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I'm currently working on my Rise of the Runelords campaign, which will use the PRPG exclusively. I finished my changes for Burnt Offerings, and I'm now starting on Skinsaw Murders.
The haunt rules presented use 3.5 obivously, and I'm having difficulty determining how to adjust them to PRPG. The Initiative Count and the actual mechanics of the haunts are fine and work without conversion. The issue is disrupting the haunts.
With 3.5, each haunt is assigned an effective Hit Die total that can be used with the turning table to determine success. With Pathfinder, clerics and paladins channel energy instead, and given the amount of dice, would have a hard time generating enough damage to successfully stop the haunt in one attempt based on the Hit Dice listed. While I love the idea of the PCs experiencing every haunt, I want to make sure it's fair and that they don't feel that there is nothing they can do to prevent this.
I know the Gamemastery Guide with have the new rules for haunts, but I'll be running this before it's available. Any suggestions?
I'm currently working on my Rise of the Runelords campaign, which will use the PRPG exclusively. I finished my changes for Burnt Offerings, and I'm now starting on Skinsaw Murders.
The haunt rules presented use 3.5 obivously, and I'm having difficulty determining how to adjust them to PRPG. The Initiative Count and the actual mechanics of the haunts are fine and work without conversion. The issue is disrupting the haunts.
With 3.5, each haunt is assigned an effective Hit Die total that can be used with the turning table to determine success. With Pathfinder, clerics and paladins channel energy instead, and given the amount of dice, would have a hard time generating enough damage to successfully stop the haunt in one attempt based on the Hit Dice listed. While I love the idea of the PCs experiencing every haunt, I want to make sure it's fair and that they don't feel that there is nothing they can do to prevent this.
I know the Gamemastery Guide with have the new rules for haunts, but I'll be running this before it's available. Any suggestions?
Maybe if they burn a channel and have the turn feat it will counter it?
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With 3.5, each haunt is assigned an effective Hit Die total that can be used with the turning table to determine success. With Pathfinder, clerics and paladins channel energy instead, and given the amount of dice, would have a hard time generating enough damage to successfully stop the haunt in one attempt based on the Hit Dice listed.
The solution here is to assign an HP value that the PC could match with a Channel attempt. Clerics get 1d6 every odd level, so a 5th level cleric is channeling 3d6 points of positive energy.
The question now becomes, how likely should the cleric be to be able to "turn" the Haunt? If you want it to be 50/50, then giving the Haunt 11 HP would be appropriate. You can, of course, adjust up or down from there as appropriate.
For example:
The Worried Wife haunt has 8 Effective Hit Dice. The same cleric would need a Turning check of 19 to affect an 8-HD creature, which means she would need to roll a 17 on 1d20. That's a 4/20 or 20% chance of success.
Now comes the math. We need a number for which the chance of getting that result or higher is about 20%. Using a table like this one, we can see that our Cleric has a 26% chance of rolling 13, or a 16% chance of rolling 14. So assigning the Haunt 13-14 hit points is about right.
You can, of course, modify these numbers as appropriate for your gaming group.
I recently posted the same question. I have a party running thru the manor right now, and this is how I'm running it:
1.) If a party member channels energy, has the turn undead feat, and the haunt fails it's will save (based on HD), it is banished for the 24 hour period.
2.) If a party member channels energy without the turn undead feat, and the haunt fails it's will save to taking damage, I postpone it's effect for a number of rounds equal to the number of channel dice rolled. Additionally, I subtract the hp damage done from randomly rolled hp based on HD.
3.) Same as #2, but if the haunt fails it's save, it just takes hp damage.
4.) If the haunt takes enough damage in the round (or rounds if the effect is delayed) it is destroyed.
We have three people in the party who can channel energy (one paladin, two clerics). None of them have taken the turn undead feat, although they just had a chance and I strongly hinted it would be useful.
With these rules, when someone notices something and actually says something, they could all start channeling and either do enough damage to make it go away or at least keep it from hurting them for long enough to get out of the room.
I've had them all roll 15d20 each to create a big pool to pull their perception checks from to notice things. Looking at their rolls, I don't expect them to be noticing much of anything - so they are pretty screwed (except the paladin, he's ok).
We had to stop our game early, but the group was just starting to explore further into the house when one of the characters holding back heard the sounds of distressed horses (which they spent a lot of time coercing to come near the house). They rush out to the flocks of undead birds attacking their horses. Furthest into the house was our halfling sorceror who needed to stop by the manticore on the way out. He wasn't too thrilled when it burst into flame, attacked and hit him for a whole bunch of damage. He still needs to get the flames put out.
