|
I'm not a huge fan of the 15 minute adventuring day, but I understand that resource management is a huge part of the game. So to try and compensate for it I instituted this recharge rule. Which I use to explain why the badguys are similarly recharged, and in the case of those with class levels, willing to back off and try again later. I'd appreciate any and all feedback.
Resting and Recovery: The Resting Action takes 15 minutes.
During the Resting Action you gain the following options.
• When resting you recover 1 use of ALL abilities which are available at least three times a day. This doesn't include spells. But does include rage, bardic performance, channel energy, bloodlines, school benefits, etc. Abilities which are possessed at least 10 times a day have an additional use recovered durring rest for every 10 times a day it would be available.
• You also recover HP equal to a roll of your largest hit die, or two of them at level 10+. Alternately if you receive a heal check during the rest period, you are raised to a minimum of ½ of the check, and then regain 1 HP per HD.
• Spells can be recovered with a Spellcraft or appropriate knowledge roll for the spellcasting class. Full spellcasters (Those who receive spells at 1st level) have a DC of 5 on this roll. Every 5 beyond that increases the maximum level of spell recovered by one. Partial spellcasters (everyone else) have a DC of 10 on this roll, to recover a 1st level spell. Every 10 beyond that increases the maximum level of spell recovered by one.
I'm not a huge fan of the 15 minute adventuring day, but I understand that resource management is a huge part of the game. So to try and compensate for it I instituted this recharge rule. Which I use to explain why the badguys are similarly recharged, and in the case of those with class levels, willing to back off and try again later. I'd appreciate any and all feedback.
Resting and Recovery: The Resting Action takes 15 minutes.
During the Resting Action you gain the following options.
• When resting you recover 1 use of ALL abilities which are available at least three times a day. This doesn't include spells. But does include rage, bardic performance, channel energy, bloodlines, school benefits, etc. Abilities which are possessed at least 10 times a day have an additional use recovered durring rest for every 10 times a day it would be available.
• You also recover HP equal to a roll of your largest hit die, or two of them at level 10+. Alternately if you receive a heal check during the rest period, you are raised to a minimum of ½ of the check, and then regain 1 HP per HD.
• Spells can be recovered with a Spellcraft or appropriate knowledge roll for the spellcasting class. Full spellcasters (Those who receive spells at 1st level) have a DC of 5 on this roll. Every 5 beyond that increases the maximum level of spell recovered by one. Partial spellcasters (everyone else) have a DC of 10 on this roll, to recover a 1st level spell. Every 10 beyond that increases the maximum level of spell recovered by one.
First obvious question is how many times a day can you do this? If you rest for 45 min do you get all 3 uses of a 3/day ability back? How does this effect items that grant abilities 3/day or more? How many spells are recovered, just one?
What about abilities like rage that are now translated into rounds/day instead of uses/day? How are they recharged?
It seems that by instituting these rules you're lessening the importance of resource management. Players can use nearly every ability they have and get back uses just by taking a little breather rather than having a serious drawback for blowing it early when it wasnt needed. If I were to institute something like this, it would be at least an hour rest if not two or four. If stringed together a party shouldn't be able to completely recover in 45 minutes what would typically take them 8 hours to do.
I played in an interesting game where a recharge mechanic was used. Instead of it being just recharge though, magic was a physical tangible object.
Magic coalesced in certain locations, and in certain animals and creatures. This coalesced magic was the only way to cast spells, create magical armor, weapons, etc.
So you could basically eat the stuff and power your magic, or you could use it to make items, or sell it. It was used as currency as well. Just sleeping only returned a tiny bit every night (basically, used the spell point system, every night returned 10% of your spellpoints). The rest of the time you needed this magic tass otherwise.
It was a lot of fun.
|
|
First obvious question is how many times a day can you do this? If you rest for 45 min do you get all 3 uses of a 3/day ability back? How does this effect items that grant abilities 3/day or more? How many spells are recovered, just one?What about abilities like rage that are now translated into rounds/day instead of uses/day? How are they recharged?
Each Rest Period allows only one Spellcraft roll to recover a spell. Spells are hugely powerful.
