...or, "Bad d20 products".
Hi all!
I've been finding myself gobbling up d20 material published by third-party publishers left and right here of late. The prices on most books and supplements are a bargain, and I really enjoy 3.0/3.5/PF, so it's a good fit.
I've often read about sub-par d20 material and have even heard folks talk about the "glut" of d20 material a few years ago. Although I know all too well that a lot of d20 material was published over the years (especially if you add in pdfs), I have to admit that I haven't found anything just out-and-out horrible yet.
What about you? What would advise someone to stay away from, third-party d20 or otherwise (3.0, 3.5, d20 Modern)?
I'm not around my collection right now, but I can name a couple:
Such is the Way of the Faeries: A Guide to the Thornwode Deeps by Elmore Productions (not a bad book, but not a priority for one's collection; very, very crunch lite, as if the crunch was an after thought)
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (maybe it's just my taste, but um...no...)
Planar Handbook (a hodge-podge, desperate attempt to ring another hardback book out of the subject of the Planes)
...?
This is just personal tastes, but I thought the Epic Level Handbook and Savage Species were terrible execution of excellent ideas. Level Adjustments made my head hurt. Both felt like they were trying to do something the core rules were never meant to do.
Complete Psionic: A combination of disappointment over what might have been, and good, old-fashioned lousy writing and editing.
I hope you have a fire extinguisher as this will not sit well with some folks.Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (maybe it's just my taste, but um...no...)
Bwahawahaw! If I get flamed for an honest opinion, I must be hanging out at the wrong forum [/sarcasm]
Now, Jack, don't be Callous: at least address the original topic. You have to have something to add to the list...
I hope you have a fire extinguisher as this will not sit well with some folks.Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (maybe it's just my taste, but um...no...)
I know what you are saying, CJ, but he did say it was just his taste. Not some of the other personal opinion being trotted around like irrefutable fact.
If I get flamed for an honest opinion, I must be hanging out at the wrong forum [/sarcasm]
Try saying you like 4e. Go ahead. Just try it. :)
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What about you? What would advise someone to stay away from, third-party d20 or otherwise (3.0, 3.5, d20 Modern)?
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (maybe it's just my taste, but um...no...)
I would agree on the BONS handbook.
Otherwise as a rule I'd say stay away from ANYTHING Fast Forward Entertainment.
I'd caution also against Bottled Imp Games series the lords of the night ...
Troll Lord Games had some fairly special adventures, which I would not recommend to everybody, despite the Gygax claims and so on ... say doing a city adventure around Debbie Harry (Blondie) is a bit ... special to me, and that's probably the best one in the bunch.
And that's about it, as I enjoyed most of the rest to various degrees.
Of course, this is all pretty subjective.
+1. I'll bring hotdogs and marshmallows.I hope you have a fire extinguisher as this will not sit well with some folks.Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords (maybe it's just my taste, but um...no...)
You, sir, must have a weenie... or a few, evidently <grin>
Troll Lord Games had some fairly special adventures, which I would not recommend to everybody, despite the Gygax claims and so on ... say doing a city adventure around Debbie Harry (Blondie) is a bit ... special to me, and that's probably the best one in the bunch.
I love me some Troll Lord Games, especially Castles and Crusades stuff. Their d20 products were...interesting... sometimes, though...
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I would say that the Book of Erotic Fantasy and Nymphology were two that I was less than happy with. Of course that's what you get for buying books just to satisfy purient interests. The Slayers Guide to series was a good concept, but poor execution. Same with Sword and Sorcery's Players Guide to series. Also there was a line that I can't remember the title of, but it dealt with Egyption and Mayan settings and such and generally featured almost bare chested women on the cover. I was generally disappointed with those as well. I never bought any but I did flip through a few and I was appaled by the historical inacuracies in what were billed as sourcebooks for historical role-playing.
Hrm... well, there was a Dragonlance Bestiary that was pretty poor but I'm forgetting the name now. I heard the MMs after MM3 were pretty bad too.
Now you're on to something! The 1st printing (3.0?) of the Dragonlance: Bestiary of Krynn was bad. The 2nd printing (DL: BoK Revised; 3.5?) "looked" better, but I never picked it up...
