|
From what I have read when skimming this thread, it seems to have devolved from talking about other sorcerer PrCs to go with bloodlines other than draconic to "Here's why I think the Dragon Disciple sucks campared to a sorcerer of the same level..."
Personally? I like that.
Give me a bit and I'll make a 20th level Draconic(Gold) Sorcerer and a Draconic(Gold) Sorcerer10/DD10 built with the same ability scores. With both represented as stat blocks, we can see the mechanical differences. If others want to make the stats, please do, different veiw points are welcome.
I played just that: a Sor/Cle/MyTh, and I never ran out of things to do. How interesting our experiences differ so widely...
Never said they lacked for things to do; they have plenty of those. I said they lacked for effective things to do. I suspect there was already a 4-person party, not including you, who were largely carrying your weight without you necessarily acknowledging that that was occurring.
Actually, it was a ranger and a rogue who was traveling with me. 3p party.
And were you playing level-appropriate adventures, or ones 2-3 levels below par? A cleric 3/sorcerer 4/mystic theurge 1 does just fine in adventures written for 5th level characters.
Give me a bit and I'll make a 20th level Draconic(Gold) Sorcerer and a Draconic(Gold) Sorcerer10/DD10 built with the same ability scores. With both represented as stat blocks, we can see the mechanical differences. If others want to make the stats, please do, different veiw points are welcome.
I'd REALLY not be interested in seeing such a build statted out.
Everybody's saying DD is weak as a Full Caster because of the loss/delay of Spell Levels, which is as core to Full Caster power as BAB is to Fighter types.Instead of running a Draconic Sorceror vs. Sorc10/DD10 competition for the Spontaneous Full Caster role (Draconic Full Caster is already 100% covered thematically/mechanically via Draconic BL Sorceror), why don't you stat up the types of builds I and others have mentioned, e.g. Sorc1/DD7/Barb12 or Sorc1/DD7/Fight12? If one isn't irrationally set on making ANOTHER Draconic Spontaneous Full Caster, there's no reason to take more than 1 Sorceror level as all it's Class Abilities besides Full Caster progression accrue to the DD. A more interesting comparison would be Src1/DD7/Barb12 vs. Src1/Barb16/Ftr3 or some such.
|
|
I'd REALLY not be interested in seeing such a build statted out.
Everybody's saying DD is weak as a Full Caster because of the loss/delay of Spell Levels, which is as core to Full Caster power as BAB is to Fighter types.Instead of running a Draconic Sorceror vs. Sorc10/DD10 competition for the Spontaneous Full Caster role (Draconic Full Caster is already 100% covered thematically/mechanically via Draconic BL Sorceror), why don't you stat up the types of builds I and others have mentioned, e.g. Sorc1/DD7/Barb12 or Sorc1/DD7/Fight12?[
On it.
Actually, comparing vs. some sort of Eldritch Knight build would be even more relevant.
Maybe a 3-way between a DD build, an EK build, and a Sorc|Wiz 1/ Fight|Barb 19 would be ideal.
EK vs. DD basically comes down to EK's access to certain Fighter Feats (Grt Wpn Spec/Focus, Disruptive/Spellbreaker, Crit Mastery) and EK's Spell Critical ability vs. DD's Stat Bonuses, Blindsense and other tangential abilities/resistances. Since Spell Critical is a Swift Action, EK probably wouldn't work well with a heavy Barbarian build, whose best Powers tend to use Swift/Immediate Actions, while DD/Barb works fine.
You keep changing your mind.
Please make the stat blocks instead of me, so I don't have to redo stuff.
Sorry, I've gotta go work soon... :-)
(any of those melee-focused builds would be more valuable than comparing a Sorc10/DD10 to Sorc20 IMHO)|
|
You keep changing your mind.
Please make the stat blocks instead of me, so I don't have to redo stuff.Sorry, I've gotta go work soon... :-)
(any of those melee-focused builds would be more valuable than comparing a Sorc10/DD10 to Sorc20 IMHO)
Human Paladin9/Draconic Sorc1/DD10
vs
Human Paladin4/Draconic Sorc6/EK10
Will that work?
