|
I'm trying to once and for all wrap my head around how Magic Item Creation works in the PRPG RAW. I understand more than one person can work on an item, and prerequisites can be met by either, but the limit on spell trigger/completion item creation, the +5 DC for not meeting a prerequisite, and the Master Craftsman feats have me lost.
The crux of my question is: Can Wally the Wizard (Scribe Scroll as a 1st level bonus feat) scribe a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, if the spell prerequisite is met by his buddy Eric the Cleric? If so, what is the Spellcraft DC to do so? 5 (base) + 1 (caster level) = 6, or 5+1+5 (not meeting the prerequisite for having the spell on his own class list)= 11? And if so, is it an arcane scroll or divine? Who can use it?
I understand the case of Eric the Cleric (level 6 with the Craft Arms and Armor feat) needing Wally the Wizard to help make a weapon with the Speed special ability, but scrolls, wands, staves and potions are giving me a hard time, as are the rules for the final Spellcraft DC. My players are thinking about everyone taking a craft feat and then being able to make [u]everything[/u]. Personally, I'm not fond of the idea of someone taking a feat to be able to make something, then having everyone else tell him how to do it.
If I can get this answered, maybe then we can figure out if Caster Levels are able to be bypassed by adding +5 to the craft DC.....
Five or six threads on this very issue already... people might be tired of going over it.
BUT I'll give it a quickly for you.
First off you must have the feat. Secondly if it is a spell completion or spell trigger you have to have the spell. Thirdly if it is a weapon you must have a caster level of 3 * the bonus to be given to the weapon. After that it's a simple skill check of 5(10?) + caster level + 5 for everything prerequisite you don't meet, and that isn't 100% required (see above). Someone else can help you and provide the prerequisite if you don't have it.
The mastercraftsman feat allows you to take the craft feat, and when you do you treat your skill rank as your caster level for creating items.
So if you have the two feats and 7 ranks in craft(armorsmithing) your caster level is 7 for the purposes of creating magical items, even though you don't actually have a caster level (since you are a fighter). IF you wanted to craft armor with fire resistance the DC will be higher for you since you can't meet the spell prerequisite.
|
The crux of my question is: Can Wally the Wizard (Scribe Scroll as a 1st level bonus feat) scribe a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, if the spell prerequisite is met by his buddy Eric the Cleric?
No
The requirement to making a magic item is
A) having the appropriate feat,
B) having the required spell in memory (or available via a magic item or another spellcaster*) of which is cast during the crafting process, and
C) making a successful spellcraft check or craft check to complete the process.
The DC of the Spellcraft is set by the player with the magic item creation feat being used.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
(read caster as creator)
Scrolls are considered spell completion so the creator must be able to cast the cure light wounds to create a scroll of cure light wounds.
Wally can help Eric create a speed weapon but doing so increases Erics spellcraft DC by +5.
Wands & staves are spell-completion items so just like scrolls wally cannot create a wand of cure light wounds but eric can.
The Master craftsman feat only allows you to select Craft Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft Wondrous Items feats and it specifically states that "You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item."
The MAXIMUM caster level is set by the caster level of the creator who is using the craft item feat. so If Eric was level 6 and he wanted to create an item that cast fireball as a command word item. he would need Wally to supply the fireball, wally is 8th level but the maximum caster level of Erics item is 6 so the fireballs will do 6d6 damage.
|
|
I got two responses and they are contradictory. This may have been discussed to death, but obviously it needs more discussion until an official ruling is given.
I have seen it argued in this forum that "Must have the spell on his class list" merely means you can't make a scroll of a spell you don't know, then copy the scroll into your spellbook (a work-around for buying new spells), not that you can't have the spell contributed by another caster. While I agree, it should read that you can't make wands or scrolls unless you know the spell yourself and you can't have someone donate the spell part of the item creation, it's not clearly worded that way.
Secondly, from reading Mr Bulmahn's thoughts in the beta playtesting forums, it would seem that he meant the +5 DC to apply even if someone else is providing a missing spell (Eric the Cleric still has a +5 DC when Wally the Wizard is providing the Haste spell for him), and that you can't just ignore ANY prerequisite in favor of a +5 DC bump.
In my old 3.5 campaign, I didn't allow any collaboration at all, but I'm trying to run PRPG as written, and this is a sticking point for our group.
