Setting Encounter Levels for PCs without gear.

[Lawmonger]

This has probably come up somewhere before but I couldn't find any likely looking threads.

My PC's have been arrested and captured and I want to give them an encounter or two without any gear to fall back on. No spell component pouches, no holy symbols, no magical gear.
They are being thrown into the arena with basic half plate and non-masterwork weapons.

The party consists of
tiefling monk2/swashbuckler3/ Fighter1/rogue7
Human fighter8/Cleric1/wormhunter 5
Human Cleric8/Mighty Contender of Kord7

normally they weigh in as a 14th level party. To give them a EL15 encounter I simply throw a CR 15 monster at them.

but without magical gear they obviously weigh in lighter. how much lighter?

how much lower should the CR of the monsters they face be in order to give them a balanced EL 15 encounter?

[Molech]

The problem I see here is that the Monk is Hugely better than the other PCs in this fight (Though I don't know what the PrC for Kord can do). Whatever encounter you throw at them, make sure each PC can do something.

You'll have to design a dynamic encounter; one or two of the PCs will fight while others will be doing something else to peripherally help the fight: maybe the arena floor has levels, or something, and a PC can try to figure out how to control the levels to favor the other PCs.

Then you're coming up with a CR for a monster just for the monk and maybe one of the other PCs who can fight with no equipment. The others get an "encounter" designed more like a trap or something.

-W. E. Ray

[Rezdave]

Lawmonger wrote:

The party consists of

I'm going to refer to them as "Rogue", "Fighter" and "Cleric" based upon the highest class-level for each.

Lawmonger wrote:

normally they weigh in as a 14th level party. To give them a EL15 encounter I simply throw a CR 15 monster at them.

Then they must have extra gear, because they are short a party member to be a true 14th-level (aka ACL/APL 14) party.

Lawmonger wrote:

but without magical gear they obviously weigh in lighter. how much lighter?

I think it varies by PC. Fighter will be the most impacted, Rogue probably the least and Cleric somewhere in the middle, though the latter two depend upon their individual Ability spread, spell tactics and Skill spends.

I'd say Fighter loses the equivalent of 4x EL based upon the fact that he loses good quality gear (2x) and magical gear (2x) upon which he relies. That makes him -4 LA, or ECL 10.

Cleric relies on spells, so let's only hit him for 1.5x on gear and a full 2x on magic since he loses potions and wands and scrolls. That's a 3x loss, or about -3 LA, thus ECL 12.

Rogue does not so much need gear since he has Skills, but he really likes his magic trinkets that give him cool skill-bumps and so forth, as well as offer him better Hit and Damage. Mostly he relies upon his Dex. and monk-fighting/swashbuckling. I'd go with LA -2 for ECL 11.

Basically, the party has gone from APL 14 to APL 11, or a net loss of three levels.

However, there are additional caveats below ...

Molech wrote:

Lawmonger wrote:

They are being thrown into the arena with basic half plate and non-masterwork weapons.

The problem I see here is that the Monk is Hugely better than the other PCs in this fight

Ray/Molech is a great guy, but I have to disagree with him on this one. Rogue is clearly a light-fighter. If he is forced to wear half-plate this will kill the Dex-bonuses upon which he relies. In this case, he actually takes a bigger hit in the Equipment value, perhaps taking another -1 or -2 of LA to account for this severe hinderance to his fighting style.

Molech wrote:

You'll have to design a dynamic encounter; one or two of the PCs will fight while others will be doing something else to peripherally help the fight

It sounds to me like they are being placed in a gladiatorial arena for "judgement" and/or "execution of sentence". Picking up on Molech's suggestion of a dynamic combat, I'd consider not placing them against a single CR 10-11 creature, but rather 3-6 opponents of CR 7 or 8 each.

The Romans used to love their "matched pairs" in which two gladiators of different types were pitted one against the other with either counter-balancing or opposing strengths and weaknesses. For example, they might place a pair who each had a strong defense against the other's main offense, or they might place a pair in which each was intentionally weak against the other's main offense. These combinations would result in entirely different types of matches.

I'd suggest placing your PCs up against "matched (sets of) opponents" that will keep a crowded arena audience entertained. There should be some high SRs that the Cleric can't affect, some high ACs that the Fighter can't hit, some non-crit. that the Rogue can't flank and Sneak Attack, but each should also be vulnerable to a different character and none should combine these abilities.

It will take some work and effort on your part, but will be a fun, challenging and memorable session for your Players.

HTH,

Rez

P.S. Watch the movie Gladiator and pay attention to the first fight in which Russell Crowe was poorly armed and unarmored.