I really gotta go work soon :-),
The Paladin build could be completely "viable" (+CHA to Saves @2nd lvl synergizes w/ CHA Casting)
but I'd say focus on Fighter/EK since EK's big deal is stacking for Fighter-only Feat pre-req's.
If you want to throw in 2 Paladin levels that would be reasonable and realistic, but sticking with straight DD/Barb and Fighter/EK builds might be simpler to figure out. You said you wanted to stat out a comparison, but I'm not trying to wear you out or anything :-)
|
I currently play a gnome sorcerer/dragon disciple in the module Vault of Souls that is working out well. He uses melee and magic, with a splash of Dazzling Display with his quarterstaff. All these folks are going into power gamer mode when these games are all about fun and flavor! I took the trait Magical Knack which boosts CL of sorcerer by 2 which keep his magical power up to par with an equal level sorcerer until 9th level DD. He has a very high Intimidate so he can burst a 30' radius demoralization to help out the fighters before he wades in with magic and claws(depending on the situation and need). No need to get all uptight about comparing classes. Just have fun!
Gnomes and Kobolds rule!
|
|
Okay.
I am going to make two PFRPG builds with Draconic BL Sorcerer. No traits, 3,000gp(for simplicity). I will pick the spells/feats/skills that I would pick if I were making the character for actual game play. If you do not like what I chose, make a stat block yourself!
Sorcerer1/Barbarian9/Dragon Disciple10
vs.
Sorcerer6/Fighter4/Eldritch Knight 10
They might be done by tomorrow.
I didn't say that he was "useless" or "worthless." Those are words that you chose to use that I didn't think were accurate to what I saw. I like to think that I'm reasonably willing to interact with challenges to my arguments, but I'm not going to bother if you are going to respond with hyperbole that misrepresents what I said.My bad. That was someone else, and I was too lazy to reply to each person.
Now, you DID say he was weaker, overall. That is where I question why, using the MyThe as an example. They certainly have all the weaknesses you describe, but make do just fine. Why would the DD fare so much worse?
Thank you.
I would say that he fared similarly to the Mystic Theurges that I've seen.
While that highest level spell is not all of a spellcaster's power, I would have to say that it is a significant chunk of it. I would suggest that drop pushed the Dragon Disciples spellcasting power from great, down to above average. But his melee power was increased as well from poor, up to average. He went from being great at his focus, to being average in two focuses. He did reasonably well at what he set up his character to do, he could sling spells, then buff himself before jumping into combat. He did it better than anyone else in the party, who had either focused on melee combat, spellcasting, or whatever. But, he did trade power for versatility, and while he was certainly capable of both, he was a worse spellcasting than the party's Sorcerer, and his melee abilities were still not nearly a match for the party's Fighter.
From what I've seen, the Mystic Theurge is similar. Despite it increasing both classes, the cost of entering is a significant drop in power from where a single classed spellcaster stands in trade for a greater variety of spells. And while versatility is nice, it is easier to make up for lack of versatility with more power, than it is to make up for lack of power with more versatility, especially in a team environment where each character has others to work with.
That was my impressions from the Dragon Disciple and the bit of the Mystic Theurge I've seen.
Because, let's face it, a cleric 3/sorc 4/myth 1, for example, is in fact nothing but a 4th level sorcerer with a cleric cohort who get only one action per round between them. And yet he's participating in adventures for 8th level characters!
(And looking at a cleric 3/sorcerer 4/mystic theurge 10 is meaningless, because no mystic theurge can survive until 10th level without a small army of well-constructed characters who do nothing but protect him.)
So here is a serious question. If the MyTh paid for his 2 of his 3 caster levels in one class over the 10 levels of the class instead of all at once would it still be seriously lamed it's entire life?
Maybe the class would start as Cleric 5/ Sorcerer 1 then not advance as a cleric at 3rd, and 8th levels. It would mean one class would always be much more powerful than the other but it would eliminate the 3-6 levels of complete worthlessness at the beginning of the class.
