurate.
Giant Goliath Spider CR 11
XP 12,800
N Colossal vermin
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +4
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 3, flat-footed 17 (+1 Dex, +15 natural armor, -8 size)
hp 189 (14d8+126)
Fort +18, Ref +5, Will +4
Immune mind-affecting effects
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +20 (4d6+27 plus poison)
Special Attack web (+3 ranged, DC 26, 14 hp)
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Statistics
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Str 46, Dex 13, Con 28, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +10; CMB +36; CMD 47 (59 vs. trip)
Skills Climb +34, Perception +4 (+8 in webs), Stealth -11 (-7 in webs); Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Stealth (+8 in webs), +16 Climb
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Ecology
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Environment any
Organization solitary, pair, or colony (3–8)
Treasure incidental
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Special Abilities
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Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 28; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Strength damage; cure 1 save.
Goliath Spider CR 11
XP 12,800
N Colossal vermin
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +4
Defense
AC 18, touch 3, flat-footed 17 (+15 natural armor, +1 Dex, -8 size)
hp 189 (14d8+126)
Fort +18, Ref +5, Will +4
Immune mind-affecting effects
Offense
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +20 (4d6+27 plus poison)
Special Attack web (+3 ranged, DC 26, hp 14)
Statistics
Str 46, Dex 13, Con 28, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +10; CMB +36; CMD 47 (59 vs. trip)
Skills Climb +34, Perception +4 (+8 in webs), Stealth -11 (-7 in webs); Racial Modifiers +4 Perception, +4 Stealth (+8 in webs), +16 Climb
Ecology
Environment any
Organization solitary, pair, or colony (3–8)
Treasure incidental
Special Abilities
Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 28; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d8 Strength damage; cure 1 save.
The statistics above are for a web-spinning spider. Hunting spiders lose the web ability but gain a +8 racial modifier on Acrobatics checks. All giant spiders have a +2 racial bonus on poison save DCs.
Does this look right?
Edit: Vermin have only good fort saves. . .
Edit: Fort save was off by 1. . .
Edit: Added size penalty to web, fixed stealth modifier. . .
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Stat blockThe work is close to mine, though I think I spotted a few errors.
- Web +11 should be Web +3, the -8 size penalty applies.
- The natural armor bonus should be +15. Remember, the bonuses on the advancement table are cumulative, so you get +14 from that on top of the +1 the medium spider has to begin with (it says armor in the PRD but I am certain that's an error and they mean natural armor, like you assumed as well).
- The HP is right, based off a con mod of +9, but your fort save appears to use a con mod of +8. Should be 1 higher.
- Stealth has a massive penalty to it because this guy is Colossal, a -16.
- I'm not entirely sure the Strength damage for the poison goes up with size/CR, though it does make sense. I just didn't spot it in the advancement stuff.
Otherwise, looks good! :D
I assume the table in the monster advancement section refers to net AC change, not just natural armor. I did assume natural armor, but I read the table as increasing the base monster's AC by +13 (the AC change between higher CR 2 and CR 11, as the example does with hit points). Since size makes the monster much easier to hit, it would make sense that a significantly larger creature would have fairly thick skin (in this case chitin/proteins).
Either way you read it, the AC up or down by 4 compared to the 3.5 reading (AC 22). I'd say since the creature's saves are significantly worse compared to the 3.5 version, a higher AC should be called for. But I'll make the adjustment anyway. . .
I wasn't planning on being stealthy with a colossal spider, but good catch (: Same with the web.
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I think the Monster Advancement Table is more a set of guidelines than hard rules, as it mentions later on that the values are not absolute, there will be plenty of variances. That said, an AC 18 for a Colossal creature makes perfect sense, creatures with humongous sizes do not often have the AC that the Monster Advancement Table would indicate for their CR.
But yeah, overall good job. :) Now that you have your humongous spider, go sic it on some PCs!