The core book brought material over from the 3.5 DMG. There was a Dragon Discipline. Rather than use the particularly lame version from 3.5 Paizo made a much cooler class based on that.
There are no other cool lines for the same reason there aren't a ton of other prestige classes. Space, editors time, etc.
I have a character who has the Abyssal bloodline, so the DM worked up an "Abyssal Disciple" variant based on the Dragon Disciple. It's not hard to use Dragon Disciple as a template.
Where is the PrC for Paladins? None of them really make much sense for him. *shrug*
Or monk PrCs...poor monks always get the shaft.
Remember that (most) prestige classes aren't made with exact classes in mind. Bards, Hexblades and Spell-Theives can also become dragon-disciples (and the class generally works out better for them since they aren't full-casters anyway).
Ditto with other classses - The last assassin I saw IG was a Monk/Assassin.
When taking that into account, theres already quite alot of prestige classes avaliable for sorcerers in core already, and tons more if you include non-core.
The PFRPG DD class is certainly written with the sorcerer+draconic bloodline in mind. In fact, with only 3 levels of spellcasting gone, it is arguably the best choice for the sorcerer.
Arguably the best choice? Erm... I guess, if your argument is that a 3/4 BAB and d12HD are worth a massive hit to the classes core ability then sure. I'm not seeing it.
DD is good if you want a character that crosses over into melee but it's generally one of those between classes that is mediocre at a bunch of stuff.
Edit: I playtested a 16th level DD and the full caster in the party humiliated me and I couldn't even come close to contending with the melee characters even with spells boosting me.
the hit is 3 spell levels, which btw, is partially compensated for with more breath weapons, improved flight, and 3 pts more nat AC.
None of those come even remotely close to losing the ability to cast 9th level spells.
No. Spellfire sucks when it isn't being used by the main character in a novel.
And it's not just ninth level spells you're losing out on. A sorcerer X/DD 10 will always be two full spell tiers behind a sorcerer X+10. There are very, very, very few benefits that can hope to match two full tiers of spells.
And at DD4, you have lost 1 level of spells,
Thus being one full tier of spells behind a same-level wizard...
and gained +4 to STR, +2 to armor, a bite attack, another breath weapon attack, and a bonus feat.
All of which are useless in your primary role except for the bonus feat if it's used for Quicken Spell or Improved Initiative.
The stat boosts from Dragon Disciple are all completely worthless for a sorcerer. Strength? Natural Armor? Do you really want to get into melee combat so that those actually matter? Intelligence? What do sorcerers need Int for? Con is decent, but not hardly worth the tradeoffs.
Druids and Clerics, maybe, but nobody ever, TMK, argued that a party of Wiz were the best...
Oh, yes, they have. And past the first couple of levels they're right. A properly built and played wizard can solo an adventure designed for a party of four.
If you think that melee combat is anything remotely close to a good idea with a sorcerer, you've clearly not been playing the same edition of D&D as the rest of us. How's 5th edition like?
[Oh, yes, they have. And past the first couple of levels they're right. A properly built and played wizard can solo an adventure designed for a party of four.Yeah, right until the first surprise round. Then a horde of mooks slaughter the Wiz.
I would like to see any Wiz lower than 16 defeat a golem in an anti-magic shell. Even then!
The wizard is invisible. If there's any surprise round, it's him that's acting in it, not the mooks, and he's not using any spells that would end the invisibility. He has his dominated and summoned minions for that.
As for a golem in an anti-magic field ... please show me the published adventure that has such a thing.
Druids and Clerics, maybe, but nobody ever, TMK, argued that a party of Wiz were the best...Oh, yes, they have. And past the first couple of levels they're right. A properly built and played wizard can solo an adventure designed for a party of four.
Only if he can sleep safely.
But with the power of spells like sleep and color spray wizards at low level can be very powerful. The one issue they have is someone making saves or having immunities he can't overcome. Clerics and Druids can deal a little better because they have more hit points, healing, and some armor. They do however lack the offensive spell power of a wizard so it evens out a bit.
For me worrying about 9th level spells isn't of any value, same goes for worrying about cap stone powers, honestly who cares. If you actually are in a campaigne that will reach such levels you usually are in one that will go past level 20 so you will get your 9th level spells just later. That isn't to say in this situation the Dragon D is as powerful a choice as simply leveling as sorc, it isn't plain and simple. But it could be more fun, which to me is the reason to play a class or PrC anyway.
Only if he can sleep safely.
That's what rope trick and teleport are for.