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Haunts will appear in Pathfinder #27 before they'll appear in the Gamemastery Guide, and I'm hoping folks will get that before too long so that I'll have some last-minute feedback on the PRPG haunt rules before they're set in stone in the Gamemastery Guide.
Actually... here they are. Check them out! (Warning! Unedited text follows...)
Although haunts function like traps, they are difficult to detect since they cannot be easily observed until the round in which they manifest. Each haunt has a specific DC or method to notice it when it manifests just before it strikes—detect undead or a detect alignment for the appropriate alignment allows an observer a chance to notice the haunt even before it manifests by noticing faint auras; the chance to notice a haunt early in this manner is the same as the chance to notice it in its manifestation round, but the check suffers a –2 penalty for success.
When a haunt is triggered, its effects manifest at initiative rank 10 on a surprise round—characters who successfully notice the haunt can act on this round. A haunt’s initial effect vanishes after this round is over, but secondary or lingering effects can persist (such as a haunt that sets fire to a room, or a haunt that animates an object into life). Most haunts detect life sources and trigger as a result of the approach of or contact with living creatures, but some haunts can be tricked by effects like hide from undead or invisibility.
On the surprise round in which a haunt manifests, positive energy applied to the haunt (via channeled energy, cure wounds spells, and the like) applies directly to the haunt’s hit points—a haunt never gains a Will save to lessen the damage done by such effects. For the purposes of withstanding effects of positive energy, a haunt generally has hit points equal to twice its CR. If the haunt is reduced to 0 hit points by positive energy, it vanishes without manifesting its effects, but it is not destroyed. Haunts are always tied to a specific set of events and conditions, and until those conditions are addressed, the haunts continue to reform and work their ill.
Some haunts are persistent, and their immediate effects continue beyond the surprise round into actual full rounds. Persistent haunts continue to trigger their haunt effects once per round on their initiative rank until destroyed or they no longer have a target. As a general rule, a persistent haunt’s hp are higher than most haunts, and are equal to its CR × 4.5.
All effects created by a haunt are mind-affecting fear effects, even those that actually produce physical effects. Immunity to fear grants immunity to a haunt’s direct effects, but not to secondary effects (such as burning rooms or animated objects).
Haunts are presented in stat block format, as follows.
Haunt Name: The haunt’s name is followed by its CR score.
XP: This is the amount of XP to award the PCs for surviving the haunt.
Alignment and Type: This line gives the haunt’s alignment (for the purposes of what detect spells can help reveal its presence before it manifests) and the haunt’s type. This adventure features haunted objects and haunted areas. A haunted object can be targeted with touch spells and effects, such as cure light wounds or by area effects like channeled energy. A haunted area cannot be targeted by touch effects—the only way to disperse a haunted room before it manifests is with area effects like channeled energy. If a haunt is persistent, this is noted here as well.
Caster Level: This is the haunt’s effective caster level for the purposes of dispelling any ongoing effects with dispel magic.
Notice: The check and DC required to notice the haunt in the surprise round before it manifests (sensory input for what a successful check notices are listed in parenthesis after the DC).
hp: This lists the haunt's effective hit points for the purposes of resolving positive energy damage.
(AC, Saves): A haunted object has an Armor Class as if it were an object (although many haunts are semi-animate and function as if they had a Dexterity score of 10, thus avoiding the normal AC penalties for inanimate objects) and saving throws as if it were a magic item (base save of +2 plus half its caster level).
Weakness: Any weaknesses the haunt might have, such as for haunts that can be tricked by effects like hide from undead or can be damaged by effects other than positive energy, are listed here.
Trigger and Reset: The conditions that cause the haunt to manifest, as well as the conditions and amount of time required for the haunt to reset are given here.
Effect: This details the haunt’s exact effects, including a description of how the haunt manifests.
Haunts will appear in Pathfinder #27 before they'll appear in the Gamemastery Guide, and I'm hoping folks will get that before too long so that I'll have some last-minute feedback on the PRPG haunt rules before they're set in stone in the Gamemastery Guide.
Thank you! It's great to get an official answer regarding this My clerics will be happy to have an actual chance to deal with the haunts. (if someone actually happens to notice them before it is too late)
Jonathan
I just want to thank Mister Jacobs for the idea of haunts done as a trap/hazard instead of a creature. Reminds me a lot of that article in Dragon #331 about 'Bad Place' hauntings and how to model them. It's really a clever idea IMO and it does a lot for the atmosphere of an encounter.
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Interestingly, the hp progression suggested by those rules seems to imply that a cleric whose level is roughly the same as the CR of the haunt should be able to destroy it most of the time. The average channel energy produces 3.5 points of damage at 1st level, and an additional 3.5 points per two levels beyond that, while the hp = 2xCR calculation gives a a +4 hp bonus over the same two levels. As a result, up until 9th level or so, a cleric has a 50% or better chance to destroy a haunt of a CR equal to the cleric's level (and by that level, phylacteries of energy channeling come into play anyway).