Maybe that just delays the worthlessness a few levels? Curious what you think.
I'm doing a modified Arcane Hierophant for our LoF campaign and that's pretty much what I did Dennis.
I took Druid first, sorcerer second, Druid third-fifth and now I'm finishing up with the sorcerer levels before entering into the PrC (I wanted wild shape as the PrC advances that). I'm planning on relying on Pearls of Power and wands to augment my spell casting until I have enough slots/spells to expand my options more. Currently my sorcerer spells consist of Ray of Enfeeblement and Shield. The ray gets used more often, while my Druid spells are usually chosen for either buffing ability, or random needs.
I am fortunate that the DM offered up the MiC recently for use so I'm looking at an Eternal wand of Extended Mage Armor to handle my AC needs, and some Spellmight Bracers to offer more "umph" to my acid splash spell, and any other combat oriented spell I cast.
We only have four players and conversely the DM has not "coddled" us before that accusation comes out... we finished the first book at fourth level, having done everything in it because he felt we laid waste to everything too easily already. We are just starting the second book so if you want I'll happily keep you informed of how it goes, with as few spoilers as I can manage.
|
The point you keep missing is that the DD, whether its a cool class or not is mechanically inferior to a sorcerer. That is why the edition remark was made, and the orb series of spells can kill the golem in the antimagic field well before 16th level.I just don't see it as mechanically weaker. In fact, I find the most useful spells to be in the 3-5 range. DD gets those, and more. At 13th level, the Sor/DD has 5th level spells and combat survivability compariable to the Monk. Would the Sor have 6th level spells? Yes, and Disintegrate is very cool, unless they save. Then they rush the Sor and try everything to kill him before he can do that again. If he was a DD and they rushed him, the DD would bare the claws and have at, being much more likely to win in meele than the Sor.
And as to the orb spells, very clever, except the golem then rushes you, grapples, and you die. To defeat the encounter you need to either make the Golem unable to attack you in such a way where you can still attack it, or get rid of the anti-magic shell. Neither is very easy or uncomplicated for a single character, especially in a dungeon-type encounter.
Warblade uses iron heart surge to end the anti-magic field.
Warblade uses elder mountain hammer with his strong arm bracers on his large great sword, and enters punishing stance to hit the monster for...
3d6 + 1d6 + 6d6 ignoring hardness and DR.
Warblade has the bab, hit points, and CMD to fend off the crazy golem, and gets access to medium and light armor. By that level it could even be mithral and not affecting his movement, at all.
EDIT: Actually, now that I think of it, the warblade doesn't even NEED Iron Heart Surge, he'll do just fine without it.
Having a Heal spell and disintegrate spell at your disposal can't be a bad thing. I could see giving up 9th level spell casting for that kind of versatility.
When ever I talk about how wizards get the shaft for capstone and level based abilities they say a good player can make it work. Well I say a good player with near unlimited spell casting per day can make it work. He has a multitude of options and as long as he is willing to alter tactics and leaves a back door open he is infinitely survivable.
Maybe the mystic won't crack mountains as often as a pure sorcerer but versatility and increased survivability count for allot.
Maybe the class would start as Cleric 5/ Sorcerer 1...
That would make the whole thing a lot more palatable, to be sure. Any more than one useful level given up as an "entry fee" sort of screws the pooch (not you, Courtfool).
Having a Heal spell and disintegrate spell at your disposal can't be a bad thing. I could see giving up 9th level spell casting for that kind of versatility.Single-classed clerics can get Disintegrate from the Destruction domain or emulate Disintegrate with Miracle and just cast Heal (although I'm baffled as to why they'd want to cast the former).
A wizard can either Wish for Heal or use Planar Binding to politely ask an Astral Deva to Heal himself or his friends (seeing as Astral Devas specialize in helping planar travelers and powerful characters undertaking good causes and all), generally at the cost of going and doing something heroic in the name of Good.
Considering a wizard's got this covered at level 13 and a cleric has it covered at either level 15 or 17, not a great example.