Rage, 15 minutes recovers 1 round of rage, unless you have at least 10 rounds of rage, in which case you recover 2, etc. The same goes for Ki and Bardic Performance.
It seems that by instituting these rules you're lessening the importance of resource management. Players can use nearly every ability they have and get back uses just by taking a little breather rather than having a serious drawback for blowing it early when it wasnt needed. If I were to institute something like this, it would be at least an hour rest if not two or four. If stringed together a party shouldn't be able to completely recover in 45 minutes what would typically take them 8 hours to do.
15 Minutes is hardly a Little Breather, in my present campaign the party has taken three such breathers in the present locale (The Ironbriar Estate). The villains have in that same time used Unseen Servants to reset several traps, prepared a set of zombies to flank the Party in the final fight, and heal themselves and their minions up fully from a previous encounter.
I expect it'll be a matter of the PCs learning to balance hot pursuit, and nto letting the baddies recharge up, with we can't survive another fight or clever trap.
In a true Dungeon environment I see it as being even less of an issue, as the PCs would just stop and recharge only it would cost them an in game day.
neat mechanic and examplesI considered something like that but it's a bit of a stretch for Golarion, and I'm trying to stick to Setting and Core Material for the first adventure in PFRPG rules.
Thanks, not my mechanics, but I may steal them sometime.
15 Minutes is hardly a Little Breather, in my present campaign the party has taken three such breathers in the present locale (The Ironbriar Estate). The villains have in that same time used Unseen Servants to reset several traps, prepared a set of zombies to flank the Party in the final fight, and heal themselves and their minions up fully from a previous encounter.
I expect it'll be a matter of the PCs learning to balance hot pursuit, and nto letting the baddies recharge up, with we can't survive another fight or clever trap.
In a true Dungeon environment I see it as being even less of an issue, as the PCs would just stop and recharge only it would cost them an in game day.
I'm no fan of the 15 minute adventuring day either, I don't believe the world stops for the characters to rest their 8/16/24 hours either. I simply see it as abilities are given a certain amount of time equivalency in the game world. A 3/day ability given 16 standard hours in an adventuring day (24-8 hours downtime), equates to roughly 5 1/3 hours per use. Given a 1 minute (10 round fight) on, 15 minutes off (16 minute cycle) for 16 hours per day gives an available 60 cycles of use. That's obviously the extreme application of the rule which I doubt anyone would ever allow, but still it shows the maximum effect of the rule. A 3/day ability could be used a possible 63 times that day. Given even low numbers of resting, a 3/day ability could easily become 10 or 15 uses.
You stated the NPC's were active while the PC's took these breaks, there are typically many breaks in adventures while PC's discuss what is happening or search areas or question NPC's or many other actions that consume valuable time and allow the NPC's the same freedom to reset traps, call in reinforcements, etc. Basically, when you setup a certain adventure or scenario, you as the GM make the decision how much time is significant to the adventure, some adventures can weigh time in weeks, hours, or days, others can weigh choices by the round. The more compressed the time period, the more important resource management becomes. I've been in adventures spanning months of time where every hour seemed to be of utmost importance and regaining uses of your abilities could take multiple sessions. That added considerable weight to the option of whether to use that ability or not and made the ability a very valuable resource. In the end, the DM wanted us to be weary, ragged, worn, and scraping the bottom of the barrel on resources, it proved to be a very nail biting experience as healing ran low and every lost hp was like another hour struck on the doom clock.
In the end of course it all comes down to the feel you want for the game. If you want time to be important, imo, resource management is key to giving that feel as the PC's have to weigh their options very carefully. If you're just looking for ways to keep your PC's from resting after every fight, then get inventive, its not that hard to harass a group of camping PC's.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I'm not a huge fan of the 15 minute adventuring day, but I understand that resource management is a huge part of the game. So to try and compensate for it I instituted this recharge rule.
I'd say don't do this. The whole point of D&D is resource management. If you allow anything of this sort, you run the risk of switching to 4E type mechanics.
The system is balanced around the spellcaster has a limited number of abilities per day.
