Where are the other Sorcerer PrC's?

[kyrt-ryder]

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

The PrC in question advances animal companion and familiar and makes it a single creature. It allows you to cast arcane spells in druid armor with no spell failure, and finally it advances wild shape if you have the ability (if I understand the wording right, I know it advances if you already have wild shape I'm not sure beyond that since the wording is odd). It gets some other features that are really nice but truthfully of higher value than the MT gets and it normally also gets 4+Int skill points and medium BAB. We specifically reduced both of those to Poor BAB and 2+Int skill points to help it match the MT more.

Wow... how many caster levels lost? sounds pretty wild.

The same 3 levels on each side as a Mystic Theurge. Once actually inside the PrC you don't lose any.

[A Man In Black]

Rathendar wrote:

Is there a reason someone who is not you cannot be fond of spells you are not?

We were discussion optimization, not shininess. He can like them all he cares to, but sacrificing 9th level spells in order to be able to cast (for example) Mordenkainen's Sword is not optimal, when Mordenkainen's Sword is so weak that it is a loss of effectiveness for a sorcerer/wizard to even learn it.

Many of the spells he listed were either much weaker than same- or lower-level staples in the same role, grossly ineffective schticks for a spell of that level, or trivially replicated (in role if not exact details) by spells from the opposite spell list.

If he likes them, fine, but his affection doesn't make them stronger.

[dulsin]

If every character was pulled from the optimization boards then there would be no bards.

I play to have fun. I guess you guys play for other reasons.

[Abraham spalding]

dulsin wrote:

If every character was pulled from the optimization boards then there would be no bards.

I play to have fun. I guess you guys play for other reasons.

Duslin this is an absolutely stupid statement, inflammatory and ignorant besides.

If they have fun figuring out the numbers and what is "the best" then they play for the exact same reason you do, they simply have fun in a different way.

"There's no wrong way to play D&D."

[dulsin]

Wow nothing inflammatory ever gets posted here. My bad.

[Seabyrn]

A Man In Black wrote:

If there was a third-level sorc/wiz spell that made ninjas pop out and kick everyone in a 20' spread in the face for d4 damage a caster level, people would be perfectly justified in saying Ninja Face Kick is a weak spell compared to Fireball. People are also perfectly justified in liking it, but it doesn't bear on a discussion about optimization in a game balance sense.

I am so adding this to my personal spell compendium! I love it!

Just one question - do the ninjas disappear after their face kick, or do they stick around for a bit to intimidate their target - or would that be the maximized version?

(my next DM will never see this coming! heh heh heh)

[A Man In Black]

dulsin wrote:

If every character was pulled from the optimization boards then there would be no bards.

It's perfectly reasonable to play a less-than-optimal character, as D&D is vastly more than a tactical wargame. However, when someone makes a factual claim about the tactical wargame bit (to wit: "In fact, with only 3 levels of spellcasting gone, [Dragon Disciple] is arguably the best choice for the sorcerer") then it's time to set aside what's cool and look at what is strongest in order to discuss what is the optimal choice.

In fact, optimization becomes more important when you want to make an inherently weaker character; it becomes more of a strain on the group and the GM to allow you to meaningfully participate when you're weakened yourself greatly for concept reasons, and some judicious optimization can reduce that strain.

[kyrt-ryder]

dulsin wrote:

If every character was pulled from the optimization boards then there would be no bards.

I know I'm responding to this out of context but..... for the record, bards happen to be pretty popular char-op material. The chassis is pretty weak, but put the right features together and you can come up with a pretty kick-butt character. It's turning the bard from that weak base into something impressive that's an interesting challenge.

I myself am rather a fan of the melee style bard myself, but in 3.5 with the right material on hand you could go archer, full caster, song-caster, ultra-buffer, diplomancer whatever suited your fancy. The more material allowed, the more the bard really does become the flaunted jack of all trades, capable of being turned into nearly any combat contributor desired.

[dulsin]

A Man In Black wrote:

However, when someone makes a factual claim about the tactical wargame bit (to wit: "In fact, with only 3 levels of spellcasting gone, [Dragon Disciple] is arguably the best choice for the sorcerer")

I have already said that the last 2 levels of DD are probably best not taken. The DD class is very attractive because of how much you get with it and how little you give up.

The Sorcerer class has become so nice that I would normally advise players not to leave. With all of the special abilities, bonus feats, and extra spells the base class gives there is very little reason to leave.

The DD class is unique among all other PRCs in that it continues to progress spell casting at nearly full rate and it also prgresses all other class abilities AND it gives some extra abilities that are fun and provide better survivability for the character.

People call all the stat bonuses useless but my players consider any change to their base stats more valuable than any magic item even if it is not the core ability.

I know the edritch Knight, Sorcerer, with a paladin dip is incredibly powerful but not everyone is willing to play a paladin. In my games the restriction on paladin behavior can be a real drag on the player who wants to Pillage, Burn, and R****. Or is that Burn, R***, Pillage?