Those spells were examples not an exhaustive list. The arcane list has many important spells not available to priests under level 8. Using greater planer binding is a great idea but also a 10 minute cast. This makes it tough to do in an emergency. Wish is wonderful if you have an infinite supply of cash 25,000 gp diamond per cast makes me hesitate to cast this every round.
I am also found of the following cleric spells
Wind walk
Harm
Heroes' Feast
Cure Serious wounds mass
Raise Dead
Hallow
Forbidence
Blade Barrier
Fire Storm
Freedom of movement
Cure critical wounds
Death Ward
Invisibility purge
A few of my favorite Arcane spells
Charm monster
Fire Shield
Arcane Eye
Invis Greater
Shadow conjuration
Enervation
Interposing hand
Seeming
Fabricate
Wall of Force
Mislead
Force Cage
Mage's Sword
Ethereal jaunt
The Mystic has access to all of those highly useful spells. They will never get wish or miracle but a clever player with nearly inexhaustible 4-7 level spells in two classes can get by without them.
You defiantly lose power but gain incredible versatility. It depends on what is important to you.
|
|
Okay, I made one change to my plans, and gave them both Mithral Celestial Armor.
Ray Jess
Draconic(Gold) BL. Sorcerer1/Barbarian9/Dragon Disciple10
Hit Dice: 1d6+6+9d12+9+54+10d12+60+20 ( 293hp)
Fortitude:19=11+6+2 Reflex:6=6+0 Will:9=10-1 Bab:+16/+11/+6/+1 CMB:+22 CMD:+22
Ac:27=10+9+3+0+5 Touch:10 Flat-Footed:27 Speed:40ft, Fly 60ft(average)
Str22(16+2L+4DD)
Dex10
Con22(16+2L+2h+2DD)
Int10(8+2DD
Wis8
Cha16
Mithral Celestial Armor(+9 AC, acp-0, Max Dex+8, ascf 5% 20lbs)
Mithral Heavy Shield(+3 AC, acp-0, ascf 5%, 7 1/2Lbs)
Masterwork Longsword(1d8+6, 19-20/x2, 4Lbs, S) +23/+17/+12/+7
2 Claws(1d6+6+1d6 fire, x2, P&S)+22 6/day Can't be used with Sword or Shield
Bite(1d6+8+1d6 fire, x2, B,P&S)+22 gained with claws
Breath Weapon(11d6 fire, 30ft cone, 2/day, Dc:18 for half damage)
Skills
Linguistics: 1(for the Draconic Language)
Knowledge(arcana):7=-1+5+3
Perception:21=-1+19+3
Survival:16=-1+14+3
Fly:26=0+20+3+3
Intimidate:32=3+20+3+6
Feats: Empower Spell(1st), Power Attack(3rd), Toughness(5th), Vital Strike(9th), Weapon Focus(Longsword, 11th), Dazzling Display(Longsword, 13th), Shatter Defenses(15th), Improved Vital Strike(17th), Greater Vital Strike(19th)
Bonus Feats: Eschew Material(class bonus), Intimidating Prowess(human bonus), Skill Focus(Fly, BL bonus), Skill Focus(Knowledge{arcana}, BL bonus), Great Fortitude(BL bonus)
Spells per Day
Lv1:7 Dc:14
Lv2:7 Dc:15
Lv3:6 Dc:16
Lv4:4 Dc:17
Spells Known
Lv0: Acid Splash, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Dancing Lights,
Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead
Lv1: Mage Armor, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Burning Hands(5d4+5), Magic Missile(4d4+4),
True Strike
Lv2: Resist Energy, Darkness, Blindness/Deafness, False Life
Lv3: Fly, Ray of Exhaustion, Haste
Lv4: Fear, Enervation
Barbarian Abilities
Rage: 26 points
Rage Powers: Clear Mind, Guarded Stance(+2, rounds), Powerful Blow(+3), Renewed Vigor(2d8+)
Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense+3, Damage Reduction 1/-
