The subject line says it all. The Diamond Mind discipline relies very heavily on concentration for many of it's game effects. So what is the fix? Add Concentration as a skill to the game anyways, use a mechanic like concentration checks for casters (d20 + initiator level + key ability mod), Fort save, something else???
I'd either go with initiator level + relevant ability bonus (akin to a spellcaster's concentration check under Pathfinder RPG, as you already noted), or you could go with the Beta mindset, and make it a Martial Lore check (which is attractive if you want to give the skill some extra use).
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I'd either go with initiator level + relevant ability bonus (akin to a spellcaster's concentration check under Pathfinder RPG, as you already noted), or you could go with the Beta mindset, and make it a Martial Lore check (which is attractive if you want to give the skill some extra use).
I like this idea. +1
Perception would also be a good replacement skill. And it needs to be a replacement skill--many Diamond Mind maneuvers become rather underpowered if based on level checks instead of skill checks.
That's true. That's a good idea.
Perception would also be a good replacement skill. And it needs to be a replacement skill--many Diamond Mind maneuvers become rather underpowered if based on level checks instead of skill checks.
I replaced Concentration with Perception when we were using the Beta rules and it worked out very well. The flavor text for many of the maneuvers actually fits better, to me, with Perception anyway.
We just re-introduced the skill with a different name to avoid confusion. We've been using Chi. Only applicable for ToB builds that require the skill. We changed the name so as to not refer to RAW concentration checks.
Doing a level+att check seems most reasonable. This allows you to stick with the base pathfinder rules, and to functionally get a skill for free that you once upon a time would have had to pay for.
If the small difference in numbers is an issue, or you feel that it just isn't flavored right, then Perception would be the next best thing.
Another option is Autohypnosis (which is from the psionics books, but is a useful skill for anyone to have).
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Concentration as a skill is gone, but not as a roll. It's still in the game; see the start of the Magic chapter.
I'm not familiar with how the Book of Nine Swords classes work at all, but if it's similar to how the spellcasting classes used concentration, you can just let the Bo9S characters use the roll in the same way; a level check modified by the appropriate ability score modifier. There's no need to make it a skill... especially if it's so important a skill that you can't play a class without it. In that case, it's not really a skill but a skill tax, and giving it to the class for "free" (which is what we do in PRPG with concentration checks for spellcasters) is good for the game and lets players put their skill points in other areas.
Now... if Bo9S classes just won't work with that... then I suspect that they weren't using the Concentration skill in the way it was intended anyway, and in that case you should probably just make it a new skill specific and applicable to those classes. If you're using Bo9S characters with Pathfinder, you're already doing lots of house rules as it is, so one more won't hurt! :)
Another option is Martial Lore, which is the silly Bo9S-specific skill. Using it for Diamond Mind maneuvers makes it a little less silly.
Another option is Martial Lore, which is the silly Bo9S-specific skill. Using it for Diamond Mind maneuvers makes it a little less silly.
That sounds familiar . . . ;)
I'll probably use Autohypnosis, though I would have preferred Concentration being around still. Martial Lore doesn't really feel like an appropriate fit for me, so I wouldn't use it (and I got rid of the skill and rolled it into Knowledge (History) anyway, since every adept gets that skill anyway).
autohyp isn't a bad fit either, but as previously stated, you end up with what is functionally a skill tax when you want to use diamond mind as a primary school... going the caster route seems a bit more fair/balanced.
Rolling martial lore into history seems like a rather good idea though.
Don't the Initiators have a decent amount of skill points anyway?
Between that and complaints of 'Bo9S is too powerful' I think Autohypnosis works best.
The biggest problem with autohyp is that it is an ok fit, but not great. It gives additional abilities that don't really go with Diamond Mind, though access to those abilities would be neat for the classes.
Also, it doesn't really change power level, b/c as already stated, autohyp gives a bunch of new abilities to the class.
And Bo9S wasn't broken in 3.5, and is pretty much on par with PF. Just sayin'.
autohyp isn't a bad fit either, but as previously stated, you end up with what is functionally a skill tax when you want to use diamond mind as a primary school... going the caster route seems a bit more fair/balanced.
Rolling martial lore into history seems like a rather good idea though.
Just like how Tiger Claw maneuvers often require Jump checks?
