Sorry to post so much, but I keep having different things come into the forebrain that merit a seperate post.
With that said, I'd like to discuss worldbuilding a bit more.
The source reference document for my world can be found at http://worldoftinris.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/initial-overview-wip
In my previous post, I discussed my beloved Halflings on my homebrew world. Now I'm moving on to the rest of the races in a comparative analysis.
As I see things, Elves on this world really get the short end of the stick. Sub-normal-fantasy human lifespans, no racial deity, harsh living conditions in their home islands and other factors. They're rather in a Charlie Foxtrot situation after their racial deity's death several centuries previous. Since then, their lives have grown shorter, the reproductive drive/ability has faded, and the entire race is in the twilight years of its existence.
My Beloved Spouse (Kobold chorus: "We love you!") has pointed out that this trend seems to make these Elves almost unrecognizable as Elves. Sure, they have pointy ears. They use bows and live rather tree-huggy lives. They speak Elven. But she suggested that I not CALL them Elves because they 'violate the preconceptions most players have of Elves' (paraphrasing, but close to verbatim quote).
Moving on from Elves, you may also next notice that the Dwarves of this world aren't really Dwarven. Sure they have beards (even the women!) and they're very clannish. But they're not miners, they're farmers. They have a democratic society. They're nomadic. There are SOME that are curious about 'traditionally Dwarven' things like archaeology, but this is a very recent trend spawned after one clan stumbled across a 'dig' while farming. (This being not in the source doc yet, but in my brain)
So, my Beloved Spouse (Kobold chorus: "We love you!") thinks these individuals shouldn't be called Dwarves.
So, I guess this brings us to the question again. What do you fine people think? Each race DOES have its own 'native name' for itself, as currently outlined. But should I use the traditional fantasy names? Should I change them? Should I document elsewhere in the source that X race is actually an analogue of Y race with a different name? (ie list the racial equivalents in a system reference document like a 'GM's guide' rather than the 'player's guide' such as an entry in the GMG stating "Barnatim are Orcs")
This brings us to the audience participation part of this post. What do you all think? Am I changing too much? Should names be altered to protect the innocent?
Constructive input is very welcome and appreciated.
Having been in a homebrew scifi where various racial expys are used, you can use different names but be prepared to spend a lot of time telling players "Well, they're (standard fantasy race) with a few differences." ie "They're drow but instead of living underground, the star of their system is a red supergiant, providing limited light to the surface," etc. Races do have expectations that you can defy or modify, but if a race is clannish, short, and bearded, just call them dwarves; if they're tall, slim, and have pointy ears, they're elves. Changing the names are just going to confuse people.
Having been in a homebrew scifi where various racial expys are used, you can use different names but be prepared to spend a lot of time telling players "Well, they're (standard fantasy race) with a few differences." ie "They're drow but instead of living underground, the star of their system is a red supergiant, providing limited light to the surface," etc. Races do have expectations that you can defy or modify, but if a race is clannish, short, and bearded, just call them dwarves; if they're tall, slim, and have pointy ears, they're elves. Changing the names are just going to confuse people.
Thanks! This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for!
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Your Elves sound pretty Elvish to me. LotR defined Elves as being in a racial decline by the time Frodo took the Ring to Mordor. They were leaving this world and "Going West". You simply changed that decline from metaphorical to practical. If they are still graceful, have pointy ears, use swords and bows and still have a civilization older than most they are still Elves (just aren't happy keebler elves).
Your Dwarves still sound very Dwarven too, just because they don't mine and spend their lives in caves chasing gold doesn't make them non-dwarves. Raymond E. Feist's view of Dwarves in "Magician" had Dwarves as primarily Farmers and Warriors, very few actually toiled away in the mines. They preferred the sun, open fields and tending to their flocks to toiling away in mines. They still had origins in the dark places of the world, but even Golarion's dwarves strived to live in the light. Beards, clans and a propensity for grudge holding is still dwarven.
I agree with Lyingbastard (and isn't that an amusing statement?). If there's more similarities than differences, just stick with the default name. You're going to end up describing them as "they're like elves but different" (in more words) anyway, and your players will just mentally label them elves regardless of the name you use.