As written? HA! Good luck to you good sir -- you are going to need it.
|
|
I got two responses and they are contradictory. This may have been discussed to death, but obviously it needs more discussion until an official ruling is given.
Seems both myself and abraham have the same results if I'm reading abrahams correctly, they both just explain it at different levels.
We both agree you must have the spell on your spell list to create scrolls and wands which cannot be donated by another spellcaster.
Not only that but by your second paragraph you also agree with us on this fact :)
A wizard cannot scribe a spell into his spellbook that isnt on the spell list so even if a wizard had an arcane scroll of cure light wounds he couldnt scribe it or cast it into a spell trigger or spell completion item.
Secondly, from reading Mr Bulmahn's thoughts in the beta playtesting forums, it would seem that he meant the +5 DC to apply even if someone else is providing a missing spell.
This is indeed the case however the wording as you mention isnt 100% clear
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
As I pointed out in my previous thread the word caster in this sentence should be replaced with the word creator and actually be applied to the person performing the crafting. So a wizard crafting a wondrous item that requires cure light wounds would increase the DC of the item by +5.
|
|
As I pointed out in my previous thread the word caster in this sentence should be replaced with the word creator and actually be applied to the person performing the crafting. So a wizard crafting a wondrous item that requires cure light wounds would increase the DC of the item by +5.
Like I said, there's not a question as to how I'd run it in an appropriately house-ruled game (but I don't care for tanglefoot bags or the Natural Spell feat either). I'd just like to make sure I'm reading it how it was meant.
My question here for non-spell trigger/spell completion items is this: Can you ignore a prerequiste entirely for +5 DC, or do you still have to have some source of the spell (collaborator) AND you take a +5 DC hit? So for the Cleric making a Speed weapon, can he just ignore the Haste spell requirement for +5 DC, or does he still need a source of Haste AND he takes a +5 penalty, since he personally lacks that particular prerequiste?
It's just the +5 DC hit, and he can make it without needing someone else to cast the spell for him. It says you take the hit without having the prerequisite, not that you can't make it without the prerequisite.
My over inflated opinion of myself tells me the reason you can make such items without the prerequisites (at the higher DC of course) has some relation to a post I put up during the playtest pointing out the absurdity of some magical items that required spells off of two or more spell lists that normally couldn't be gotten by a single class caster. I also pointed out the ridiculous fact that a wizard couldn't make a ring of protection in 3.5 which seemed quite stupid to me (indeed he couldn't make a ring of wizardry either!).
But that's just my ego speaking.
A wizard cannot scribe a spell into his spellbook that isnt on the spell list so even if a wizard had an arcane scroll of cure light wounds he couldnt scribe it or cast it into a spell trigger or spell completion item.
And arcane spells of Cure Light Wounds actually does exist, since Bards can make them.
But, you do make a statement that seems strange.
A wizard cannot scribe a spell into his spellbook that isnt on the spell list ..."
However, wizards are researching new spells all the time. A new arcane (sorcerer/wizard) spell would not be "on the spell list" per say. I don't think you mean to imply that the wizard could not learn this new spell.
|
|
But, you do make a statement that seems strange.
A wizard cannot scribe a spell into his spellbook that isnt on the spell list ..."
However, wizards are researching new spells all the time. A new arcane (sorcerer/wizard) spell would not be "on the spell list" per say. I don't think you mean to imply that the wizard could not learn this new spell.
Your right :) I didnt want to confuse the issue by bringing in the idea that wizards can actually create spells to add to his spell list :) especially since such spells require DMs approval.
---------------------
I see where your going with the idea that if you dont have the spell can you take the -5 and not worry about finding someone to cast it for you but that seems a little odd to even consider.
Heres a real world comparison to consider...
A chef requires flour to make a cake but needs a miller to make the flour. If he decides not to bother with the miller (and the flour) can he still make the cake? Probably not :) Also since the chef cant make the flour he has to rely on someone else to provide that component which "could" hinder his cake baking (hence the -5) if the miller provides the wrong type of flour or the wrong quantity.
Since cure light wounds is a requisite component for the creation of a magic item then that component must be present IMHO and cannot just be conveniently left out.