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Now you're on to something! The 1st printing (3.0?) of the Dragonlance: Bestiary of Krynn was bad. The 2nd printing (DL: BoK Revised; 3.5?) "looked" better, but I never picked it up...Hrm... well, there was a Dragonlance Bestiary that was pretty poor but I'm forgetting the name now. I heard the MMs after MM3 were pretty bad too.
It was slicker and better looking the the 3.0 version, but it was still bad crunchwise.
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Hmm, let's see... stuff I don't care for...
Epic Level Handbook - I agree with Courtfool on this one. Excellent concept; utterly terrible execution.
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords - Love the flavor, can't stand the mechanics.
Weapons of Legacy - Another cool concept that falls flat on its face.
And that's really about it from the books I own. I'm sure there's a few third-party books that I have that I doubt have ever seen use, but I can't think of any at the moment.
I would say that the Book of Erotic Fantasy and Nymphology were two that I was less than happy with. Of course that's what you get for buying books just to satisfy purient interests. The Slayers Guide to series was a good concept, but poor execution. Same with Sword and Sorcery's Players Guide to series. Also there was a line that I can't remember the title of, but it dealt with Egyption and Mayan settings and such and generally featured almost bare chested women on the cover. I was generally disappointed with those as well. I never bought any but I did flip through a few and I was appaled by the historical inacuracies in what were billed as sourcebooks for historical role-playing.
Nymphology has a damn-potent spell. Off the top of my head, it's "Summon Sexual Partner" and it's like 1st level. Can you imagine the havoc a spell like that would create!? Forget "Fireball"...
I totally agree with S&S's Player's Guide series. I was going to list those, but I refrained. I figured maybe fans of the Scarred Lands setting found more use out of them. As generic sourcebooks, they weren't the best.
As for the bare chested covers, you are thinking of the series of books by Avalanche Press. Geez, it's embarrassing buying one of those in person at the FLGS, lol! Seriously, the marketing was blatant: semi-nude, full color spreads. In fact, the artist has even more provocative artwork out there. Anyway, I really enjoyed two books from that publisher: "Noble Steeds" (buff your mount!) and "All for One, and One for All" (Musketeers)
I've found (from looking through them; I've never had the urge to buy one after flipping through it) that most of Mongoose Publishing's d20 stuff is incredibly bad. From drastically over-powered to drastically under-powered, within the same book, on the same page, sometimes even in the same class or feat. There's no consistency and seemingly very little thought given to anything but getting it out the door as fast as possible. IMO, they're the d20 equivalent of what the video game industry calls "shovelware" -- games you can code in a week and shove out the door in an "11 games for the price of 1!" package with no thought given to any kind of design.
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I totally agree with S&S's Player's Guide series. I was going to list those, but I refrained. I figured maybe fans of the Scarred Lands setting found more use out of them. As generic sourcebooks, they weren't the best.
I am a fan of the Scarred lands setting and I never got any use out of them. Although they did take a stab at sorcerer bloodlines, something that I really like from PFRPG.
Or that you like Drizzt.If I get flamed for an honest opinion, I must be hanging out at the wrong forum [/sarcasm]Try saying you like 4e. Go ahead. Just try it. :)
I like Drizzt. Mostly I enjoy the writings of Salvatore as those are what got me into the hobby in the first place. Love that mans fight scenes.
4e... I have not really formed a die-hard opinion about. I've only played once.
On topic though... some of the Mongoose publishing material had to be taken with a grain of salt or three. At least... in the cast of their 3.0 "Ulitimate Book of Feats".
Legends and Lairs is a really wildly mixed bag. I picked up my copies of the books at a second hand store ($5 each). For that price, it was useful. The City Works actually had some good stuff in it that I use (3.0). Had two really good classes I liked (Acrobat and Pit Fighter, kind of a performing Monk/Pugilist and a Barbarian Light that got lots of exotic weapon proficiencies and tricks). The Assassin class in it was *blech*. I hate classes that have auto-kill features. Most of the PRC's were garbage. Their Traps and Treachery books were very very useful and inventive (lots of traps and sneaky things to do to the players). Their Paths and Faiths was junk.