The whole "15 minute work day" is entirely the fault of the caster. If you used more than you should in one combat, you MUST pay a penalty (of being a melee character with half BAB and bad stats) when out of spells until the next day.
One day should be 24 hours on earth like planes, nothing less.
I'm not a huge fan of the 15 minute adventuring day, but I understand that resource management is a huge part of the game. So to try and compensate for it I instituted this recharge rule.I'd say don't do this. The whole point of D&D is resource management. If you allow anything of this sort, you run the risk of switching to 4E type mechanics.
The system is balanced around the spellcaster has a limited number of abilities per day.
The whole "15 minute work day" is entirely the fault of the caster. If you used more than you should in one combat, you MUST pay a penalty (of being a melee character with half BAB and bad stats) when out of spells until the next day.
One day should be 24 hours on earth like planes, nothing less.
Unless you're a level 1 wizard and you cast mage armor AND grease.. thankfully there's infinite cantrips now, so the level 1 wiz can go daze, daze, daze, daze.. which I think would be lots of fun in a tavern.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Unless you're a level 1 wizard and you cast mage armor AND grease..
I don't follow? If you mean to say that a 1st level Wizard can shoot his daily load in one battle by casting Grease (if he opted to have Mage Armour), then the answer is yes. He had a limited resource, he used it. He should feel bad asking for more.
Also, before someone accuses me of "only playing martial classes", I tend to play spell casters more than martial classes. I just believe that if I run out of spells, it is my fault and not the game rules fault.
|
|
Also, before someone accuses me of "only playing martial classes", I tend to play spell casters more than martial classes. I just believe that if I run out of spells, it is my fault and not the game rules fault.
My players still haven't forgotten when I TPKd the all Caster Party on accident.
I think a portion of it may have been that I came back to D&D with the Beta because the math underlying the system was fixed. My players got hooked on having some minor abilities at will, and I liked not accidentally killing them all off, it's more fun to do deliberately (at a handycap mind you).
I don't follow?
...not my fault
p.s. who's complaining daze = win
|
|
The system is balanced around the spellcaster has a limited number of abilities per day.The whole "15 minute work day" is entirely the fault of the caster. If you used more than you should in one combat, you MUST pay a penalty (of being a melee character with half BAB and bad stats) when out of spells until the next day.
I can't see the system as being balanced around the spellcaster.
I actually have yet to have a caster recharge a spell other then shield.
EDIT: They usually recharge their pew pew lasers, and bardic performance.
All the characters have these resources we call hit points which get expended in a very non predictable or voluntary fashion. When the party is out of those, or dangerously close, how could the adventuring day go on?
All the characters have these resources we call hit points which get expended in a very non predictable or voluntary fashion. When the party is out of those, or dangerously close, how could the adventuring day go on?
Potions, scrolls, wand of cure light wounds, etc...
Potions, scrolls, wand of cure light wounds, etc......good answer
but all that does is transform money into time. As opposed to letting them spend time.
You have to admit your question was fairly flippant.
Not really, its just another resource that they have to manage and think ahead about what they'll need. Giving them breaks allows them to ignore the resources they can purchase and supplement themselves with gold, so scrolls, potions, etc become far less valuable.
|
|
You have to admit your question was fairly flippant.
Oh, absolutely
Not really, its just another resource that they have to manage and think ahead about what they'll need. Giving them breaks allows them to ignore the resources they can purchase and supplement themselves with gold, so scrolls, potions, etc become far less valuable.
True enough. And the new Magic item availability system makes that infinitely more feasible.
Personally I'd rather get on with the story.
All the characters have these resources we call hit points which get expended in a very non predictable or voluntary fashion. When the party is out of those, or dangerously close, how could the adventuring day go on?Potions, scrolls, wand of cure light wounds, etc...
I think the "15 minute work day" is more an issue in low levels when casters have very few spells. Channel positive energy has definately helped in this regard. Also infinite cantrips-orisons have helped a lot. A level 1 char can't probably get moer than a 10 charge wand of CLW. There is also the chance that the DM doesn't allow people to buy stuff on a regular basis. In that situation potions, scrolls, wands, may just not be an option.