Generally speaking, it's not worth fighting the name barrier. Players, in my experience, are much quicker to pick up the differences from "standard" races than they are to pick up the naming difference. You can tell them "they're elves but they hate magic and live on mountains" and they'll remember that pretty much right away. If you tell them "they're elves but they hate magic and live on mountains and they're called Hustiyoi" they'll remember the first two parts, dismiss the third as irrelevant, and call them elves (in their minds, if not out loud).
Just stick with the tried-and-true unless you've got something truly original. And, if you do have something truly original, try to figure out a nickname in addition to the requisite overly-fancy official name. Kinda like World of Warcraft's "blood elves" vs "sin'dorei" (except of course that the blood elves aren't terribly original).
I agree with Lyingbastard (and isn't that an amusing statement?). If there's more similarities than differences, just stick with the default name. You're going to end up describing them as "they're like elves but different" (in more words) anyway, and your players will just mentally label them elves regardless of the name you use.
Generally speaking, it's not worth fighting the name barrier. Players, in my experience, are much quicker to pick up the differences from "standard" races than they are to pick up the naming difference. You can tell them "they're elves but they hate magic and live on mountains" and they'll remember that pretty much right away. If you tell them "they're elves but they hate magic and live on mountains and they're called Hustiyoi" they'll remember the first two parts, dismiss the third as irrelevant, and call them elves (in their minds, if not out loud).
Just stick with the tried-and-true unless you've got something truly original. And, if you do have something truly original, try to figure out a nickname in addition to the requisite overly-fancy official name. Kinda like World of Warcraft's "blood elves" vs "sin'dorei" (except of course that the blood elves aren't terribly original).
In keeping with the WoW example, the Dranaei are different enough from most standard races that there isn't that immediate urge to just call them what they're based on; they more or less establish their own identity.
I also recall a conversation that went something like this. "What are those little guys, then?" "Oh, those are Kender." "Well, are they halflings or gnomes?" "Neither, they're Kender." "What's that mean?" "Well, they're really curious, and innocent minded, cute, and a bit klepto." "So, they're halflings." "No, they're Kender." (Another player looks up) "What's a Kender?"
As for the OP, "elf" and "dwarf" are, in themselves, mechanical abstractions for races that give you bonuses to X and Y, penalties to Z. Thus, I have no problem with your elves and dwarves being called elves and dwarves, respectively.
What imo is a bit trickier is some of the fluff they come with. Elves having short livespans and little drive for reproduction... well, psychologically it sounds a bit counterintuitive. It could work if their entire race has a serious depression problem (and you're ok with them disappearing within a century or two), but normally reproduction serves a psychological role as well - ensuring your own future by creating offspring. If your life spans centuries or millenia it might be less necessary, but in a shorter life imo founding a family and having children would be a pretty important thing. It is a basic enough instinct that I find it quite hard to believe an entire race would suppress it.
As for dwarves, from a social perspective nomad societies and agriculture just don't work together. You can't work the land if you don't live on it for extended periods of time (even if you eventually move, like the slash-and-burn farming cultures did). A seminomadic society, where a part of the tribe moves away (i.e. to herd animals) and a part does not (and tends the lands), is ok, but farmers simply can't afford to be nomads*. If they leave their land, what is to guarantee they will not find someone else there when they come back?
*: I have read that some medieval steppe societies were like that, with men moving out to herd animals in the spring and coming back in the autumn, and women remaining in the villages and cultivating the land. It might be an interesting way to develop a society, and can provide for some fascinating traditions.
Your Elves sound pretty Elvish to me. LotR defined Elves as being in a racial decline by the time Frodo took the Ring to Mordor. They were leaving this world and "Going West". You simply changed that decline from metaphorical to practical. If they are still graceful, have pointy ears, use swords and bows and still have a civilization older than most they are still Elves (just aren't happy keebler elves).
Your Dwarves still sound very Dwarven too, just because they don't mine and spend their lives in caves chasing gold doesn't make them non-dwarves. Raymond E. Feist's view of Dwarves in "Magician" had Dwarves as primarily Farmers and Warriors, very few actually toiled away in the mines. They preferred the sun, open fields and tending to their flocks to toiling away in mines. They still had origins in the dark places of the world, but even Golarion's dwarves strived to live in the light. Beards, clans and a propensity for grudge holding is still dwarven.