I find it funny that no one complains about the rogue's skill tax to be good at its job. If I want to build a rogue, I'll have to put ranks in Perception and Stealth and Disable Device. That's a big skill tax just so that I could do my job. If only I had, oh, I dunno, skill points.
Increasing the skill points of classes like the wizard would have negated the whole "skill tax" argument about Concentration. That's what skill points are for - to be spent on a skill that'll grant you utility. Instead we have a cludge that instead institutes a feat tax in order to approach the new DCs reasonably. I'm okay with a so-called skill tax. I've never had any players complain about putting ranks in Concentration for Diamond Mind mastery - it's such a freakin' good discipline that there'd be no reason not to complain (replace attack rolls/damage rolls/saving throws with a skill check - which means I don't autofail on a 1 - ? Heck yeah!).
Some of the disciplines in ToB require skills. That seems fair to me, especially since the classes get more skill points than fighters, and often have benefits to a higher INT, too (Warblade, at least).
Invent a new skill... call it Centering or something like that.
Quite frankly though, I see balance issues with most of the Tome of Battle stuff in a 3.5/Pathfinder campaign.
What sorts of balance issues, specifically? I'm honestly curious, because it may be something I've overlooked. I've allowed ToB since it came out, and haven't had any real issues, but I'll admit that I haven't run a ton of games. So I'd love to hear some of the balance issues people have had with it.
I'll throw my hat into the ring and say that I think the Diamond Mind maneuvers are only balanced if the characters have to spend a resource to improve them -- in this case, it's skill points. Making it work like Concentration does now, as an automatically increasing bonus, strikes me as making the maneuvers too good.
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Don't the Initiators have a decent amount of skill points anyway?
Between that and complaints of 'Bo9S is too powerful' I think Autohypnosis works best.
The biggest problem with autohyp is that it is an ok fit, but not great. It gives additional abilities that don't really go with Diamond Mind, though access to those abilities would be neat for the classes.
Also, it doesn't really change power level, b/c as already stated, autohyp gives a bunch of new abilities to the class.
And Bo9S wasn't broken in 3.5, and is pretty much on par with PF. Just sayin'.
In my limited play with Bo9S, I didn't find it 'overpowered' Thus my including quotes, I didn't mean to infer otherwise. I figured Autohypnosis works because it includes tricks like memorizing a page of text (which is crazy useful) ignoring caltrop wounds, tolerate poison, etc. I can see the initator classes (and monks) having it as a class skill and then Diamond Mind being seen as an outgrowth, kind of like how Jump/Acrobatics is part of Tiger Claw.
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Just like how Tiger Claw maneuvers often require Jump checks?
I find it funny that no one complains about the rogue's skill tax to be good at its job. If I want to build a rogue, I'll have to put ranks in Perception and Stealth and Disable Device. That's a big skill tax just so that I could do my job. If only I had, oh, I dunno, skill points.
Increasing the skill points of classes like the wizard would have negated the whole "skill tax" argument about Concentration. That's what skill points are for - to be spent on a skill that'll grant you utility. Instead we have a cludge that instead institutes a feat tax in order to approach the new DCs reasonably. I'm okay with a so-called skill tax. I've never had any players complain about putting ranks in Concentration for Diamond Mind mastery - it's such a freakin' good discipline that there'd be no reason not to complain (replace attack rolls/damage rolls/saving throws with a skill check - which means I don't autofail on a 1 - ? Heck yeah!).
As far as I can tell, something is a skill tax if you have to buy the skill only in order to make your class features work. Rogues don't have skill taxes because they are using their skills for what the skills are intended to do. Casters and Diamond Mind practitioners had a skill tax because Concentration didn't do anything for them on its own - it only let them use their class features. (Tiger Claw practitioners, on the other hand, sometimes actually just want to jump over things...) Concentration as a whole had that problem - it was essentially never used on its own, it was just there to make casters spend skill points on it.
I don't disagree that Diamond Mind is an excellent discipline - it's probably the strongest in the book, though that is debatable - but that doesn't make Concentration any less of a skill tax to use it. I'd strongly support using Perception instead - use a skill that actually does something for you in its own right.