You have to admit your question was fairly flippant.
Oh, absolutely
Not really, its just another resource that they have to manage and think ahead about what they'll need. Giving them breaks allows them to ignore the resources they can purchase and supplement themselves with gold, so scrolls, potions, etc become far less valuable.True enough. And the new Magic item availability system makes that infinitely more feasible.
Personally I'd rather get on with the story.
We agree to disagree, that's fine. :) I dont mean to be confrontational, just express my opinion and admit I like to argue points. You like the rule, go for it, just pointing out the downsides.
|
|
We agree to disagree, that's fine. :) I dont mean to be confrontational, just express my opinion and admit I like to argue points. You like the rule, go for it, just pointing out the downsides.
No worries, You have been perfectly Cordial.
Also I'm only used to playing at low levels without the cash to make item dependant systems viable.
|
|
I think the "15 minute work day" is more an issue in low levels when casters have very few spells. Channel positive energy has definately helped in this regard. Also infinite cantrips-orisons have helped a lot. A level 1 char can't probably get moer than a 10 charge wand of CLW. There is also the chance that the DM doesn't allow people to buy stuff on a regular basis. In that situation potions, scrolls, wands, may just not be an option.
Oh Definitely, and as I just noted elsewhere, I'm not used to playing, and msot of my experience has been at low levels.
I think the "15 minute work day" is more an issue in low levels when casters have very few spells. Channel positive energy has definately helped in this regard. Also infinite cantrips-orisons have helped a lot. A level 1 char can't probably get moer than a 10 charge wand of CLW. There is also the chance that the DM doesn't allow people to buy stuff on a regular basis. In that situation potions, scrolls, wands, may just not be an option.
I've played in all of the situations you mention and rather than have the party do the fight/rest 8 hours rinse and repeat, the DM was careful to give us resources that we'd need. A potion here, a wand there, some fungus that would heal 1d4 hp's when made into a poultice, a charm of minor spell storing (stores x number of 1st level spells cast into it of school or domain x and is only good for 20 uses or so). Items like these aren't very powerful in the long run but can help lowbies go a bit longer without needing the down time that by default they would need. These can even be worked into back stories, feats, or skills to give the character that slight bit of special that separates them from the rest of the pack.
At later levels they can go buy the stronger items that will help them with level appropriate abilities and the 1st level stuff will be quickly traded or sold for better items. Who wants to go pick fungus and spend time boiling water for clean bandages when a cure light wounds will do the trick.
I've had my group camp at 4 in the afternoon because they ran out of resources. What did I do? I just rolled to see if they had any encounters while camping. I roll for every 4 hours they camp, so since they started at 2PM, I rolled 5 times. They ended up getting attacked about the 3rd roll (disrupted sleep). I ended up rolling a relatively minor thing that almost killed a character. It was a shadow hound and two regular tainted wolves. Unfortunately, the player who's character was on watch rolled, and I kid you not, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, to hear the kobold being dragged off by the three wild dogs (one had him by the throat, one by the arm, and the other by the tail).
Finally, one of the sleeping characters made their averaged listen/con check to hear the noise and wake up. He had dark-vision and saw the dogs dragging the Kobold out of sight (the kobold at this point was at -3 hps due to struggling).
Needless to say, they rescued him, and the BugBear Rogue that failed 5 perceptions in a row was sent back to town and a replacement requested. :)
Good alternative mechanic. I might have to spin this a bit for my homebrew.
I'm not a huge fan of the 15 minute adventuring day, but I understand that resource management is a huge part of the game. So to try and compensate for it I instituted this recharge rule. Which I use to explain why the badguys are similarly recharged, and in the case of those with class levels, willing to back off and try again later. I'd appreciate any and all feedback.
(stuff)
I'm still not decided on the whole resource management vs 15 minutes day thing, but if you and your group see the good in a 'recharge mechanics' (to use your own words), that's cool. Lets see what we got:
- Recharge in the 'X per day' department.
- Healing of some HPs.
- Recovery of some spells.