Sword & Sorcery, imho, has put out nothing that wasn't garbage or way over the top. Got my copies at the same secondhand store, feel like I paid too much. Blech.
Necromancer Games' Tome of Horror is a nice mixture of really good fluff, very bad artwork, and insane or useless monster stats. Nothing in there is the right CR, but the fluff is wonderful.
Green Ronin's Races Of Renown series was really very very good. There's a bunch of stuff you need to look at with a magnifying glass, but there's also a lot of good stuff. I'm pretty sure YMMV with these as there is so much stuff in them that there is bound to be some you love, some you go 'meh' at, and some you go 'WTF?' at. Worth what I paid though, especial Plot & Poison (Drow race book). I liked it more than Drow of the Underdark to be honest. The Orc book was very good also. The Dwarf and Elf books though were not that great in comparison. Seems like the Monster Races got better treatment than the core races, which may have something to do with the fact that there is more freedom with them than there are with the cores.
It was slicker and better looking the the 3.0 version, but it was still bad crunchwise.Now you're on to something! The 1st printing (3.0?) of the Dragonlance: Bestiary of Krynn was bad. The 2nd printing (DL: BoK Revised; 3.5?) "looked" better, but I never picked it up...Hrm... well, there was a Dragonlance Bestiary that was pretty poor but I'm forgetting the name now. I heard the MMs after MM3 were pretty bad too.
That's unfortunate. I was interested in the book just to have it, but I don't want to clutter my mind with more bad crunch, lol!
I know what you are saying, CJ, but he did say it was just his taste. Not some of the other personal opinion being trotted around like irrefutable fact.I disagree with your logic, therefore I am right.
Exactly, but less polite.
Kingdoms of Kalamar did nothing for me.
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To each his own;
the problem with a thread like this is it turns into a morass of "I hate this!" "No way--that's teh roxxOrs!" "Wauggh! I like pie!"
BO9S IS TEH ROXXORS, BYOCH!
onnyhoo...
As an aside, they dig it the most here at Paizo if you get onto products and review them, so by all means: if something sucks, give it a star on it's product page and explicate what a piece it is.
As a general rule, I rarely look at third-party materials for 3.X, with very few exceptions.
I would say that the Book of Erotic Fantasy and Nymphology were two that I was less than happy with. Of course that's what you get for buying books just to satisfy purient interests.
While Nymphology is admittedly horribly immature and vulgar, BoEF is actually, for the most part, a rather mature take on the matter with a fair amount of useful material, including interesting information on various races' views on romance, sexuality, marriage, and child-rearing. All important aspects of the human condition that are often glossed over by a more prudish society.
It's one of the very few third party books I actually like, as it fills a gap that other books rarely cover in a useful manner, and it does so in a mature manner. Though, of course, I'm not about to hand it over and give the party full reign over that stuff, or let That Guy run a succubus Tantrist/Dominatrix in my game, but that goes back to a need for a mature take on the matter. I'm very selective about what I actually use. Like Reverse Gender. Retributive Reverse Gender is the best spell effect ever.
Legends and Lairs is a really wildly mixed bag.
I agree. I wanted to like the "Path of..." series, but...???
Sword & Sorcery, imho, has put out nothing that wasn't garbage or way over the top.
I have most of the Scarred Lands stuff, namely because I got it on the cheap. I have to say I really like the "Relics and Rituals: Olympus" and "R&R: Excaliber" books. I also like "Advanced Player's Guide", but I really don't see me using most of the rules 'cause it would just bog down the game (armor damage, weapon speed factors).
Necromancer Games' Tome of Horror is a nice mixture of really good fluff, very bad artwork, and insane or useless monster stats. Nothing in there is the right CR, but the fluff is wonderful.
I'll admit that I judged Necromancer Games' products by their covers and never picked them up. However, Tome of Horror (1, 2, & 3??) I've seen go for some high prices on Amazon.
Green Ronin's Races Of Renown series was really very very good.
