Duskblade (revisted)


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Just a suggestion on the spells, rather than open them up to all spells, which doesn't fit the flavor, write up rules on restrictions.

IE:

Spells: A duskblade has a limited selection of spells he may take. A duskblade may learn any evocation spell whose level is within his ability to cast. Beyond that, he may learn any touch ranged spell of a different school, as well as any spell of the type Ray. He may learn any spell with an elemental subtype associated with it. He may also learn any spell which directly increase or reduces an attribute. He may also learn any spell which dispels other magic. He may also learn any spell that allows line of sight teleportation, enhanced movement, negation of movement or teleport, or invisibilty or invisibility negation. He may also learn any spell which directly increases his attack checks.

Granted that's a bit convoluted, but it pretty much throws out most of the divination, illusion, necromancy and so forth. It gets him most of the spells on the original spell list, and for the ones that don't fall into the above, he's got other options now to make up for them. While it's convoluted, it also means future supplements automatically work for him if a spell falls into the categories above.

EDIT: Maybe a better way to do it would be via a list :

Spells: A duskblade has a limited selection of spells he may take. A duskblade may learn any spell which meets one or more of the following criteria whose level is within his ability to cast.


  • evocation spell
  • touch ranged spell
  • ray spell
  • spell with elemental subtype
  • directly increase or reduces an attribute
  • spell which dispels other magic
  • line of sight teleportation spells
  • enhanced movement spells
  • negation of movement or teleport spells
  • invisibilty or invisibility negation
  • spell which directly increases his attack checks


The duskblade changes I proposed died well over a month ago, and it was very apparent that people had varrying ideas on what should happen with it...some I agree with, some I don't.

Please let him (and this thread) lie back down and have eternal rest.


shalandar,

Would you mind stepping back in here to post a few times where you and I can *try* to meet and talk on this. I WANT to convert (and/or update, too) the Duskblade. I want to play a PF Duskblade.

We don't have to do it via the boards, though. We can work on it via an alternate method - Skype, messaging services like Yahoo, etc. (all are free).

Give me a few dates & times when we could use the boards (or alternate) and talk about working on this again.

I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks.

- V

(I'd PM you but this board does not have that feature...)


Personally, when I do a conversion I try to stay as close to the original class or Prestige Class as possible. For the Duskblade, here's what I've done so far...

Hit Die: d8. I kept it as suchs for the flavor and the fact that it's not designed to be a total tank and straight-up front line fighter.

BAB: Same as fighter, full progression.

Saves: Same as paladin, good Fort and Will; poor Reflex.

Skills: 2 + Int. modifier level- Acrobatics (because they had Jump and should've had Tumble), Climb, Knowledge (all taken individually), Linguistics, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim. I took out Ride to further justify the class gaining Acrobatics.

Spell Progression: I like what Shalandar did with the boosting of their spells to 6th level. However, giving them access to all Wizard/Sorcerer spells just isn't in the flavor of the class. When I get some more time, I'll come up with a complete spell list for the Duskblade that mirriors the previous one with some additions.

Class features: I kept them as they were, Arcane Channeling at 3rd level, Arcane Channeling (full-attack) at 13th level. Quick Cast at every 5 levels. They keep their armor/sheild bonuses and armored mage as well.

Dead Levels: The Duskblade has 6 dead levels. 8th, 9th, 12th, 14th, and 19th level. This is pretty much where I need some assistance in making the class better.
I've taken the liberty to add in the class feature Arcane Advancement. They receive this ability at 4th, 9th, 14th, and 19th level. When they choose a spell, it must be a wizard/sorcerer spell of the Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation school and of a level which they can already cast. This also doesn't count towards spells normally gained by advancement.
That leaves levels 8th, 12th, and 17th. Normally, I'd just throw in some Bonus Feat abilities but that just doesn't seem......Duskblade-ish. Any ideas?

Cap-stone: Many of the base classes in Pathfinder have some sort of ability that defines the class at level 20. Examples: The Druid gains the ability to use Wild Shape at-will, the Monk gains Pefect Self, and the Paladin gains Holy Champion. I believe the Duskblade should gain some unique ability or status at 20th level also. This should be a tempting offer so people don't stop playing at 13th level, as some have said earlier. Ideas would be great for this ability as well.

Shadow Lodge

Capstone...maybe the ability to channel two(2) spells at a time?


18DELTA wrote:

Capstone...maybe the ability to channel two(2) spells at a time?

I gave the Duskblade the ability at 10th level to, once per day, combine a 'Dispel Magic' effect on any attack.

At 20th level, I gave them an additional use per day, and boosted it to Greater Dispel Magic. My player was thrilled with it, the idea he can by just attacking dispel magic once per day was huge for him.

Shadow Lodge

I like that...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I think it would be neat to give it the Potent Critical ability as a capstone.