[Orthos]

Rezdave wrote:

Molech wrote:

Lawmonger wrote:

They are being thrown into the arena with basic half plate and non-masterwork weapons.

The problem I see here is that the Monk is Hugely better than the other PCs in this fight

Ray/Molech is a great guy, but I have to disagree with him on this one. Rogue is clearly a light-fighter. If he is forced to wear half-plate this will kill the Dex-bonuses upon which he relies.

I assumed the monk could just take it off.

[Lawmonger]

Wow!

thanks Rez!

I'm intending to give em a sequence of 4 fights, largely so they can keep up on Xp with the party sorcerer who will be at a dinner party elsewhere trying to persuade the city's ruler to grant the rest of the group a pardon. (i'm running prince of redhand from AoW)

the intention is to give em one straight up fight against a big heavy hitting monster (probably the last fight) and the other three fights will be a mixed batch with a challenge for each character.

P.S no the aren't being forced to wear armour! :)

[Rezdave]

Lawmonger wrote:

thanks Rez!

You're welcome.

Lawmonger wrote:

P.S no the aren't being forced to wear armour! :)

Fine. I think it would be more interesting if the armor was bolted onto them or the non-masterwork weapons were in locked gauntlets.

Again, think of the first arena in Gladiator when each Red (i.e. "Good") slave gladiator was paired with and rivet-chained to a Yellow ("Poor") one.

The goal of the fight promoter will be to make things interesting for the audience and shake up the usual tactics of the participants, not allow the Rogue to shed his armor and fight like always.

Monsters with gaze attacks might have one eye plucked, anything with flight will be clipped or chained down, &c., &c., &c.

If it were me, I'd rivet them into armor, lock them with weapons in their hands and let them adapt, then award them extra XP for their creative solutions (this also will help balance out the lesser XP they would earn for the monsters of lower CR).

Alternately, I'd bind the weapons into their hands and strap on the armor for when they came through the doors into the arena, then it's up to them if they want to put the effort into undoing and discarding it, being flat-footed and taking AoOs along the way. Maybe the Cleric and Fighter will shield the Rogue as he unbuckles his half-plate or the Fighter could even hold everything back while the Cleric helps the Rogue ungird faster.

Also, consider giving them weapons that are ill-suited to them. A short-sword locked into a gauntlet for the Fighter, a net for the Cleric and a Greatclub for the Rogue.

Anything you can do to shake it up means more in-world excitement for the audience, a more memorable challenge and combat for the Players and more XP for the PCs if they employ creative solutions.

FWIW,

Rez

[Molech]

The only problem with Rez is that he always seems to post right after me with better stuff. (Usually specifics about Dungeon since I don't have my mags with me when I post, just my preternatural memory).

For serious.

He was right about one thing though, I am a great guy.

(Admitedly, I didn't really look at the number of levels for the Monk/ Rogue to see there was only 2 levels of Monk.

Oops.

A dynamic encounter, though, still seems the best way to handle the situation. Put some non-combat challenges, and, yeah, lots of little monsters instead of one or two high-CR monsters.

-W. E. Ray

[Lawmonger]

Molech wrote:

Admitedly, I didn't really look at the number of levels for the Monk/ Rogue to see there was only 2 levels of Monk.

Oops.

the player has the daring outlaw and aesetic rogue feats from the complete books, and kung fu genius from dragon compendium.

he's got 5d6 sneak attack and a 2d6+7 punch. (without magical gear!)

I tend to think of him as the monk anyway... :D

Molech wrote:

I am a great guy

hey I appreciate any help I can get, I'm not gonna dispute him! :-D

[Lawmonger]

Rezdave wrote:

f it were me, I'd rivet them into armor,

harsh! now you've suggested it I'm sorely tempted! It'll impose something more of a limit on the Rogue/Monk. (even without gear - especially without armour - he has an AC of 21)

Rezdave wrote:

Also, consider giving them weapons that are ill-suited to them. A short-sword locked into a gauntlet for the Fighter, a net for the Cleric and a Greatclub for the Rogue.

the plan with the weapons was to have a motley assortment of them on a rack in the middle of the arena. Obviously the monster is between the party and the weapons, so the rogue gets a chance to shine while the others are running for the weapons.

the cleric is somewhat specialised with the greatsword, but there wont be one of those, so that will be a challenge for him, though his contender of kord PrC means that he can boost his strength up to 33 4/day for 1d4+1 rounds, and upto 40 1/day for a round which will mitigate some of those issues

the fighter has the melee weapon mastery feat from PHBII which means that any slashing weapon will do for him.

[Rezdave]

Molech wrote:

The only problem with Rez is that he always seems to post right after me with better stuff.

It's a conspiracy, actually ... I have informers watching for your every post :-)

R.