Hi everyone and greetings from Spain!!!
A player in my party has a monk PC and is very fond of movies like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".
He asked me about the possibility of making attacks in the middle of a jump, and jumping while tumbling in the same move.
For his first question I think that this is a kind of Spring Attack maneouver because jump is part of this movement, and he is taking a standard action between his movement.
But I have some doubts about the second one.
Using the Acrobatics fot tumbling halves your speed so your DC for using Acrobatics for jumping is increased. But I don't think of other effects in using the same skill both ways at the same time.I would like some opinions about this.
Thank you
You are right on both counts.
The first move is posible, but will require the Spring Attack feat.
Jumping while tumbling imposes a penalty on the jump check according to the modified movement, unless he takes the +10 DC increase for tumbling at full speed. In addition he would be required to make two separate checks, one for jump and one for tumble, with all pertinent penalties. Aside from that, there is no problem with his request.
...
You are right on both counts.
The first move is posible, but will require the Spring Attack feat.
Jumping while tumbling imposes a penalty on the jump check according to the modified movement, unless he takes the +10 DC increase for tumbling at full speed. In addition he would be required to make two separate checks, one for jump and one for tumble, with all pertinent penalties. Aside from that, there is no problem with his request.
Actually their would be no penalty to the jump use of Acrobatics. Jump is only modified up or down when the creatures "base speed" changes. Tumbling does not change the base speed of a creature even if they move slower do to Tumbling or difficult terrain. The base speed of the creature is still the same and that is what is used when calculating Jump.
Things like Armor changes a creatures base speed or barbarian's fast movement, but running through one square of difficult terrain or using tumble for one square only does not change a creatures base speed.
Hi everyone and greetings from Spain!!!
A player in my party has a monk PC and is very fond of movies like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon".
He asked me about the possibility of making attacks in the middle of a jump, and jumping while tumbling in the same move.
For his first question I think that this is a kind of Spring Attack maneouver because jump is part of this movement, and he is taking a standard action between his movement.
But I have some doubts about the second one.
Using the Acrobatics fot tumbling halves your speed so your DC for using Acrobatics for jumping is increased. But I don't think of other effects in using the same skill both ways at the same time.I would like some opinions about this.
Thank you
You are right on both counts.
The first move is posible, but will require the Spring Attack feat.
Jumping while tumbling imposes a penalty on the jump check according to the modified movement, unless he takes the +10 DC increase for tumbling at full speed. In addition he would be required to make two separate checks, one for jump and one for tumble, with all pertinent penalties. Aside from that, there is no problem with his request.
I agree it'd be as simple as making two checks and modifying each as per normal. Jumping is part of a movement... and so is tumbling. No problem combining them.
I agree with Kyrt-ryder on both accounts. It sounds like your player just wants to close distance while flying through the air and end that move in an attack. That would be a single acrobatics check to make the jump and then his attack roll, IMO. But if you use this rule, I would say there should be no benefits to damage or hit from his unique attacking style. If he wants benefits for a flying attack then he would have to take a feat such as the one suggested above by Kyrt-ryder, alternatively there are feats that I believe give bonuses for this type of attack in the Oriental Adventures book but it is 3.0 so some revision might be needed.
Spring Attack would only be needed if the player wished to move, attack, and then move. This would not be needed for a simple flying kick, which is one move and one attack. However, should he wish to jump at his enemy, kick them in mid air, and use the impact of the attack to jump away from that enemy, it would indeed require Spring Attack.
I think your players question about a tumble/jump could be answered, as stated above, by simply defining tumble. You are moving through an enemy’s threat zone in such a way that, though they may try, they cannot hit you; this does not sound like a boring maneuver to me. It is flipping, rolling, diving, and any number of other acrobatic maneuvers to dodge an opponent’s blow. That is why your movement is being reduced to half. The mechanic is already in place it is just a matter of flavoring it in such a way that it is more exciting than simply moving at half speed through the threatened zone.
There are circumstances that would require more than just a re-flavoring of the tumble skill use though. For instance: if your player wanted to jump over an obstacle while tumbling through a threatened zone (or similar situation). This would be two separate checks with the penalties for half movement speed added to the jump check.
*SNIP*Spring Attack would only be needed if the player wished to move, attack, and then move. This would not be needed for a simple flying kick, which is one move and one attack. However, should he wish to jump at his enemy, kick them in mid air, and use the impact of the attack to jump away from that enemy, it would indeed require Spring Attack.
*SNIP*
And when I read this I immediately had thoughts of a certain plumber jumping on his enemies heads and then moving on.
Granted... for the purpose of a acrobatics check to high jump high enough to do this would require some impressive acrobatics skill. (DC 24 for a 6 ft. opponent) Yet, I could see a monk using ki making a spring attack like this. Jump in > double heel stomp his opponents head > jump off and away.
And when I read this I immediately had thoughts of a certain plumber jumping on his enemies heads and then moving on.
Not exactly the vision I had in mind but yes, that would most certainly apply - lol.