Potent Critical (Ex). At 20th level, whenever the duskblade scores a critical hit while using the Channel Spell ability, he automatically bypasses his target's spell resistance, if any. He also adds half his class level to the Save DC, if any, of the channeled spell.


I can't believe I'm revisiting this after what happened previously, but here are at least my comments on what you have stated....

Diffan wrote:


Spell Progression: I like what Shalandar did with the boosting of their spells to 6th level. However, giving them access to all Wizard/Sorcerer spells just isn't in the flavor of the class. When I get some more time, I'll come up with a complete spell list for the Duskblade that mirriors the previous one with some additions.

After having looked into this (mostly off this board), I can state the following:

  • Adding 6th level spells weren't necessary. It seemed like a good idea initially, but I was wrong. If you simply expand the list as I state below, it evens out what I was initially trying to do.
  • Giving them access to any arcane spell was also wrong, but...
  • In my opinion, they should be granted access to any spell that:
    Has a range of Personal, Touch, Ray, or Weapon
    Is from the school of Abjuration
    Increase ability scores

Diffan wrote:
Class features: I kept them as they were, Arcane Channeling at 3rd level, Arcane Channeling (full-attack) at 13th level. Quick Cast at every 5 levels. They keep their armor/sheild bonuses and armored mage as well.

I personally don't like just getting the full channel ability for free at 13th, but I've stated my reasoning many times before this. There is no need for me to rehash it again. I will only state one thing: Pathfinder has made a conscious effort to stop people from taking a class to level X and leaving. By granting this full ability at a specific level, in MY opinion, you are saying 'stay here until level 13, then take a prestige class that keeps increasing your spell casting'.

Diffan wrote:

Dead Levels: The Duskblade has 6 dead levels. 8th, 9th, 12th, 14th, and 19th level. This is pretty much where I need some assistance in making the class better.

I've taken the liberty to add in the class feature Arcane Advancement. They receive this ability at 4th, 9th, 14th, and 19th level. When they choose a spell, it must be a wizard/sorcerer spell of the Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation school and of a level which they can already cast. This also doesn't count towards spells normally gained by advancement.

Opening up any Conjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation spell could be quite dangerous, in my opinion. Take a look at all the spells that would be available from official 3.5 books and see if there are any you would would say "uh oh, that could be a problem".

Also make sure they won't be getting access to just too many known spells (easily). This can sometimes warp a character from good to "uh oh".
Diffan wrote:
That leaves levels 8th, 12th, and 17th. Normally, I'd just throw in some Bonus Feat abilities but that just doesn't seem......Duskblade-ish. Any ideas?

I've seen people throw around the Somantic Weaponry feat for additions.


Shalandar, one of my favorite PCs in the 3.5 era was a duskblade. Thanks for the update, you pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. Love the revisions, makes me want to play one fully to level 20 now!

Sorry if I'm aiding in thread necromancy here, but just had to give you a thumbs up.


shalandar wrote:

I can't believe I'm revisiting this after what happened previously, but here are at least my comments on what you have stated....

After having looked into this (mostly off this board), I can state the following:

  • Adding 6th level spells weren't necessary. It seemed like a good idea initially, but I was wrong. If you simply expand the list as I state below, it evens out what I was initially trying to do.
  • Giving them access to any arcane spell was also wrong, but...
  • In my opinion, they should be granted access to any spell that:
    Has a range of Personal, Touch, Ray, or Weapon
    Is from the school of Abjuration
    Increase ability scores

I felt the Duskblade should be more arcane-inclined like the Bard, thus up to 6th level spells. I think it's a good idea that plays well into the class and there are quite a few spells which make the class really shine.

shalandar wrote:


I personally don't like just getting the full channel ability for free at 13th, but I've stated my reasoning many times before this. There is no need for me to rehash it again. I will only state one thing: Pathfinder has made a conscious effort to stop people from taking a class to level X and leaving. By granting this full ability at a specific level, in MY opinion, you are saying 'stay here until level 13, then take a prestige class that keeps increasing your spell casting'.

This is the very same reason they created Cap-stones for those sort of classes. I can recall there never being a reason in 3.5 to take more than 4 or 5 levels of Paladin, 1 or 2 levels of Barbarian, and 1 level of Cleric. The fact that you have to invest 13 levels in a class shows that your at least mostly committed. Besides, I don't think that's the end-all/be-all of the class.

shalandar wrote:

Opening up any Conjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation spell could be quite dangerous, in my opinion. Take a look at all the spells that would be available from official 3.5 books and see if there are any you would would say "uh oh, that could be a problem".

Also make sure they won't be getting access to just too many known spells (easily). This can sometimes warp a character from good to "uh oh".