Mainly I've see characters monkey with thier maneuver and stance combinations to pour out outsize amounts of damage,on the order of 10d6 per swing.
10d6 per swing ... once. Strikes are always either standard or full-round actions, so they can't be used as part of a full attack (exception to strikes that ARE full attacks, but those don't add damage).
Jump is not used by TC in the same way that Concentration is used for DM. I just isn't as integrated. To use the school at all, you have to have Concentration, and to matter at all in use, it has to be at lvl max. So yes, skill tax. And a dumb one, b/c it's only purpose was to let you use your powers (same for wizards too).
Replacing with Autohyp or Per are both ok, but still imo unnecessary.
Also, making it a initiator+att lowers the numbers that DM can achieve, if only by a bit, evening out the fact that they get a "tax-free" school.
Jump is not used by TC in the same way that Concentration is used for DM. I just isn't as integrated. To use the school at all, you have to have Concentration, and to matter at all in use, it has to be at lvl max. So yes, skill tax. And a dumb one, b/c it's only purpose was to let you use your powers (same for wizards too).
There are 8 maneuvers in Diamond Mind that involve the Concentration skill (and three of those are just upgrades -- the nightmare blade line and the insightful strike line). There are 6 maneuvers in Tiger Claw that involve the Jump skill (all of which are unique abilities).
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Could those of you using Perception please tell me how you are explaining a Perception check replacing a Fortitude or Will Save?
I can see using it for the maneuvers that replace "to hit", "damage" and even "reflex save", but outside of Illusions I can't wrap my mind around it replacing a Will Save, and replacing Fortitude Save is even more bizarre to me.
I'm finding myself leaning toward using initiator level for the maneuvers, although I can definitely see using perception as the key skill for Diamond Mind. Perhaps answers to my question above will convince me otherwise.
It's really just a matter of changing the fluff. Consider a Diamond Mind description along these lines: "The path of the Diamond Mind is one of clarity. Practitioners constantly seek an intense awareness of both themselves and their surroundings, a focus that can seem almost supernatural at times to an uninitiated outsider; Diamond Mind warriors sometimes react to attacks seemingly before they begin, and possess an uncanny ability to discern the weaknesses of their foes and strike for them unerringly. The followers of the Diamond Mind discipline turn that same awareness inward as well, allowing them to strengthen their wills and correct for the slightest failings in their techniques."
There's no real resource cost to those these abilities though
Sure there is.
For Warblades, you're wasting time by using none of your class abilities (you cannot refresh maneuvers in a turn in which you've used a maneuver, including an immediate action counter in the preceding turn). You're also unable to use that maneuver again for at least one round, which can be quite important. I've more than once caught Warblades with their pants down by using two spells with the same save in rapid succession (don't need to be on the same turn or even on consecutive turns, since it's extremely rare in practice for a Warblade to refresh every other turn).
For Crusaders, you're spending the certainty of having the power available. The Crusader refresh mechanic is entirely out of the player's control and entirely random. It's quite possible that, once you use a maneuver, you won't get access to it for another 6 rounds. If you need it again between now and then, you're boned.
For Swordsages, you're wasting an entire round of actions to refresh a single maneuver, making it even more limiting than the Warblade. I've only ever seen a Swordsage refresh his maneuvers in combat twice throughout an entire campaign (Rise of the Runelords). Both of those times were because he had a set of maneuvers readied that were wildly inappropriate for the fight and he only had one or two maneuvers that would actually do him any good, so he had no choice.
For all three classes, you've only got an extremely limited number of maneuvers available per fight. This is particularly noticeable with the Warblade. For most of your career, you have 5 or fewer maneuvers you can ready, and those are the majority of your class abilities. You have to ration those 5 maneuvers between strikes, boosts, and counters. The often-cited Diamond Mind save boosters, for example, take 3/5 of your readied maneuvers, leaving you only two strikes, and usually being dead weight because it's a very rare fight where you have to make a Fort, a Reflex, AND a Will save. Then you add Iron Heart Surge (another commonly cited ability) and all of a sudden you only have room for one, single, strike.
If that's not a resource cost I don't know what is.
I've played all three Bo9S base classes and DM'd for two of the three (crusader and swordsage). In my experience, martial adepts are even more focused on intelligently using their resources than spellcasters are, because their resources are more limited.