If you think that melee combat is anything remotely close to a good idea with a sorcerer, you've clearly not been playing the same edition of D&D as the rest of us. How's 5th edition like?
[Oh, yes, they have. And past the first couple of levels they're right. A properly built and played wizard can solo an adventure designed for a party of four.Yeah, right until the first surprise round. Then a horde of mooks slaughter the Wiz.
I would like to see any Wiz lower than 16 defeat a golem in an anti-magic shell. Even then!
The wizard is invisible. If there's any surprise round, it's him that's acting in it, not the mooks, and he's not using any spells that would end the invisibility. He has his dominated and summoned minions for that.
As for a golem in an anti-magic field ... please show me the published adventure that has such a thing.
At low levels he's hardly invisible for all encounters. More so there are still issues with invisibility, you can be heard, smelt, or even seen(general area) with an extreme perception roll. Come on folks let this one go or start a thread about solo wizard adventuring. It really doesn't fit here.
Only if he can sleep safely.That's what rope trick and teleport are for.
That aint exactly low level stuff, more like mid level. Even then he will meet foes that can deal with him at those levels. I wouldn't like his chances at level 9 (min level for teleport) finishing Hook Mountain solo.
That aint exactly low level stuff, more like mid level.
No duh, Sherlock. We're in a thread talking about a prestige class. Generally speaking, you're going to be talking at least mid levels when you're talking about prestige classes.
I can't think of anything in Hook Mountain Massacre that would be particularly difficult to overcome as a solo wizard, either.
Since I don't own many published adventures, I can't say. Why? Does that make it illegal, not being in a published adventure? Is THAT what's wrong with my edition?
When you're responding to a person who says "a properly built and played wizard can solo an adventure designed for four characters" it's probably a good idea to actually respond in a fashion that's consistent with what you're responding to.
And, regardless, a golem in an antimagic field is going to TPK most 4-person parties as well. It's not like it's only the wizard that's going to be screwed.
And a Wiz who keeps Invis up all the time is just silly. That's not 1hr/lvl, you know. It's not like Mage Armor. Would be cool if it was, but sadly no.
It's minutes/level, which is more than enough time when you've got a bag full of invisibility scrolls.
If there's a surprise round, it's always going to be the one outnumbered and with a bad FF AC that will suffer.
Not if he's the one doing the surprising.
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Sorcerers have always been a bit light on good PrC's that they could get the same bang for their leveling buck as a wizard or cleric, not to say that they aren't out there, just that there aren't a lot that are worth it.
Dragon Disciple was always intended for a melee type character with a bit of magic mixed in. Sorcerer/Fighter or Bard/Barbarian or other such silly combinations.
The new Dragon Disciple makes it a bit more fun, though it keeps paladins from have like 7 first level spell slots.
Sorc 1/Paladin 4/DD 10/EK 5 is pretty solid for a Gold Dragon Disciple for the Pathfinder RPG. You probably aren't wearing armor but you've got a good amount of melee/magic abilities, some fighter feats and good saves. Fun if not horrifically overpowered.
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If you think that melee combat is anything remotely close to a good idea with a sorcerer, you've clearly not been playing the same edition of D&D as the rest of us. How's 5th edition like?
With all due respect, it's pretty clear from the Dragon Disciple's design that melee combat is precisely the point of it. If you take it as axiomatic that a sorcerer isn't going to be mixing it up in hand to hand, then clearly the class fails. On the other hand, if you're willing to accept that you might in fact want to do such a thing, then to class does its job extremely well - and better, I would suggest, than a straight sorcerer would.
Creative Director
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No duh, Sherlock. We're in a thread talking about a prestige class. Generally speaking, you're going to be talking at least mid levels when you're talking about prestige classes.
Okay, folks... keep it friendly.
As for the prestige classes... we obviously only had room to do a few in the core RPG, which guaranteed that certain types of classes would be left out. That's fine. We're not going anywhere, and will continue to create more PRPG Prestige Classes in products. There'll CERTAINLY be more in the Advanced Player's Guide, and there's usually one in every Companion and now and then in Pathfinder Adventure Paths as well.
No reason to get insulting, in other words!
With all due respect, it's pretty clear from the Dragon Disciple's design that melee combat is precisely the point of it. If you take it as axiomatic that a sorcerer isn't going to be mixing it up in hand to hand, then clearly the class fails. On the other hand, if you're willing to accept that you might in fact want to do such a thing, then to class does its job extremely well - and better, I would suggest, than a straight sorcerer would.