Granted... for the purpose of a acrobatics check to high jump high enough to do this would require some impressive acrobatics skill. (DC 24 for a 6 ft. opponent) Yet, I could see a monk using ki making a spring attack like this. Jump in > double heel stomp his opponents head > jump off and away.
Those were my thoughts exactly, or at least along the same lines. It would be difficult but it’s certainly not impossible for a well trained monk, or anyone with a lot of points in Acrobatics.
And when I read this I immediately had thoughts of a certain plumber jumping on his enemies heads and then moving on.Not exactly the vision I had in mind but yes, that would most certainly apply - lol.
Granted... for the purpose of a acrobatics check to high jump high enough to do this would require some impressive acrobatics skill. (DC 24 for a 6 ft. opponent) Yet, I could see a monk using ki making a spring attack like this. Jump in > double heel stomp his opponents head > jump off and away.Those were my thoughts exactly, or at least along the same lines. It would be difficult but it’s certainly not impossible for a well trained monk, or anyone with a lot of points in Acrobatics.
Though a 5th level monk does have a slight advantage in that he can spend ki points to get a +20 on that acrobatics check. Yeah...
Love the flavor of this though. There were several maneuvers in the Bo9S that allowed for tumbling and jumping such as this.
...
You are right on both counts.
The first move is posible, but will require the Spring Attack feat.
Jumping while tumbling imposes a penalty on the jump check according to the modified movement, unless he takes the +10 DC increase for tumbling at full speed. In addition he would be required to make two separate checks, one for jump and one for tumble, with all pertinent penalties. Aside from that, there is no problem with his request.
Actually their would be no penalty to the jump use of Acrobatics. Jump is only modified up or down when the creatures "base speed" changes. Tumbling does not change the base speed of a creature even if they move slower do to Tumbling or difficult terrain. The base speed of the creature is still the same and that is what is used when calculating Jump.
Things like Armor changes a creatures base speed or barbarian's fast movement, but running through one square of difficult terrain or using tumble for one square only does not change a creatures base speed.
True.
Having to roll double as high on jump checks to compensate for the movement reduction when tumbling is severe enough.
I.e. tumbling reduces your speed by half, so if you make a 20' long jump. Tumbling should cap it at half move (15' for a 1st lvl monk).
In this situation many characters would probably try to "speed tumble" as soon as they have a reasonable chance of success.
Actually their would be no penalty to the jump use of Acrobatics. Jump is only modified up or down when the creatures "base speed" changes. Tumbling does not change the base speed of a creature even if they move slower do to Tumbling or difficult terrain. The base speed of the creature is still the same and that is what is used when calculating Jump.
Things like Armor changes a creature’s base speed or barbarian's fast movement, but running through one square of difficult terrain or using tumble for one square only does not change a creatures base speed.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by this. That is not what the Acrobatics skill says.
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet.
A creatures base land speed is set by his/her race and does not change. A creature's speed can be modified by many things: haste, armor, and yes tumbling. Therefore if a creature with a base land speed of 30' was under the haste effect and his current speed is 60' he would get a +12 to Acrobatics checks for jumping. Then if he attempted to jump while tumbling his speed would again be 30 and he would recieve no bonus.
...
A creatures base land speed is set by his/her race and does not change. A creature's speed can be modified by many things: haste, armor, and yes tumbling. Therefore if a creature with a base land speed of 30' was under the haste effect and his current speed is 60' he would get a +12 to Acrobatics checks for jumping. Then if he attempted to jump while tumbling his speed would again be 30 and he would recieve no bonus.
Your right with everything except the tumbling part. If a creature tumbles just one square it means he used 10ft to move that square, but his base speed did not change. If under haste his base speed is 60ft, but walking across difficult terrain that costs him 10ft of movement does not mean that his base speed is now 50ft. His base speed is still 60ft, but he used up 10ft to move.
Tumbling simply makes each square you tumble in count as double or 10ft. You can tumble only one square and then move normally the rest of the time. Once you start to tumble you are not forced to tumble the rest of the round.
Which is why you simply don't change the base speed of the creature when tumbling. So why under hast a character gets +12 to jump even when tumbling or walking across difficult terrain even if the character actually only moved 30ft he still had a base speed of 60ft.
The only negative tumbling would normally cause is its harder for the character to move the 10ft(2 squares) before making the jump. If he didn't manage to do that then the DC for the jump is doubled. In 3.5 it was 20ft, but PFRPG makes it way easier at 10ft.
For rules I reference the 3.5 FAQ
When a character tumbles (at half speed) during a move action, does that mean he is moving at half speed for the whole move, or just in the squares where tumbling?
Although it’s easiest to apply the half-speed penalty to the entire move action, it’s not strictly necessary to do so. If the player and DM can handle this additional level of complexity, it’s perfectly okay to rule that you pay an extra movement cost only for each square that you use Tumble to exit without provoking an attack of opportunity (as well as for each square of an enemy’s space that you enter using Tumble).
I see what you are saying now. You're use of the term base speed confused me because the only time that term is ever used in reference to speed is the "base speed" determined by a creature's race.