Rage Stats
HP: +40
Str26+8
Con26+8
Fortitude:21=11+8+2 Will:11=10-1+2 CMB:+24 CMD:+24
Ac: 27=10+9+3+0+5-2 Touch:8 Flat-Footed:25
Masterwork Longsword(1d8+8, 19-20/x2, 4Lbs, S) +25/+20/+15/+12
2 Claws(1d6+8+1d6 fire, x2, P&S)+24 6/day Can't be used with Sword or Shield
Bite(1d6+10+1d6 fire, x2, B,P&S)+24 gained with claws
Intimidate:34=3+20+3+8
Form of the Dragon II stats
HP: +60
Str28
Con26
Fortitude:21=11+8+2 Will:9=10-1 CMB:+25 CMD:+25
Ac:21=10+0+0+0+11 Touch:10 Flat-Footed:21 Speed:40ft, Fly 90ft(poor)
DR 5/magic [See Dragon Type] Resistance
Bite(2d6+13, x2, B,P&S)+24
2 Claws(1d8+9, x2, P&S)+24
2 Wings(1d6+9, x2, B)+24
Tail Slap(1d8+9, x2, B)+24
Breath Weapon(8d8, Dc:?)
Intimidate:35=3+20+3+9
Rage and Form of the Dragon II stats
HP: +100
Str32
Con30
Ac:19=10+0+0+0+11-2 Tch:8 Flat-footed:19 CMB:+28 CMD:+28 Speed: 40ft, Fly 90ft(poor)
DR 5/magic [See Dragon Type] Resistance
Bite(2d6+16, x2, B,P&S)+27
2 Claws(1d8+11, x2, P&S)+27
2 Wings(1d6+11, x2, B)+27
Tail Slap(1d8+11, x2, B)+27
Breath Weapon(8d8, Dc:?)
Intimidate:37=3+20+3+11
|
|
Blayd Usser
Fighter4/Draconic(Gold) BL. Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight10
Hit Dice: 4d4+20+6d6+6+30+10d10+50 ( 222hp)
Fortitude:11=11+5 Reflex:6=6+0 Will:8=9+-1 Bab:+17 CMB:+21 CMD:+24
Ac:23=10+9+3+0+1 Touch: 10 Flat-Footed: 22 Speed: 30ft,
Str18(16+2L)
Dex10
Con20(16+2L+2h)
Int8
Wis8
Cha16
Mithral Celestial Armor(+9 AC, acp-0, Max Dex+8, ascf 5% 20lbs)
Mithral Heavy Shield(+3 AC, acp-0, ascf 5%, 7 1/2Lbs)
Masterwork Longsword(1d8+8, 17-20/x2, 4Lbs, S) +23/+18/+13/+8
2 Claws(1d4+4, x2, P&S)+21 6/day Can't be used with Sword or Shield
Resist Fire 5 +1 natural armor
Skills
Knowledge(arcana):12=-1+10+3
Spellcraft:12=-1+10+3
Survival:12=-1+10+3
Sense Motive:12=-1+10+3
Feats: Improved Initiative(1st), Toughness(3rd), Shield Focus(5th), Arcane Armor Training(7th), Arcane Strike(9th), Quicken Spell(11th), Quick Draw(13th), Greater Weapon Focus(Longsword,15th), Greater Weapon Specialization(Longsword, 17th), Improved Critical(Longsword, 19th)
Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus(Longsword), Blind Fight, Weapon Specialization(Longsword), Eschew Materials, Defensive Combat Training, Critical Focus, Bleeding Critical
Spell per day
Lv0 Dc:13
Lv1: 7 Dc:14
Lv2: 7 Dc:15
Lv3: 7 Dc:16
Lv4: 6 Dc:17
Lv5: 6 Dc:18
Lv6: 6 Dc:19
Lv7: 4 Dc:20
Spells Known
Lv0: Acid Splash, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Dancing Lights,
Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Arcane Mark
Lv1: Magic Missile(5d4+5), Burning Hands(5d4+5), Magic Weapon, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor
Lv2: Scorching Ray(4d6+4, 3 rays), Acid Arrow(2d4, lasts 6 rounds), False Life(1d10+10), Alter Self, Bear's Strength, Resist Energy
Lv3: Fire Ball(10d6+10), Displacement, Vampiric Touch, Haste
Lv4: Fire Shield(1d4+16), Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles
Lv5: Cone of Cold, Overland Flight, Teleport, Wall of Force
Lv6: Greater Dispel Magic, Transformation, Disintegrate
Lv7: Limited Wish, Summon Monster 7
Okay, I made one change to my plans, and gave them both Mithral Celestial Armor.