To that I would add
- Recovery of ability damage.
- Rejuvenation from fatigue/exhaustion.
- Overcoming other "sucky" effects such as fear, paralysis ability penalty etc. even if those effects would be effective for a bit more than 15 minutes. Anything that would have a duration of 1 hour or more stays.
Just to make things run smoother, I'd give static advantages to this mechanic (I also suggest you give it a name, such as 'second wind' or '15-min rest')
So let them:
- automatically recharge 1 of their X per day.
- automatically heal 1 full HD.
- automatically recover a spell slot of their choice (which they must fill with a spell that is available to them.
- automatically recover 1 point of ability damage
- automatically eliminate temporary conditions and effects of less than 1 hours (that should include all buff spells as well).
Finally, allow this thing to happen ONCE per day. If you think its too much, turn this mechanics into a reward card (or whatever) that the group earn when they're doing something exceptionally good/cool/fun.
my 2 coppers anyways...
'findel
15 Minutes is hardly a Little Breather, in my present campaign the party has taken three such breathers in the present locale (The Ironbriar Estate). The villains have in that same time used Unseen Servants to reset several traps, prepared a set of zombies to flank the Party in the final fight, and heal themselves and their minions up fully from a previous encounter.
Yikes!
Sorry if this will sound confrontational. It's not meant to be; please take the tone of this post as astonished rather than aggressive.
If I were in that group, I would say "To hell with the 15-minute rest, let's back out of here and rest a whole day instead."
(which would really trivialize the need for this new houserule.
Sorry, but giving us back a round of rage, a Bless spell, a Shield spell, and 6-10 HP each, does not even come remotely close to facing extra mobs in the final fight (assuming that final fight was supposed to be hard to begin with); those zombies will rip right through those extra HP and we'll be in the hole in no time.
It's also even less close, if possible, to having bad guys we couldn't killt he first time heal themselves and their minions FULLY in return for our few HP, two spells, and a round of rage. Nowhere near entering the distant realm of close.
I'm not sure about the trap thing - depending on how vicious the traps were or how hard to disable, they could easily do more damage than the tiny bit of HP we got for resting, or they might do nothing at all. I'd call this one a tie - we rested and got a small benefit, but the bad guys got a small benefit as well.
That's two rests that worked horribly against us and one rest that might have helped us as much as the bad guys, more or less.
Two losses and a draw out of three rests.
That would be the last time I ever deliberately used this mechanic.
Why even bother to give the players something that initially looks and feels like a favorable mechanic, then scheme and plot behind their backs to punish them for using it (surely giving the bad buys more - far more - of a benefit from the 15 minutes than you give the players can hardly be constituded as anything other than punishment)?
Sure, I get it. Your world is "real". You believe in "verisimilitude".
So do I. More than most, I'm told.
So I really do get it. The players give the bad guys time to react, the bad guys want to survive, so they make the most of that time. Often, they have more resources in their home than the players have out on the road (hey, that's why most sports teams win more at home than they do on the road, right?). So, any break in the action will usually benefit the defenders, the home team, more than the adventurers.
Totally makes sense.
But, it does invalidate the entire purpose of this rule.
It essentially says "Hey, guys, you're worn out, used up. Why don't you rest and get back a small portion of your full capacity? You're going to need it. Of course, if you do, the bad guys will get back a large portion of their capacity, so large in fact, that it will completely negate any benefit you get from resting and almost certainly cause you more harm than good. So, come on, go ahead and take that 15-minute rest."
Even on the times this doesn't happen, I would never be willing to risk it.
I'm trying to discern a way to simplify the mechanic so it's easier to play with, but I'm having a hard time.
One thing I'd suggest: Simplify spell recovery so it doesn't involve rolls. Here's how I'd do it:
"One expended spell slot is recharged for each of the character's spellcasting classes. The slot's spell level must be, at most, half the character's maximum spell level in the slot's class, rounded down. If these slots are for a prepared spell, it is chosen at the end of the short rest."
What do you think? I frankly don't like the Spellcraft check for another reason as well -- Take 10 + various feats = reliably high check.