Heres a real world comparison to consider...A chef requires flour to make a cake but needs a miller to make the flour. If he decides not to bother with the miller (and the flour) can he still make the cake? Probably not :) Also since the chef cant make the flour he has to rely on someone else to provide that component which "could" hinder his cake baking (hence the -5) if the miller provides the wrong type of flour or the wrong quantity.
Since cure light wounds is a requisite component for the creation of a magic item then that component must be present IMHO and cannot just be conveniently left out.
Here's another real world comparison. You can substitute applesauce for butter and make the awesomeness.
It's actually not that ridiculous. Some items aren't intended to be made by player characters, they're simply only intended to be found for any of the below reasons.
1. Created by gods, cosmic powers, agents whatever using means not available to mortal mages. It's perfectly reasonable that a Staff of the Magi may be only be obtained as a gift from the Goddess of Magic as a reward for a truly epic quest.
2. Left over magic item from the days of REALLY HIGH MAGIC, that was lost to the world when the great elven kingdom fell/extinction of the primal dragons/sands walled the Great Empire of the Sands, take your pick.
Are we talking about a ring of wizardry (I) or staff of the magi?
I also pointed out the ridiculous fact that a wizard couldn't make a ring of protection in 3.5 which seemed quite stupid to me (indeed he couldn't make a ring of wizardry either!).
But that's just my ego speaking.
It's actually not that ridiculous. Some items aren't intended to be made by player characters, they're simply only intended to be found for any of the below reasons.
1. Created by gods, cosmic powers, agents whatever using means not available to mortal mages. It's perfectly reasonable that a Staff of the Magi may be only be obtained as a gift from the Goddess of Magic as a reward for a truly epic quest.
2. Left over magic item from the days of REALLY HIGH MAGIC, that was lost to the world when the great elven kingdom fell/extinction of the primal dragons/sands walled the Great Empire of the Sands, take your pick.
This is fine for the big stuff, and the peculiar stuff, but the everyday stuff that people like using all the time, not so much.
My personal take on letting characters get "magics from the time before" is to let them find unconverted items from 1st edition and Arduin and such.
But think of the plight of the poor Maester from Complete Arcane, who's there posed with an Apparatus of Kwallish/Apparatus of the Crab which requires Animate Objects which he could only get as an arcane caster if he was a high level bard under 3.5 rules. No wonder he has a sour expression.
I also pointed out the ridiculous fact that a wizard couldn't make a ring of protection in 3.5 which seemed quite stupid to me (indeed he couldn't make a ring of wizardry either!).
But that's just my ego speaking.
It's actually not that ridiculous. Some items aren't intended to be made by player characters, they're simply only intended to be found for any of the below reasons.
1. Created by gods, cosmic powers, agents whatever using means not available to mortal mages. It's perfectly reasonable that a Staff of the Magi may be only be obtained as a gift from the Goddess of Magic as a reward for a truly epic quest.
2. Left over magic item from the days of REALLY HIGH MAGIC, that was lost to the world when the great elven kingdom fell/extinction of the primal dragons/sands walled the Great Empire of the Sands, take your pick.
yeah that works great for artifacts, and really high level gear, I agree.
But a standard Ring of Protection +1?
Not so much. Or again the Ring of Wizardry, which only a cleric could make, but only a wizard (or other arcane caster) could use.
It's not that wizards these days can't make them, it was that by RAW no wizard ever could make them. Just didn't stand to reason.
Several staves were this way as well (possibly still are haven't looked), as were some other items that would be considered standard, "wizard fare".
|
|
But a standard Ring of Protection +1?
Not so much. Or again the Ring of Wizardry, which only a cleric could make, but only a wizard (or other arcane caster) could use.
It's not that wizards these days can't make them, it was that by RAW no wizard ever could make them. Just didn't stand to reason.
Several staves were this way as well (possibly still are haven't looked), as were some other items that would be considered standard, "wizard fare".
I didnt check these before but just looked them up...
Ring of protection requires shield of faith which I understand and dont see why it has to be wizard craftable.
The Ring of wizardry however requires limited wish (in both 3.5 and PF) which is a 7th lvl spell for wiz/sor so they can make them and clerics cannot.
Staves have stored spells so none of them break these rules either since the are restricted as spell-trigger items.
Maybe im missing something here but its very late so I'm off to bed :)
I think there may have been confusion with the Ring of Spell Storing and the Ring of Counterspells, which are only cleric-craftable by the SRD.