LOVED the Half-Orc book. I finally got the Dwarf book, but didn't like it *as* well (still a good book). I like Green Ronin's stuff in general. I especially like their "Mythic Vistas" series. "Spirosblaak" has the best gunpowder weapon rules (from pistols to artillery) in one place that I've come across yet.
To each his own;
the problem with a thread like this is it turns into a morass of "I hate this!" "No way--that's teh roxxOrs!" "Wauggh! I like pie!"BO9S IS TEH ROXXORS, BYOCH!
onnyhoo...As an aside, they dig it the most here at Paizo if you get onto products and review them, so by all means: if something sucks, give it a star on it's product page and explicate what a piece it is.
<sigh> "YES, Mother..." ... ... ... ... ...
Sword & Sorcery, imho, has put out nothing that wasn't garbage or way over the top.I have most of the Scarred Lands stuff, namely because I got it on the cheap. I have to say I really like the "Relics and Rituals: Olympus" and "R&R: Excaliber" books. I also like "Advanced Player's Guide", but I really don't see me using most of the rules 'cause it would just bog down the game (armor damage, weapon speed factors).
Necromancer Games' Tome of Horror is a nice mixture of really good fluff, very bad artwork, and insane or useless monster stats. Nothing in there is the right CR, but the fluff is wonderful.I'll admit that I judged Necromancer Games' products by their covers and never picked them up. However, Tome of Horror (1, 2, & 3??) I've seen go for some high prices on Amazon.
Don't have any of those three S&S's, just Relics & Rituals and a couple of Creature Collections (1 & 2), all of which are bad.
After reading your comment, I went and pulled the Tome to double check my memory. Which, ironically enough, is published by Necromancer under S&S's label. I got them mixed up with Monsternomicon by Privateer Press. Now, I've heard good things about Privateer Press, but this book is awful. Tome of Horror's isn't bad (I just got the two confused in my memory).
Green Ronin's Races Of Renown series was really very very good.LOVED the Half-Orc book. I finally got the Dwarf book, but didn't like it *as* well (still a good book). I like Green Ronin's stuff in general. I especially like their "Mythic Vistas" series. "Spirosblaak" has the best gunpowder weapon rules (from pistols to artillery) in one place that I've come across yet.
I'll have to try find a copy of that. I'd love a good set of rules for gunpowder weapons. But yeah, the Dwarf book wasn't as good as the Orc or Drow book. The Mindflayer book is... wierd. :)
Yep...Planar Handbook was the first time I opened a new gaming book that I bought and couldn't find a single page that gave me a gamer hard-on.
Sword & Sorcery, imho, has put out nothing that wasn't garbage or way over the top.I have most of the Scarred Lands stuff, namely because I got it on the cheap. I have to say I really like the "Relics and Rituals: Olympus" and "R&R: Excaliber" books. I also like "Advanced Player's Guide", but I really don't see me using most of the rules 'cause it would just bog down the game (armor damage, weapon speed factors).
Necromancer Games' Tome of Horror is a nice mixture of really good fluff, very bad artwork, and insane or useless monster stats. Nothing in there is the right CR, but the fluff is wonderful.I'll admit that I judged Necromancer Games' products by their covers and never picked them up. However, Tome of Horror (1, 2, & 3??) I've seen go for some high prices on Amazon.
Don't have any of those three S&S's, just Relics & Rituals and a couple of Creature Collections (1 & 2), all of which are bad.
After reading your comment, I went and pulled the Tome to double check my memory. Which, ironically enough, is published by Necromancer under S&S's label. I got them mixed up with Monsternomicon by Privateer Press. Now, I've heard good things about Privateer Press, but this book is awful. Tome of Horror's isn't bad (I just got the two confused in my memory).
Green Ronin's Races Of Renown series was really very very good.LOVED the Half-Orc book. I finally got the Dwarf book, but didn't like it *as* well (still a good book). I like Green Ronin's stuff in general. I especially like their "Mythic Vistas" series. "Spirosblaak" has the best gunpowder weapon rules (from pistols to artillery) in one place that I've come across yet.