In light of this discussion I will tell my player that is planning on going into DD that she should avoid the last two levels but I doubt it will bother her. She just goes all sparkly eyes thinking of sprouting wings and breathing fire.

[Quandary]

For an Eldritch Knight, I would be heavily inclined to use Wizard as the base Class, as the faster Spell Level progression signifigantly impacts your Casting Power - You're not going to compete with Full Casters, but it makes a difference. It's no longer sharing the same Caster Stat, but if you aren't targeting enemies with Spells allowing Saves, you only need an INT high enough to Cast your Max Spell Level.

Anyhow, here's a 20th level Sorceror/Barbarian/DragonDisciple build I mocked up.
It doesn't have ANY Equipment (besides a non-magical Falchion), and all of the stats are without Buffs (Except +2 to CHA, since that's needed to Cast 3rd Level Spells, I figured you'd SOMEHOW increase it by that much). Modified Stats from Rage are indicated in (Parentheses). Basically all the Spells are either Buffs or No-Save Spells like Vampiric Touch and Scorching Ray. If you didn't care about Greater Rage (+6 vs. +4) you could take a level of Fighter instead for an extra Feat, or even Monk (which would net +3 Feats & +2 to all Saves, but couldn't take Stunning Critical (17 BAB Pre-Req) - Actually, that makes me think some sort of Monk/Oracle/DivineWuXia(~DD) build could work great...
20th level is crazy of course, but DD actually gives a solid bonus at all levels.

Spoiler:

20th level

Sorc 1/ Barb 11/ DD 8 (Gold Dragon Bloodline)

STR 24/ DEX 16/ CON 18/ INT 12/ WIS 12/ CHA 16 PFS Point Buy(20) + Level Bumps + Class Abilities + Misc. +2CHA
STR 30/ DEX 16/ CON 24/ INT 12/ WIS 12/ CHA 16 Rage

Blindsense 30', Dragon Form: Darkvision 60'
Move 40' (ExpRetreat: 70'), Dragon Form: Fly 60', Swim 60'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fort +14(17)/ Ref +10/ Will +13(16)
+3 Reflex vs. Traps, Re-roll Will 1/Rage

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
222 HP +60 Rage HP (Dragon Form: +40 HP)
DR/2-, Resist 10: Fire (20 Dragon Form)
Imp Uncanny Dodge: never flat-footed or flanked

10 +5(NaturalA) +4(MageA) +4(Shield) +3(DEX)
Armor Class = 26(24) AC TouchAC = 13(11) -1 if Large
Dragon Form = 28(26) AC +Bracers/Deflect?

Resist Energy: Resist 20 (any), Mirror Image (1d4+2 images)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----
Maneuvers: CMB: +24(27) CMD: 37(40) +1 if Large
(Dragon Form CMB: +26(29) CMD: 39(41) +2 Grapple

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----
Attacks: +17 BAB (+17/+12/+7/+2) STR Bonus: +7 (+10 Rage)
Power Attack: -4 att/ +12 dmg(2H/Primary), +8 dmg(1H), +4 dmg(oH/2ndary)
Crit Focus: +4 Confirm Crits, Enlarge Person: -1 Attacks

2-Handed Falchion
attack: +24(27)/+19(22)/+14(17)/+9(12) Crit: 15+
damage: 2d4 +10(15) (2d6 large)

Bite/Claw/Claw (usable 5/day, count @Magic vs. DR)
attack: +24(27)/ 2x(+19(22))
damage: 1d6 +10(15) +1d6 fire/ 2x(1d6 +3(5)) (1d8 large)

Dragon Form 1 (1/day, 8min duration)
Bite/Claw/Claw/Wing/Wing (Bites & Claws count @ Magic vs. DR)
attack: +26(29)/ 2x(+21(24))/ 2x(+21(24)
damage: 1d8 +13(18) +1d6 fire/ 2x(1d6 +4(6))/ 2x(1d4 +4(6)) (2d6/ 1d8/ 1d6 large)

Scorching Ray (Ranged Touch, 45' Range, up to 7/day)
attack: 2x(+20) damage: 2x(4d6+4 fire)

Vampiric Touch (up to 5/day)
attack: +24(27) damage: 4d6 (gained as Temp HPs)

(2/day) Bloodline Breath Weapon:
30' Cone (Fire): 9d9+9 damage (Reflex DC 17 for Half)

(1/day) Dragon Form Breath Weapon:
30' Cone (Fire): 6d8+6 damage (Reflex DC 19 for Half)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rage Rounds: 28
Greater Rage (+6 STR/ +6 CON, +3 Will, -2 AC)
5 Rage Powers:
Knockback (add Bullrush to attack) 1/rnd
Strength Surge (+11 to STR check/CMB/CMD) immediate 1/rage
{ Clear Mind? / Roused Anger?/ ??? }
8+ Clear Mind (Re-roll Will Save) 1/rage
8+ Unexpected Strike (AoO on Threat Entry) 1/rage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Natural Armor +5 (+3 DD (stack)/ +2 BL )
Strength +4
Con +2
Int +2
Blindsense 30'
Dragon Form 1, 1/day (8 minutes)
28(34)STR/ 22(28)CON: +40 HP, +7 NA(w/DD), fly 60'(poor), swim 60',
darkvision 60', breathweapon (6d6? +6 Energy Affinity?), Resist Fire 20