Problem: Celestial Armor is Mithral to start with.
I'm doing a modified Arcane Hierophant for our LoF campaign and that's pretty much what I did Dennis.
I don't think I have hierophant, I don't have a lot of supplemental books. What is that in?
Arcane Heirophant is in Races of the Wild, I believe. Druid/arcane caster multicaster, with a couple class features (including stacking animal companion and familiar into the same creature).
Maybe the class would start as Cleric 5/ Sorcerer 1...That would make the whole thing a lot more palatable, to be sure. Any more than one useful level given up as an "entry fee" sort of screws the pooch (not you, Courtfool).
Kind of what I was thinking. I'll add this to my list of home rule hacks if a player ever wants to do a MyTh type character. I'll worry about exactly which levels to not advance later.
The PrC in question advances animal companion and familiar and makes it a single creature. It allows you to cast arcane spells in druid armor with no spell failure, and finally it advances wild shape if you have the ability (if I understand the wording right, I know it advances if you already have wild shape I'm not sure beyond that since the wording is odd). It gets some other features that are really nice but truthfully of higher value than the MT gets and it normally also gets 4+Int skill points and medium BAB. We specifically reduced both of those to Poor BAB and 2+Int skill points to help it match the MT more.
The point you keep missing is that the DD, whether its a cool class or not is mechanically inferior to a sorcerer. That is why the edition remark was made, and the orb series of spells can kill the golem in the antimagic field well before 16th level.I just don't see it as mechanically weaker. In fact, I find the most useful spells to be in the 3-5 range. DD gets those, and more. At 13th level, the Sor/DD has 5th level spells and combat survivability compariable to the Monk. Would the Sor have 6th level spells? Yes, and Disintegrate is very cool, unless they save. Then they rush the Sor and try everything to kill him before he can do that again. If he was a DD and they rushed him, the DD would bare the claws and have at, being much more likely to win in meele than the Sor.
And as to the orb spells, very clever, except the golem then rushes you, grapples, and you die. To defeat the encounter you need to either make the Golem unable to attack you in such a way where you can still attack it, or get rid of the anti-magic shell. Neither is very easy or uncomplicated for a single character, especially in a dungeon-type encounter.
1.The spells that give DM's trouble are the higher level spells generally speaking.
2. The golem has to find the caster, get to the caster, and hit the caster. It's not like he going to just sit there, and even if the golem charges he only gets one attack. Having to deal with all three issues is theoretical, but most people I have seen play casters at least make 1 of the first 2 hard to do. A golem grappling a caster would be strategy. Golems with their int of - should not be using strategy other. Even if the golem is intelligent he cant do anything about dimension door. No verbal component is required so even a pinned caster can escape. The golem doing a grapple also only does unarmed strike damage, which is not the same as natural attack damage so the orb spells will probably take him out before the caster is dead anyway.
3. Caster stay alive by not being in melee. Just because you got lucky and got to the caster that does not mean he will stay there. There is also nothing saying someone would use disintegrate. It is common knowledge that caster level > non-caster levels.
|
|
Problem: Celestial Armor is Mithral to start with.Okay, I made one change to my plans, and gave them both Mithral Celestial Armor.
Celestial Armor
Aura faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 22,400 gp; Weight 20 lbs.
Description
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of –2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, fly, creator must be good; Cost 11,350 gp
Doesn't say the armor is mithral, in fact, it says gold or silver.