Hm, hadn't thought about that LotR angle for things. Mostly, I think, because I've been trying to avoid dipping into 'traditional' fantasy. (In case that wasn't somehow obvious)
As for the Dwarves, I think you've just provided me some new reading material.
I really do appreciate this comment. Thank you!
Just stick with the tried-and-true unless you've got something truly original. And, if you do have something truly original, try to figure out a nickname in addition to the requisite overly-fancy official name. Kinda like World of Warcraft's "blood elves" vs "sin'dorei" (except of course that the blood elves aren't terribly original).
Thank you, that puts this in perfect context. I'm a recovering WoW addict.
And no, "Blood Elf" isn't terribly original, nor is it descriptive of what Blood Elves in WoW are. They... haven't got a thing to DO with Blood.
Re: Kender
Y'know, I'd never thought of that. Then again, I seem to be showing a true color of myself with this. I always am guilty of assuming that since *I* know something that *EVERYONE ELSE* knows it too. So with this, you've shown me a proper path for this.
To sum up, if you have Elves that are "not quite Elves" then you can still call them Elves, but if you have Elves that are "most definitely not Elves" then you may want to consider using another name to avoid confusing your players.
Perfectly phrased and excellently summarized. I guess I'll have to figure out which applies. In the current revision, they are "Not quite Elves" but over revisions they may become "most definitely not Elves"
Kudos!
As for the OP, "elf" and "dwarf" are, in themselves, mechanical abstractions for races that give you bonuses to X and Y, penalties to Z. Thus, I have no problem with your elves and dwarves being called elves and dwarves, respectively.
Very good point. I hadn't considered this from anything outside of the 'preconception' of the race. The mechanics are definitely getting integrated with the draft I'm working now, but it is still a mechanic.
What imo is a bit trickier is some of the fluff they come with. Elves having short livespans and little drive for reproduction... well, psychologically it sounds a bit counterintuitive. It could work if their entire race has a serious depression problem (and you're ok with them disappearing within a century or two), but normally reproduction serves a psychological role as well - ensuring your own future by creating offspring.
Hmm, had not considered that. I do rather see them as racially depressed, but depressed to that degree would indicate something larger than depression. I'm fence-sitting on the matter, waffling between "cursed by the demise of their deity to fade away" and "struggling against said fade" This comment has given me much food for thought, and is greatly appreciated.
*: I have read that some medieval steppe societies were like that, with men moving out to herd animals in the spring and coming back in the autumn, and women remaining in the villages and cultivating the land. It might be an interesting way to develop a society, and can provide for some fascinating traditions.
And yet once more, another great bit of feedback. To this point, I've been working in broad brush strokes of design. It's time to get some of the fine details down. And I believe that I might just take this one as a fine detail. Making it so that a portion of each clan remains on a settlement while the rest nomad about a bit makes for some wonderful fluff. Very serious thanks!
And no, "Blood Elf" isn't terribly original, nor is it descriptive of what Blood Elves in WoW are. They... haven't got a thing to DO with Blood.
[serious tangent alert!]
Technically they do, although you'd never know it if you didn't look for it. They're called "blood elves" for exactly the same reason that red is one of the colors on the American flag: remembrance of the blood of the fallen. At the end of the Third War, the high elves were nearly wiped out by the undead armies commanded by the Lich King. Something like 90% of them died. Prince Kael'thas gathered the survivors and renamed them "sin'dorei", meaning "children of the blood", to remember the tragedy that formed their new identity. From that, the other races gave them the nickname "blood elves".
[/tangent]
And no, "Blood Elf" isn't terribly original, nor is it descriptive of what Blood Elves in WoW are. They... haven't got a thing to DO with Blood.[serious tangent alert!]
** spoiler omitted **
[/tangent]
Huh, I should have paid better attention while running all those quests. I know a good chunk of Azerothian lore, but by no means a LOT. Thanks for stepping up with this.
*grins* I guess it's a silly thing to aspire to, but at the end of this project, I'd like to see the world I'm writing live and breathe like Azeroth and its environs. I am such a dork.