I'll have to try find a copy of that. I'd love a good set of rules for gunpowder weapons. But yeah, the Dwarf book wasn't as good as the Orc or Drow book. The Mindflayer book is... wierd. :)
Yep...Planar Handbook was the first time I opened a new gaming book that I bought and couldn't find a single page that gave me a gamer hard-on.
That's because nobody every paid attention to the back of the book. No offense intended. It's not a player supplement, it's a GM supplement. I personally love it as it has lots of information for me as a GM on planes.
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As for the bare chested covers, you are thinking of the series of books by Avalanche Press. Geez, it's embarrassing buying one of those in person at the FLGS, lol! Seriously, the marketing was blatant: semi-nude, full color spreads. In fact, the artist has even more provocative artwork out there. Anyway, I really enjoyed two books from that publisher: "Noble Steeds" (buff your mount!) and "All for One, and One for All" (Musketeers)
Eeuargh. I made the mistake of buying Avalanche's "Endless Sands" book (their take on d20 Arabian Adventures). This is what I bring out to show people when I talk about craptastic OGL material from the early 2000s.
Kingdoms of Kalamar did nothing for me.
Agreed.
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<sigh> "YES, Mother..." ... ... ... ... ...To each his own;
the problem with a thread like this is it turns into a morass of "I hate this!" "No way--that's teh roxxOrs!" "Wauggh! I like pie!"BO9S IS TEH ROXXORS, BYOCH!
onnyhoo...As an aside, they dig it the most here at Paizo if you get onto products and review them, so by all means: if something sucks, give it a star on it's product page and explicate what a piece it is.
Don't call me that.....I would've strangled you at birth.
Eeuargh. I made the mistake of buying Avalanche's "Endless Sands" book (their take on d20 Arabian Adventures). This is what I bring out to show people when I talk about craptastic OGL material from the early 2000s.
Well nigh 15 years ago, I was in a very memorable campaign that spanned Ravenloft and Al-Qadim. I snagged "Endless Sands" for that reason...no, seriously ;-) I've honestly never taken much of a look inside.
I also bought "Tales of the Caliphate Nights". For one, I spent way too much for it (retail price is ridiculous) and it's too grounded in real-world religion in many ways for my tastes. There is some interesting information in it, but it left me feeling... odd...
Yep...Planar Handbook was the first time I opened a new gaming book that I bought and couldn't find a single page that gave me a gamer hard-on.They have viagra for that: It's called a Richard Pett adventure.
I'll kill you!
::Cries into his hands staring down at his flaccid dice::
Yep...Planar Handbook was the first time I opened a new gaming book that I bought and couldn't find a single page that gave me a gamer hard-on.That's because nobody every paid attention to the back of the book. No offense intended. It's not a player supplement, it's a GM supplement. I personally love it as it has lots of information for me as a GM on planes.
I guess so, I just felt like Manual of the Planes was soooooo much better in that regard.
<sigh> "YES, Mother..." ... ... ... ... ...Don't call me that.....I would've strangled you at birth.
So you're female, huh? Kewl! A female gamer grrl!!
<eye roll>
Kingdoms of Kalamar did nothing for me.Agreed.
The campaign setting book failed to fascinate me as well. On the other hand, the "Coin" trilogy of modules proved to be a fun read. It would take some tweaking to RUN those adventures, as some little details in them are problematic or nonsensical, but still, I wouldn't mind checking out some other Kalamar modules someday.
Hmm, let's see... stuff I don't care for...
Epic Level Handbook - I agree with Courtfool on this one. Excellent concept; utterly terrible execution.
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords - Love the flavor, can't stand the mechanics.
Weapons of Legacy - Another cool concept that falls flat on its face.
And that's really about it from the books I own. I'm sure there's a few third-party books that I have that I doubt have ever seen use, but I can't think of any at the moment.
I love and hate this book so much. The ideas are nice, but taking penalties to use the weapon/item are not attractive to me at all. I would rather the ritual to unlock the sword's secrets be really hard, than me having to deal with penalties.
Edit: I was talking about Weapons of Legacy