I'm guessing that the idea the odds of being able to nuke the haunt outright are counterbalanced by the need to spot the haunt and be able to act before it does in order to have your channeling produce any useful effect.
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James, you just made an old, heartless Chelaxian dwarf shed a tear of joy... that sounds really good, and I'm so glad the haunts are going to feature in GMG -- I absolutely *love* that they're traps/hazards instead of [yet another] type of "possessing incorporeal undead".
Yeah, I love the haunts... so much, in fact, that I'm going to run a modified version of 'Skinsaw Murders' in a couple of months and the haunts (and the backstory of this marvelous adventure, naturally) are the reason I made serious modifications to my FR campaign's metaplot (which is built around the machinations of the Kaorti, by the way! :)).
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Creative Director
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Interestingly, the hp progression suggested by those rules seems to imply that a cleric whose level is roughly the same as the CR of the haunt should be able to destroy it most of the time. The average channel energy produces 3.5 points of damage at 1st level, and an additional 3.5 points per two levels beyond that, while the hp = 2xCR calculation gives a a +4 hp bonus over the same two levels. As a result, up until 9th level or so, a cleric has a 50% or better chance to destroy a haunt of a CR equal to the cleric's level (and by that level, phylacteries of energy channeling come into play anyway).
I'm guessing that the idea the odds of being able to nuke the haunt outright are counterbalanced by the need to spot the haunt and be able to act before it does in order to have your channeling produce any useful effect.
Yeah; the idea is that a cleric who's on her toes and manages to spot a haunt before it does its thing AND manages to roll more or less average on his roll will be able to blast the haunt before it does its thing... assuming she rolls better than the haunt's initiative. It's no good if the haunt's got so many hp that even if you go first you won't be able to stop it.
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I'm just about to start the Skinsaw Murders so this rule update could not have come at a better time. Thanks James.
I don't know where my head was at, i have read the scenario 4 times and i never clicked the implications of the Cleric rule changes to channeling. Ahhh i think those Goblins have been slipping something in my drinks lol.
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I'm just about to start the Skinsaw Murders so this rule update could not have come at a better time. Thanks James.
I don't know where my head was at, i have read the scenario 4 times and i never clicked the implications of the Cleric rule changes to channeling. Ahhh i think those Goblins have been slipping something in my drinks lol.
Exactly the same for me ... I did not think about it at all !
Not enough time to prepare it as I should I believe.
I can't wait for skinsaw !
I'm just about to start the Skinsaw Murders so this rule update could not have come at a better time. Thanks James.
I don't know where my head was at, i have read the scenario 4 times and i never clicked the implications of the Cleric rule changes to channeling. Ahhh i think those Goblins have been slipping something in my drinks lol.
In my game I am running, they should get to the Misgivings after one more game session. It would have been the next one, but the Monday game will be cut short for the Packer-Vikings game!
Thanks again James for the sneak peak!
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Quick question, just so it's clear: Since haunts are mind-affecting fear effects, the PRGP paladin ability "Aura of Courage" make them immune to the haunts effects, correct?
I ask because I have two paladins in my group, and I just want to make sure. If they are immune, I'm going to have them experience the haunt as written, to keep them involved and play up the scares, but it won't effect them physically (no damage, no need to save). Does that make sense?
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Quick question, just so it's clear: Since haunts are mind-affecting fear effects, the PRGP paladin ability "Aura of Courage" make them immune to the haunts effects, correct?
I ask because I have two paladins in my group, and I just want to make sure. If they are immune, I'm going to have them experience the haunt as written, to keep them involved and play up the scares, but it won't effect them physically (no damage, no need to save). Does that make sense?
Immunity to fear grants immunity to a haunt’s direct effects, but not to secondary effects (such as burning rooms or animated objects).
I think it's the other way around. They can see the haunt but are not directly affected, nevertheless they would be affected physically by secondary effects.
Haunts will appear in Pathfinder #27 before they'll appear in the Gamemastery Guide, and I'm hoping folks will get that before too long so that I'll have some last-minute feedback on the PRPG haunt rules before they're set in stone in the Gamemastery Guide.
Actually... here they are. Check them out! (Warning! Unedited text follows...)
Do you give Exp for surviving the haunt or only for destroying it?
I believe the PCs earn xp for surviving the haunt and/or destroying it, similar to earning xp for surviving/disarming a trap.
Do you give Exp for surviving the haunt or only for destroying it?
Thanks Rodger, I see you got back to me twice.