Huh, I should have paid better attention while running all those quests. I know a good chunk of Azerothian lore, but by no means a LOT. Thanks for stepping up with this.*grins* I guess it's a silly thing to aspire to, but at the end of this project, I'd like to see the world I'm writing live and breathe like Azeroth and its environs. I am such a dork.
Why? The reason WoW is so successful - to the point where even I, who have NEVER PLAYED WoW, understand the references fairly well - is because the fantasy world is so well executed that players actually have fun with it. It's something people can get into, and that's something every RPG campaign world should aspire to - offering an experience that people want to be part of.
In fact, that's what a lot of SF and Fantasy should aim towards as well - creating a setting and environment that people want to be part of. That's the difference between a once-read flash in the pan, and things that people talk about 20 years later, rediscovering over and over.
In fact, that's what a lot of SF and Fantasy should aim towards as well - creating a setting and environment that people want to be part of. That's the difference between a once-read flash in the pan, and things that people talk about 20 years later, rediscovering over and over.
Very good point, and well said. I started writing fantasy fiction back in High School, and have taken a long hiatus. I did a lot of sci-fi worldbuilding a couple years back, but I'm happy to be back writing fantasy.
And with the help of you and the rest of these forums, I think I might have a shot at something good.
Thanks again!
Hmm, had not considered that. I do rather see them as racially depressed, but depressed to that degree would indicate something larger than depression. I'm fence-sitting on the matter, waffling between "cursed by the demise of their deity to fade away" and "struggling against said fade" This comment has given me much food for thought, and is greatly appreciated.
Well, chances are that unless their psychology is radically different from anything else, struggle they shall. They might not be particularly effective in their struggle, but it's not like the alternative is any better. However, a change like losing your deity and having your lifespan shortened to, say, a fifth of what it was will probably necessitate huge social changes, and a different mentality. Elves will have to reinvent themselves, and it will take time, a long time given the change they need to undergo.
Maybe this time already passed if the change was long enough ago, but if it hasn't, it will be a period of confusion and uncertainty among the elves. Chances are, all matter of subcultures and different values will be rife within their settlement, and elves will be as varied in their outlook as anyone other race - probably more. Imagine the post-WWI roaring 20's, the 60s - heck, practically any period of great social change and upheaval, and multiply that by as much as you want.
This might not be a great time to be an elf, but it will certainly be an interesting one. Unfortunately, in your case it is probably mostly past - several centuries are enough even for the elves to get off their collective keisters and decide what they want to do. Maybe, however, there are still many elves that have viewpoints the majority consider aberrant - from religious fundamentalists to jaded urbanites. Chances are, the majority will be rather... upset at the halflings.
BTW, what happens to the gnomes?
This might not be a great time to be an elf, but it will certainly be an interesting one. Unfortunately, in your case it is probably mostly past - several centuries are enough even for the elves to get off their collective keisters and decide what they want to do. Maybe, however, there are still many elves that have viewpoints the majority consider aberrant - from religious fundamentalists to jaded urbanites. Chances are, the majority will be rather... upset at the halflings.
BTW, what happens to the gnomes?
In all honesty, I'm still working on fleshing out how the Elves are going to.. well.. do whatever they will. A lot of this thread has been dedicated to learning better ways to make the races click better with the world.
As I see it currently, there are probably less than 30 Elves outside of their own little homeland. While they're not second class citizens elsewhere in the world, many of the primary races do feel sorry for them. I've yet to decide how the Elves feel about such. But I'm getting an idea, thanks to you.
As for the Gnomes, well, you're not cleared for that Citizen. (By which I mean I've not quite figured that out myself just yet)
I found one of the key things in developing racial identities is balancing what the players want and what you (as a DM) want.
My world is a sentient plane that dreams everyone and everything into existence. Magic is explained through attaining lucidity, and thus recognizing that the world is a dream and that you can do and create almost anything. Gods are actually the memes of society, and gain their status thanks to the collected thought and focus upon them. I have a unique race of beings known as the Forgotten, who are mysterious individuals that the plane itself somehow "forgot" about, yet their presence remains (they're basically invisible humanoids). Minotaur are blue-furred, wise beings who guard a prolific structure buried deep within the earth called the Labyrinth (which I created during my Psychology class, where we were dissecting a brain and I decided I wanted my dream plane to have a "brain", and noticed that the gyri looked like a labyrinth's corridors).