As for this:
For rules I reference the 3.5 FAQ
D&D FAQ v.3.5 36 Update Version: 6/30/08 wrote:
When a character tumbles (at half speed) during a move action, does that mean he is moving at half speed for the whole move, or just in the squares where tumbling?
Although it’s easiest to apply the half-speed penalty to the entire move action, it’s not strictly necessary to do so. If the player and DM can handle this additional level of complexity, it’s perfectly okay to rule that you pay an extra movement cost only for each square that you use Tumble to exit without provoking an attack of opportunity (as well as for each square of an enemy’s space that you enter using Tumble).
It never argues the point that the RAW says you move at half speed. It just says if the player/DM can handle the increase of complexity they can calculate it another way. If they calculated it in this way, you would indeed be absolutely correct, it does not change the speed of the character, only forces him to pay a speed penalty for each 5 feet.
However the PF PRD does in fact say:
When moving in this way, you move at half speed.
So strictly by RAW it does affect the character's speed, however, as you could handle the calculation in either manner, and the RAI does seem to be in line with the way you explain it, I would agree that Tumble should not necessarily affect the Jump, as long as they move the 10 feet to avoid the penalty.
Those rules are, alas, not clearly worded. If your land speed increases or decreases, even temporarily, you get the +4 or –4 penalty to the Acrobatics check made to jump, as long as the jump's made during the increased or decreased speed.
Thank you.
Thus, you can make the jump at the full speed, as long as you tumble after the jump check is made. While the tumble lasts all movement costs are doubled, which might stop the jump short.
E.g.
- My character is moving down a 10' high, 5' wide corridor blocked by a dwarf warrior, which I want to avoid.
- My character; a monk with 40' speed wants to bypass the dwarf without harming it.
- My charecter makes a running jump. Moving 10' and jumping just outside the dwarf's reach (at 10' distance). This is done to avoid rolling the jump with the -15' speed reduction from tumbling.
- The jump check allows me to move 30' and clear the 4½' dwarf, with ease.
- After traveling the first 5' of the jump (I have now spent a total of 15' moving) I start to tumble in order to avoid AoO for the next 15' I move. Whether I make the DC at this time is unimportant, as far as movement cost is concerned.
- After tumbling 15' (I have actually spent 30' movement cost due to the tumble).
- At this point the maneuver has cost me 45' of movement and my jump ends not after not 40' as rolled, but after only 15' (equivalent to 25'), forcing me to land exactly behind the dwarf, at which point I make a tumble outside of his reach.
- At this point I can just move on since I have started a full move in order to make the manuever (spending 45' just to bypass the dwarf).
...
I wish I could draw a diagram.
--------------------------
[m][][][][d][][][][][][][]
--------------------------
Monk is 20' from the dwarf, in a narrow corridor.
...
--------------------------
[][][m][][d][][][][][][][]
--------------------------
Monk approaches 10' and rolls a 30' jump (TOTAL MOVEMENT COST 10')
...
--------------------------
[][][][m][d][][][][][][][]
--------------------------
Monk travels 5' in the air before initiating the tumble (TOTAL MOVEMENT COST 15'; TOTAL DISTANCE JUMPED 5')
...
--------------------------
[][][][][d][m][][][][][][]
--------------------------
Monk tumbles 10' through the air, spending 20' movement, because he tumbles at normal speed (TOTAL MOVEMENT COST 35'; TOTAL DISTANCE JUMPED 25').
...
--------------------------
[][][][][d][][m][][][][][]
--------------------------
Moving outside the dwarves reach with a tumble will cost 10' of movement. Since it would exceed his jump check (30')he is forced to land behind the dwarf, and must move the next 5' away from the jump, tumbling on the ground (TOTAL MOVEMENT COST 45'; TOTAL DISTANCE JUMPED 25').
At this point the monk has exceeded his speed value and must spend his next standard action moving in order to complete the move.
I think the rules are clear enough, but the actual execution of the mixed Acrobatics can get a bit convoluted.
The GM must keep the sequence of actions well in mind and has to keep track of moved distance and jumped distance seaparately as well as the characters movement speed and jump check results.
EDIT: this would have been much easier to illustrate with minies :D
I like your diagram.
I like the explanation too, I would never have thought of starting the Tumber after you make the Jump check.
Those rules are, alas, not clearly worded. If your land speed increases or decreases, even temporarily, you get the +4 or –4 penalty to the Acrobatics check made to jump, as long as the jump's made during the increased or decreased speed.
Indeed, thank you.
and the RAI does seem to be in line with the way you explain it,
What does RAI mean? I have seen it now in a few threads and I thought it was a mistype for RAW, but it comes up too often for that. So why I understand RAW and CORE I am not getting RAI.
Thanks
and the RAI does seem to be in line with the way you explain it,
What does RAI mean? I have seen it now in a few threads and I thought it was a mistype for RAW, but it comes up too often for that. So why I understand RAW and CORE I am not getting RAI.
Thanks
Rules As Interpreted... perhaps?
RAW = Rules As Written
RAI = Rules As Intended
RAW = Rules As Written
RAI = Rules As Intended
So close.
I had to Google it the other day or I wouldn't have known either.