The assertion that we're refuting is that Dragon Disciple is clearly the best possible prestige class for Sorcerers. The reasoning is, seemingly, because a Sorc/DD can melee only a bit worse than a monk and only loses one to two tiers of spells!
I'd also contest that a straight sorc couldn't get the job done just as well. Those one to two tiers of spells also include spells designed to allow you to fight in melee, you know.
We are debating weather the DD is a sucky class for a Sorcerer? WTF!
If there was no other reward than the doubled hit points I would conciser taking the 3 CL hit but with all the other gravy on top it is a moral imperative for any sorcerer.
If the level 9 spell is that important then just stop leveling the DD at level 8. That way you still get to cast 4-5 level 9 spells a day.
So level 20 you have given up 2 CL and have 3 fewer level 9 casts per day for
42 hps (on average)
+3 Natural armor
+2 BAB (this gives that third attack) 12/7/2
Breath weapon
Dragon bite
Blind Sense 30
Dragon Form 1
+4 Str
+2 Con
+2 Int
+3 Fort saves
The only thing you are missing by not taking the last 2 levels is
Faster natural flying speed
Blind Sense 60'
Dragon Form II
7 hit points
42 hps (on average)
Moderately useful.
+3 Natural armor
Useless.
+2 BAB (this gives that third attack) 12/7/2
Useless.
Breath weapon
Useless.
Dragon bite
Utterly useless.
Blind Sense 30
Moderately useful.
Dragon Form 1
Already have.
+4 Str
Utterly useless.
+2 Con
Mildly useful (more for the Fort save bonus than the HP).
+2 Int
Useless.
+3 Fort saves
Moderately useful.
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Why should I trade one 8th level and three 9th level spells for seven useless abilities and four mildly to moderately useful abilities, three of which are purely defensive (when sorcerers aren't a defensive class)? You're sacrificing your strengths to shore up your weaknesses, but your weaknesses are still weaknesses. If you were completely removing your weaknesses, it might -- might -- be a good trade. But you aren't completely removing your weaknesses, you're just making yourself die in one and a half hits in melee (and engaging in melee combat, as opposed to avoiding melee combat, which tends to increase the number of hits you take...) instead of one.
Note, for the record, that I'm not saying DD is a bad prestige class. It's just a bad prestige class for otherwise single-classed sorcerers who act like single-classed sorcerers instead of fighters with bad BAB and d6 hit dice.
It's a great prestige class for melee characters who dip into sorcerer, for melee bards who don't mind giving up bardic music progression, and for certain splatbook melee/caster hybrids that cast spontaneously. In this respect it's actually a perfectly designed prestige class, because dragons aren't Ultimate Spellcasters, either. They're mostly melee brutes who have a little magic on the side. That's what Dragon Disciples do best. Single-class sorcerer just isn't the best vessel for that.
From my viewpoint, this prestige class is in no way a moral imperative for sorcerers. Watching both a single classed Sorcerer, and a Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple progress through a recent campaign, I would have to say that the increased number of class abilities the Dragon Disciple gained didn't match the loss of just two caster levels.
The Dragon Disciple's spells were always less effective than the Sorcerer's magic. Less potential to penetrate spell resistance, access to less powerful spells, and overall weaker spells made him, in general weaker than the Sorcerer. Overall, he found less occasion to use the abilities he gained, even then the Sorcerer was just matching and exceeding those things that he was lacking with his more powerful spells.
The Dragon Disciples character wasn't crippled such that he couldn't still be a great power in the campaign, but in the end, the prestige class took away more power than it gave.
[When you're responding to a person who says "a properly built and played wizard can solo an adventure designed for four characters" it's probably a good idea to actually respond in a fashion that's consistent with what you're responding to.
And, regardless, a golem in an antimagic field is going to TPK most 4-person parties as well. It's not like it's only the wizard that's going to be screwed.
Well, your lordship, I was unaware that the only properly built adventures were the published material...
Oh wait, I DID publish my very own module: at GenCon 2 years ago, in fact. Hey! That means I CAN evaluate this, right?
Ok, well, in "They're Coming to Eat Our Brains", the Wiz is completly pwn'd by the Mummy at the end. With the archer to fire tons of arrows and the Wiz to cast Flame Arrow off the scroll, they win. Otherwise the kitten vampire kills the Wiz and makes HIM the familiar!
And, no, a Golem in an anti-magic shell will be killed handily by 4 FIGHTERS, especially if they have Ad weapons or Penetrating Strike. End of story.