True I was thinking elven chain apparently. Still I would give you a fat "no" on the point it is already a special material item.
Chain mail as a light armor with half of the ASF as a special specific armor means I'm not likely to give you the "oh I craft it out of mithral" to lose even more off of the ASF... it already has a superior effect from the "silver or gold" that it is made of.
Otherwise you might say "Oh I craft the dwarven plate out of mithral".
Silver or Gold =/= mithral
Actually, silver DOES == mithral in Pathfinder.
Actually, silver DOES == mithral in Pathfinder.
Only for the purposes of Damage reduction, or do you want me to only pay you the price of silver when you bring in a load of mithral and go "It's all the same right?"
If it's good enough for DR, it's good enough for Celestial Armor.
And, if it's really that much of a sticking point, there are armor enchantments that do the same thing. Twilight, for example. You're picking a nit for no reason other than to be ornery.
If it's good enough for DR, it's good enough for Celestial Armor.
And, if it's really that much of a sticking point, there are armor enchantments that do the same thing. Twilight, for example. You're picking a nit for no reason other than to be ornery.
Nope I'm 'nitpicking' because the armor involved is already almost twice as good as mithral is to begin with.
In fact if they are the "same thing" then it is highly probably that mithral is already used in the construction of the armor.
Beyond that it specifically calls out the materials used in the construction of the armor:
You wouldn't allow Dwarven plate to be constructed of mithral and give the same DR 3/-
You wouldn't let Rhino Hide be constructed out of Dragon Hide
You wouldn't let Elven chain mail be constructed out of adamantine
So why should you be allowed to construct Celestial Chain Mail out of Mithral?
It just doesn't follow. The armor (as I already pointed out, twice now) is already better than mithral. So actually adding mithral to it would probably make it worse that it was to start with.
IF I wanted to be orney I wouldn't take the time to point out the obvious on why it doesn't work. However I did, and unless you can address the very valid point of why you would allow this, but not allow the others I mentioned above you really don't have much to stand on.
You wouldn't allow Dwarven plate to be constructed of mithral and give the same DR 3/-
... because mitral can't substitute for adamantine.
You wouldn't let Rhino Hide be constructed out of Dragon Hide
... because dragon hide can't substitute for rhino hide.
You wouldn't let Elven chain mail be constructed out of adamantine
... because adamantine can't substitute for mithral.
So why should you be allowed to construct Celestial Chain Mail out of Mithral?
Because mithral can substitute for silver.
Also, I like your moving goalposts.
Didn't move a thing. I stated that I wouldn't allow it, that the book specifically states it is made of "Gold or silver" which is NOT mithral, otherwise it would say "mithral" and pointed out that it still is not Silver, nor is silver Mithral. In fact the book specifically states that "Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
It does not state that mithral is silver, it does not state that mithral can be used in the place of silver, and it does [b[ not [/b] state that they are the same thing.
They are not.
Mithral =/= silver.
silver =/= mithral.
Mithral weapons count as silver for (and only for) the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
This is not a carte blanche statement that you can simply subsitute mithral for silver for any purpose.
My stance is that mithral isn't silver.
The PrC in question advances animal companion and familiar and makes it a single creature. It allows you to cast arcane spells in druid armor with no spell failure, and finally it advances wild shape if you have the ability (if I understand the wording right, I know it advances if you already have wild shape I'm not sure beyond that since the wording is odd). It gets some other features that are really nice but truthfully of higher value than the MT gets and it normally also gets 4+Int skill points and medium BAB. We specifically reduced both of those to Poor BAB and 2+Int skill points to help it match the MT more.
Wow... how many caster levels lost? sounds pretty wild.
You wouldn't allow Dwarven plate to be constructed of mithral and give the same DR 3/-
Pshaw! Everyone knows Dwarven plate is made of real dwarves,
I am also found of the following...Bigby's Interposing Hand? Mordenkainen's Sword? Cure Critical Wounds? Fire Storm?
Seriously?
Is there a reason someone who is not you cannot be fond of spells you are not?