I agree with Zurai. I have thoroughly read the ToB and it has enough limiting factors that it is not overpowered. I have also played a rogue-ish character with a few levels of Swordsage cut in. It gave him some very handy abilities, but those abilities are only usable in combat, and only usable once per combat, unless you decide to waste your entire turn refreshing them. The most useful things it gave me access to were stances and feats. They can provide anyone character with some very nice abilities, but definitely not overpowered, as long as your player and your DM know and abide by the rules in the book. In fact, the most "overpowered" character in that adventure at the time was a half-orc barbarian. His feat selection and weapon was designed around killing things with a single charge. After he declared I charge, the fight was over (at least for whatever he was charging). The most powerful strike I can remember in the ToB does 15d6 and some other nasty effects, but required a 9th initiator lvl (which I believe has the same lvl requirement as a wizard for casting 9th lvl spells), and it’s a standard action, so no full attack that round. However, before this guy retired his barbarian he did like 150 + damage with a single charge, and he didn’t even max out his rolls or crit. I’m not bashing him at all, the character was awesome, but 10d6 for a standard attack isn’t that bad at the lvl he should be to use it. A rogue of about the same lvl could deliver around 8d6 with sneak attack and that is before you add any extra weapon damage and feats, and a rogue who is good at what he does and works well with his party can get sneak attack almost every time he swings his blade, even on full attack rounds.
I think Perceptions would be a good fit if you aren't going to use the PF version of concentration checks.
What sorts of balance issues, specifically? I'm honestly curious, because it may be something I've overlooked. I've allowed ToB since it came out, and haven't had any real issues, but I'll admit that I haven't run a ton of games. So I'd love to hear some of the balance issues people have had with it.Invent a new skill... call it Centering or something like that.
Quite frankly though, I see balance issues with most of the Tome of Battle stuff in a 3.5/Pathfinder campaign.
There is a thread called _______ is overpowered....... and ToB gets discussed in it for a good number of post. *My opening post is not a swipe at anyone and is explained in greater detail later on
*Some people felt insulted by my initial post, and later I saw why so I figured I had better put that out there.
There is a thread called _______ is overpowered....... and ToB gets discussed in it for a good number of post. *My opening post is not a swipe at anyone and is explained in greater detail later on
*Some people felt insulted by my initial post, and later I saw why so I figured I had better put that out there.
I was actually planning on looking through that thread today, thanks for the heads up.
If you're allowing psionics, I'd consider using the Autohypnosis skill (or even just integrate it if you're not using psionics).
The skill itself is useful, but no more so than some existing skills (like Acrobatics or Perception), it has the same feel in terms of fluff (Diamond mind is meant to be about focus and mental power).
I'm not too fond of the "Just use their level + modifier" roll, since theres a little more to it than that. If a martial character wants to use manouvers from other schools (and, considering that there aren't enough 1st level manouvers in some schools to focus exclusivly at 1st level anyway), the skills act as a balance of sorts, meaning you can't simply mix and match - you need to spend skill points here and there.
Being able to ignore one skill simply brings up the question of "Why not ignore the other skills too?". Likewise, theres certain advantages to keeping it a seperate skill (for instance, some of the Paizo skill feats become alot more useful for martial characters).
Agreed, the new PF system for concentration checks is definitely not balanced with the skill check that the school was designed around. If you are going to use ToB with PF I would say a skill substitution is definitely the way to go.
That's my take on it.
The description of Autohypnosis seems like a good match even if you don't intend to use Psionics in your campaign.
I would not hastily add another skill to the list though, it seems PF was trying to roll a lot of skills together and in that spirit I think almost everything in the DM school fits perfectly with Perception, which is something the character would probably get anyway, whereas Autohypnosis (if you added it) would only be taken to satisfy the class requirement.
Yes you will have to add some "fluff" to the Perception skill in order to make it fit with certain elements of the DM school; I think something along the lines of: Anyone can hone their senses to see that which others do not; to hear that which others cannot. The Discipline of the Diamond Mind teaches one not only to see and hear things easily missed by others, but to look inside one’s self pinpointing the slightest weakness and diagnosing it before it becomes a fatal flaw. An inward perception is required if you wish to succeed here. You will learn this, or you will shatter.