Bloodline Powers @ 9th level
Natural Armor +2
Energy Affinity(Fire): +1 Damage/Dice
Resist Fire 10
Breath Weapon (9d6, 2/day, +9dmg Fire Affinity?)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------
Spells @ Sorceror Level 6 (Caster Level 8 w/ Trait)
0th (-) 7 Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Read Magic, Resistance/Prestidig
1st (7/day) 4 TrueStrike, EnlargeP, ExpRetreat, Shield, Mage Armor(BL)
2nd (6/day) 2 ScorchRay, MirrorImage, Resist Energy(BL)
3rd (4/day) 1 VampiricTouch, Fly(BL)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------
94 Skill Ranks (+11 Favored: Barbarian)
Perception 20r = +25
Acrobatics 20r = +27 (+31 Jump) (+3AC Fight Defensively/ +6 Total Defense)
Climb 1r = +11/+14
Swim 1r = +11/+14
Linguistics 1r = +5 (Draconic)
Fly 20r = +23 wings/ +31 fly spell (-2 Large Size)
Survival 1r = +5
Know(Arcana) 10r = +14
UMD 20r = +26

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
Feats: 10 + 1 Human + Eschew Sorc + 2 BL = 14
Eschew Components
Blind-Fight
Power Attack
Cleave
Lunge
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO's)
Iron Will
Imp Unarmed
Imp Grapple
Flyby Attack
Improved Crit:Falchion
Crit Focus
Staggering Crit
Stunning Crit

[A Man In Black]

Quote:

I know the edritch Knight, Sorcerer, with a paladin dip is incredibly powerful but not everyone is willing to play a paladin. In my games the restriction on paladin behavior can be a real drag on the player who wants to Pillage, Burn, and R****. Or is that Burn, R***, Pillage?

Depends on what you're into, I guess.

dulsin wrote:

People call all the stat bonuses useless but my players consider any change to their base stats more valuable than any magic item even if it is not the core ability.

In light of this discussion I will tell my player that is planning on going into DD that she should avoid the last two levels but I doubt it will bother her. She just goes all sparkly eyes thinking of sprouting wings and breathing fire.

In which case, you've got player(s) who enjoy the class specifically on its merits. Ninja Face Kick is great if adding ninjas automatically increases your entertainment, but this is different from being the unqualified "best choice".

[Dennis da Ogre]

A Man In Black wrote:

If there was a third-level sorc/wiz spell that made ninjas pop out and kick everyone in a 20' spread in the face for d4 damage a caster level, people would be perfectly justified in saying Ninja Face Kick is a weak spell compared to Fireball. People are also perfectly justified in liking it, but it doesn't bear on a discussion about optimization in a game balance sense.

Now hold on, don't discard this idea out of hand. Is there a save for this Face Kick Spell? What about SR? I could see some serious advantages to this spell versus fireball.

I mean it would probably be a conjuration spell (you summon actual ninjas who were hanging out on the plane of cheese) so likely no SR, in that case a very good spell against the right opponents. Likewise, if the ninjas make attack rolls instead of reflex saves it would be better against targets with improved evasion. Also, ninja kicks don't have to deal with energy resistance which is quite handy on occasion.

Maybe not a front tier spell but something to keep in your holster for the right occasion.

[ZappoHisbane]

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Maybe not a front tier spell but something to keep in your holster for the right occasion.

But if you're a sorcerer with a limited selection of spells, which are you going to pick? Fireball or Ninja Face Kick? :)

[Dennis da Ogre]

ZappoHisbane wrote:

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Maybe not a front tier spell but something to keep in your holster for the right occasion.

But if you're a sorcerer with a limited selection of spells, which are you going to pick? Fireball or Ninja Face Kick? :)

Well I'm likely playing a Ninja Bloodline Sorcerer so since Ninja Face Kick is my 3rd level bonus spell...

If I were an elemental or draconic sorcerer then fireball would likely work better with my bloodline ability so I'll go with fireball and get a wand of Ninja Face Kick until I'm high enough level to get afford a Staff of Ninja Power (Summon Ninja II, Summon Ninja IV, Ninja Face Kick, and Ninja Storm).

[ZappoHisbane]

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Well I'm likely playing a Ninja Bloodline Sorcerer so since Ninja Face Kick is my 3rd level bonus spell...

... Ok, I so need for someone to come up with a full Ninja Bloodline now. :D

[Dennis da Ogre]

First level at will ability is summon shuriken

Third level power is "I disappear" (works like invisibility but it's cast as a swift action and duration is until the end of your turn)

...