Sheesh! It's like people are so addicted to magic that they forget that there are other ways to defeat encounters...
Do you have a link to this adventure? A wizard being killed does not prove anything. Any class can die, but a caster played properly is harder to kill than other classes.
[When you're responding to a person who says "a properly built and played wizard can solo an adventure designed for four characters" it's probably a good idea to actually respond in a fashion that's consistent with what you're responding to.
And, regardless, a golem in an antimagic field is going to TPK most 4-person parties as well. It's not like it's only the wizard that's going to be screwed.
Well, your lordship, I was unaware that the only properly built adventures were the published material...
Oh wait, I DID publish my very own module: at GenCon 2 years ago, in fact. Hey! That means I CAN evaluate this, right?
Ok, well, in "They're Coming to Eat Our Brains", the Wiz is completly pwn'd by the Mummy at the end. With the archer to fire tons of arrows and the Wiz to cast Flame Arrow off the scroll, they win. Otherwise the kitten vampire kills the Wiz and makes HIM the familiar!
And, no, a Golem in an anti-magic shell will be killed handily by 4 FIGHTERS, especially if they have Ad weapons or Penetrating Strike. End of story.
Sheesh! It's like people are so addicted to magic that they forget that there are other ways to defeat encounters...
The point you keep missing is that the DD, whether its a cool class or not is mechanically inferior to a sorcerer. That is why the edition remark was made, and the orb series of spells can kill the golem in the antimagic field well before 16th level.
The Dragon Disciple's spells were always less effective than the Sorcerer's magic. Less potential to penetrate spell resistance, access to less powerful spells, and overall weaker spells made him, in general weaker than the Sorcerer. Overall, he found less occasion to use the abilities he gained, even then the Sorcerer was just matching and exceeding those things that he was lacking with his more powerful spells.Two caster levels totally nerfed the character, huh? Mystic Theurge must be the most nerfed PrC in existance, then. Look, you loose 3 caster levels from 2 casting classes! What? Lower level spells can still be useful? No way! Anything not the top level spell is just a waste of time!!
Or could it be that they played the DD as a caster, not a spellsword?
Not really sure, but someone above just said 40+ hp's are only marginally useful. I don't know about him, but MOST of my characters died because they RAN OUT OF HP'S! An extra 40 seems pretty good. and +3 AC? 15% more chance to not get hit worthless? Not when paired with an extra 40 hp's. Extra damage abilities that are not spell based but supernatural worthless? Is the fighter swinging the sword useless too?
Let it be known to all non-full casters that everything you do at 9th level is worthless compared to the awesome power of the 5th level spell!
I didn't say that he was "useless" or "worthless." Those are words that you chose to use that I didn't think were accurate to what I saw. I like to think that I'm reasonably willing to interact with challenges to my arguments, but I'm not going to bother if you are going to respond with hyperbole that misrepresents what I said.
I agree that minor Sorceror "dip" builds work best with DD, like:
Sorc1/Barb12/DD7 or Sorc1/Fight11/DD8 or similar combos.
I don't really get what the problem is with this scenario...
There's plenty of variations on Full Casters with all the options now in the Core Classes - Draconic Bloodline would seem to fulfill the Draconic Full Caster thematic-mechanical niche plenty fine by itself. So having Paizo's take on Dragon Disciple be pretty good at enabling a certain kind of 'gish' build that Core Single Class builds by themselves can't approach... seems a better way to broaden the core game than creating a "Draconic Full Caster" PrC when that thematic-mechanical niche is already covered. I'm pretty sure that similar thinking is what guided the design direction of Dragon Disciple.
I do look forward to other "Bloodline PrC's" though...
That is where I question why, using the MyThe as an example. They certainly have all the weaknesses you describe, but make do just fine. Why would the DD fare so much worse?
The party's MyTh in Red Hand of Doom pretty much got us all killed, by being unable to adequately buff and heal on the one hand, and by being unable to provide meaningful battlefield control or artillery support on the other. The MyTh cripples his whole party. -- unless you already have a full wizard and full cleric on hand, and the MyTh just stands around getting babysat.
Because, let's face it, a cleric 3/sorc 4/myth 1, for example, is in fact nothing but a 4th level sorcerer with a cleric cohort who get only one action per round between them. And yet he's participating in adventures for 8th level characters!
(And looking at a cleric 3/sorcerer 4/mystic theurge 10 is meaningless, because no mystic theurge can survive until 10th level without a small army of well-constructed characters who do nothing but protect him.)