Anyways, long story short, most of my races were craving to be broken from the societal norms. I mean, humans are the same, but I wanted everything else to be different and more insubstantial and symbolic. My players weren't as thrilled as I was; they wanted to be able to play and Elf and assume they live in the woods, have pointy ears, and are good with bows. I was sick of that cliche, and wanted to carve out a new niche for them, and we were forced to compromise.
We talked it out, and agreed that something new was in order to liven up the standard "flavor" of the races, while somehow keeping with the traditional feel. I compare it to coloring outside the lines, and then drawing new lines in to encompass the colors.
Elves are still Elves, but they're also pretty different: they adapt to any environment they're placed within, to the point where their bodies change with them. An Elf who grew up in the mountains might have rough skin with flakes of mica in it, diamond-like fingernails and toenails, and coarse dark hair. An Elf from the woods might have bark-like skin with plant-like hair and deep green eyes. They like to dig small holes in the ground when the sleep so they can be entrenched within the earth. Elves like to be very aware of whats going on around them, and are brave to the point where others might consider them brash or foolish. The thing is, Elves like to sit back in drink in the situation, and then act heroically based on their careful thoughts. They're also good at it; an Elf party that's outnumbered might stay and fight, but they'll use the environment and whatever other advantages they can in their favor. Elves are still big into nature, have pointy ears, and live for long periods of time, but they are also very different.
Dwarves are merchants of secrets; they're still reclusive miners with beards and stubborn attitudes, but they mine for things called Memory Crystals (from the term "Crystallized Memory") which are the physical remnants of ancient memories. They keep secrets as a secondary form of currency within their society; if a Dwarf truly trusts you, he gives you a secret to keep as a token of his gratification. The Dwarves are also a splintered race in my world, thanks to a great war that shattered them across the world into their sinking strongholds of an ancient time when their kingdom stretched across the northern hemisphere.
Gnomes were once members of the treacherous Fey, and were once winged creatures, but have since fled that lifestyle for various reasons that I wont go into here. They seek to distance themselves from the Fey as much as possible, and have clipped their wings (all Gnomes have small stumps where their wings should be). They have turned towards tinkering and alchemy, and have a very 1900's feel to them (think Nikola Tesla, with top hats and out-of-this-world gizmos, very "The Prestige"-esq). They also live on giant floating chunks of earth that they lifted into the air long ago using special magnetics and other crazy incomprehensible articles of technology, and Gnomes have always sought to regain the ability to fly again. They refuse to go back to their old ways with the Fey, but have since used technology and steam engines to further their dreams.
I'm still working on Halflings and Orcs, and of course I have a handful of "new" races, like Minotaur and Forgotten.
My players are still able to recognize and Elf when they see it, but they're also very interested when they see one, too, and don't just shrug it off as "another Legolas clone".
Stuff
Very interesting...
StuffVery interesting...
Thank you!
This brings us to the audience participation part of this post. What do you all think? Am I changing too much? Should names be altered to protect the innocent?
Well, I think I'm going to give much the same answer as everyone else, but for different reasons.
I'd base what name you're giving them on how you want your players to react. The word "elf" comes with a long list of preconceptions, and it's absolutely fine to violate as many of them as you want, in fact, you can do some very interesting writing/adventure building based solely on the cognitive dissonance surrounding the aspects of "elfishness" that you're changing. So if you want people to go "Oh elves, but hey, that's different, I wonder why?" then call them elves.
On the other hand, it's just as valid to have a race that fits the majority of those elvish preconceptions, but call them something entirely different precisely because you don't want people making the instant connection. I had an all human campaign once where I wanted elves to be something mysterious and slightly terrifying, an elder power in the world that acted as subtle imperial rulers and judges over other races. I didn't want my players to immediately recognize them as elves though, because it would ruin the mystery surrounding them, so I divided them into tightly knit clans based on the specific deities they chose to worship and gave each clan a set of intrinsic spell-like abilities and a chosen mode of dress, then just used the clan names to refer to them instead of "elf."
Worked wonderfully, not one person connected "Jin'Ryeh" or "Jin'Hala" with elves, despite both being described as tall, thin, magical, and forest loving.