Honestly, I don't see a problem with that. Sure, there are spells that are good, powerful, or possibly broken. But that's not so much the problem with the class that uses them but the spell itself. If, as a DM, you think a spell could be used which would break your game, modify it so it doesn't happen. To me, it's pretty simple. That or just narrow the selection of schools to pick from, say....Abjuration, Conjuration, or Transmutation.

As for the other dead levels, putting in Bonus Feats or specific feats isn't a bad idea and it's a quick fix. I just figured there might be a better solution.


Diffan wrote:
I felt the Duskblade should be more arcane-inclined like the Bard, thus up to 6th level spells. I think it's a good idea that plays well into the class and there are quite a few spells which make the class really shine.

I won't argue with you. Obviously, I've had my own interpretation of what a Duskblade should be. If it is your class, your interpretation, then do with it how you will. I was simply adding my 2 cents since my name was involved in your original post.

Diffan wrote:
This is the very same reason they created Cap-stones for those sort of classes. I can recall there never being a reason in 3.5 to take more than 4 or 5 levels of Paladin, 1 or 2 levels of Barbarian, and 1 level of Cleric. The fact that you have to invest 13 levels in a class shows that your at least mostly committed. Besides, I don't think that's the end-all/be-all of the class.

While I love capstones (I think it may be the very best thing pathfinder added, amongst 100s of things I love that they changed), I personally still feel that the capstone would have to be insane to keep me going after level 13 in the original duskblade. Again, it's your class to do with how you want, cause it's your interpretation of the class.

Diffan wrote:
Honestly, I don't see a problem with that. Sure, there are spells that are good, powerful, or possibly broken. But that's not so much the problem with the class that uses them but the spell itself. If, as a DM, you think a spell could be used which would break your game, modify it so it doesn't happen. To me, it's pretty simple. That or just narrow the selection of schools to pick from, say....Abjuration, Conjuration, or Transmutation.

If you are going to say "let the DM deal with it" every time, then there is no point in posting something up on a board to ask others' opinions. Again, do what you want with the class, as this is your interpretation, but if your posting something up on a board, it is assumed you are trying to get others to sort of agree on it.


shalandar wrote:
While I love capstones (I think it may be the very best thing pathfinder added, amongst 100s of things I love that they changed), I personally still feel that the capstone would have to be insane to keep me going after level 13 in the original duskblade. Again, it's your class to do with how you want, cause it's your interpretation of the class.

I agree, the capstone should be pretty powerful and a lure to keep you in the class throughout most levels in play. And the thing is, I really don't see too many 3.5 prestige classes that really offer much in the way of boosting the duskblade's ablilities, save the Abjurant Champion (and we all know how many DMs feel about that one). Because you've gone to some great lengths to improve the class in your original post, I'm just trying to add in my 2-cents as well, so when someone wants to homebrew this, they have a variety of choices and opinions to draw upon. Our opinions differ on some issues, which is a good thing I believe, yet we both feel this is a great class to play and there are certainly additions people can add to make it better.

shalandar wrote:
If you are going to say "let the DM deal with it" every time, then there is no point in posting something up on a board to ask others' opinions. Again, do what you want with the class, as this is your interpretation, but if your posting something up on a board, it is assumed you are trying to get others to sort of agree on it.

I say it's a DM's choice only when it comes to specific spell selection because, frankly, it's a case-by-case subject which can't fall under a blanket clause or rule. Lets take the spell Wraithstrike from the Spell Compendium. We all know it's a completly broken spell and should at least be made 5th level or higher. That would be something a DM would rule on by either eliminating the spell completly or making is a higher level spell. But if your duskblade wanted to take say, Blades of Fire or Whirling Blade a DM would probably be willing to allow that. The fact that spells are so diverse and can be broken with such ease is the reason why it's a DM's call.

And quite honestly, it's always been up to the DM to start with. I know DMs that don't allow the Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, and even some Complete Books (Scoundrel, Champion, Mage). So when doing a homebrew class revision, I think a DM would be even more concerned and interested in making sure everythings legit.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Duskblade

BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude and Will
Hit Dice: 1d10

Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim.

Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Intelligence modifier

Duskblades are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, All Armor, and Shields (but not Tower Shields).

Duskblades use the spell casting progression from the PH2, with Int-based spells. He makes concentration checks using his Intelligence modifier.

LEVEL ABILITY
1. Arcane Attunement, Armored Mage (light)
2. Combat Casting
3. Channel Spell, Spell Power +1
4. Quick Cast 1/day,
5. Arcane Bond
6. Spell Power +2
7. Armored Mage (medium)
8. Quick Cast 2/day
9. Spell Power +3
10. Supernatural Spell 1/day
11. Channel Spell (full attack)
12. Quick Cast 3/day, Spell Power +4
13. Armored Mage (heavy shields)
14. Supernatural Spell 2/day
15. Spell Power +5
16. Quick Cast 4/day
17. Supernatural Spell 3/day
18. Spell Power +6
19. Armored Mage (heavy armor)
20. Quick Cast 5/day, Supernatural Spell 4/day, Supernatural Critical

Arcane Attunement (Sp). You can use the spell-like powers dancing lights, detect magic, fl are, ghost sound, and read magic a combined total of times per day equal to 3 + your Int modifier. These spell-like powers do not count against your total of spells known or spells per day.

Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster’s gestures, which can cause spells to fail if those spells have a somatic component. A duskblade’s limited focus and specialized training, however, allows you to avoid arcane spell failure so long as you stick to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavy armors, nor to heavy shields. This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different
spellcasting class.
At 7th level, you learn to use medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.
At 13th level, you learn to use a heavy shield with no chance of arcane spell failure.
At 19th level, you learn to use heavy armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.

Combat Casting: At 2nd level, you gain Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

Arcane Channeling (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time
of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

At 11th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.

Spell Power (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, you can more easily overcome the spell resistance of any opponent you successfully injure with a melee attack. If you have injured an opponent with a melee attack, you gain a +1 bonus on your caster level check to overcome spell resistance for the remainder of the encounter. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter.

Quick Cast: Beginning at 4th level, you can cast one spell each day as a swift action, so long as the casting time of the spell is 1 standard action or less. You can use this ability twice per day at 8th level, three times per day at 12th level, four times per day at 16th, five times per day at 20th
level.

Arcane Bond (Su). This is identical to the divine bond ability of the paladin, except the duskblade must choose the weapon option and is not limited to the listed weapon abilities, although he is limited to the level-based plus allotment.

Supernatural Spell (Su). Beginning at 10th level, the duskblade can choose to cast one of his spells as a supernatural effect once per day. A spell converted into a supernatural ability automatically bypasses spell resistance, does not provoke attacks of opportunities, requires no components, and has a Saving Throw DC of 10 + ½ the duskblade’s class level + his Intelligence modifier.
At 14th level, he can use Supernatural Spell twice a day. At 17th level he can use it 3 times a day. At 20th level he can use it 4 times a day.

Supernatural Critical (Su). At 20th level, when the duskblade scores a successful critical hit while using his Channel Spell ability, he can choose to convert it into a Supernatural Spell as an immediate free action. This use of a Supernatural Spell does not count against his daily allotment of them from his Supernatural Spell ability. Alternatively, if the duskblade scores a successful critical hit, he can cast any spell he knows as an immediate action as long as the opponent he scored the critical hit against is targeted by the spell or within its area of effect; this spell is automatically considered a Supernatural Spell and does not count against the duskblade’s daily allotment of Supernatural Spells.


SmiloDan wrote:
Arcane Bond (Su). This is identical to the divine bond ability of the paladin, except the duskblade must choose the weapon option and is not limited to the listed weapon abilities, although he is limited to the level-based plus allotment.

Giving one character the ability to cast arcane spells in armor without penalty (even up to heavy?!), the ability to quick cast these arcane spells on occasion, the ability to break through spell resistance easier (and then fully with Supernatural spell), AND the best ability a paladin has....isn't that a bit over powered?

You also lowered the level the duskblade gets full channel, from 13 to 11?

Out of curiosity, what would people think about something like this for arcane channel?
3rd level, standard action, channel spell as normal (when you would normally get it)
6th level, as part of a full attack action, channel a spell for up to 2 attacks (when he normally gets 2 attacks).
11th level, as part of a full attack action, channel a spell for up to 3 attacks (when he normally gets 3 attacks).
16th level, as part of a full attack action, channel a spell for up to 4 attacks (when he normally gets 4 attacks).

The only thing you are potentially "losing" here is some how being granted an extra attack (via say haste), but also keeps the whole progression reward thing that piazo is pushing.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

It's a tough class to balance AND have regular numerical advancements in power. I REALLY don't like sloppy or random progressions of advancements of a class ability. But that's just me.

I really like the duskblade having 5 levels of spells, but one of the consquences of that is their lower Save DCs. I thought Supernatural Spell was a neat way of handling that, plus it gave some other benefits.


SmiloDan wrote:

It's a tough class to balance AND have regular numerical advancements in power. I REALLY don't like sloppy or random progressions of advancements of a class ability. But that's just me.

I really like the duskblade having 5 levels of spells, but one of the consquences of that is their lower Save DCs. I thought Supernatural Spell was a neat way of handling that, plus it gave some other benefits.

It is a very tough class to balance and have numerical advancements, I completely agree.

I could probably even live with giving arcane channeling one spell as standard action, at first level, which would make the progression even with every additional attack per round.

The save DCs shouldn't be that big of a deal as MOST touch spells or ray spells don't have saving throws...

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