Eh, make the spell more like the ring. Let the spell summon as many arrows/bolts/stones as you have caster levels so at least your wizard can have some ammo on hand for his Launch Bolt cantrip, or for throwing Magic Weapon on.
This would be worth a first level spell. Actually I would make the effect identical to the ring. Caster touches a bow and for 1 minute per level any time the bow is drawn back a notched arrow appears on the bow.
Does anyone have any rules for temporary magic items?
I was thinking of magic arrows that can only be used once.
Magic arrows CAN only be used once. There is a 50% chance of recovery if you miss but if they hit they are expended.
The disposable nature of ammunition is priced into the fact that you get 50 for the price of a comparable permanent weapon.
You make some good points and ask a great question. The ammunition rules appear to be more for game balance at the sacrifice of logical consistency. For example, if you put fletching on a magical spear and shot it from a giant's longbow, would it vanish upon striking its target? As many have suggested, some useful house rules would be most helpful here.
Some ideas for house rules:
1. Give players the option of purchasing 50 at the regular price that are destroyed when they strike or only a few (say 3 or 5) that are as durable as any other magical item and can be used again and again. That is, 8,300 gp for 50 one-shot arrows, or 8,300 gp for 3 permanent arrows.
2. It does not make good sence that a crooked non-magical arrow shot from a magical bow would be equal to a finely crafted magical arrow in accuracy. In archery you need both a quality bow and a quality arrow to shoot with accuracy. Therefore, another possible house rule would be to allow the bonuses of magical ammunition to stack with the bonuses of the magical weapon. For balance you could say that ammunition can't be enchanted above an effective +2 or +3 bonus. Certainly, if the bonuses could stack it would provide the incentive for players to buy magical ammunition which would address one of your concerns.
3. A third idea that does not require modification of the rules is simply to have vendors of magical equipment sell ammunition at a rate of 1 for 1/50 cost. It would be natural that vendors would do this. An enchanter crafts 50 +1 flame arrows but sells them for 166 gp each. He might even sell them for 176 each and make more in the long run. Players may enjoy the option of being able to buy a couple of arrows without having to drop 8300 gp. Vendors could have a selection of energy types available for purchase.
Don't know if any of these will help you but thanks for your post. It is an issue that has bothered me as well.
#1 - Not a bad idea, then the character could get 3 +1 flaming, 3 +1 electricity, etc. I would extend that pricing model to thrown only weapons also (javalin, darts)
#2 - Stacking is the big issue with bows. The fact that the elemental/ bane effects stack with the bow already makes them a very powerful choice. This is the opposite of helping that issue.
I would almost suggest the reverse. Where more powerful bows require more powerful arrows. Then you could reduce the price of ammo at lower levels without making it crazy cheap at higher levels. Perhaps the arrow doesn't activate unless it has a higher level enchantment than the bow... thats a big nerf to ammunition weapons though.
#3 - I kind of think most GMs already give this option.
And Thanks for reading and thinking about my posts.
You make some good points and ask a great question. The ammunition rules appear to be more for game balance at the sacrifice of logical consistency. For example, if you put fletching on a magical spear and shot it from a giant's longbow, would it vanish upon striking its target? As many have suggested, some useful house rules would be most helpful here.Does anyone have any rules for temporary magic items?
I was thinking of magic arrows that can only be used once.
Magic arrows CAN only be used once. There is a 50% chance of recovery if you miss but if they hit they are expended.
The disposable nature of ammunition is priced into the fact that you get 50 for the price of a comparable permanent weapon.
You might be overthinking it a bit.
I doubt that arrows and bolts just poof away into a wisp of smoke any more than your hypothetical spear fired from the giant's bow.
What's far more likely is:
1. The arrowhead is generally inserted into a split in the arrow shaft. You take a knife and split the wood, insert the head, then bind the wood around the head with string, thread, or maybe even wire. Impact of any kind tends to drive the head deeper into the shaft, splitting the shaft more and more until the shaft becomes useless. This can happen on the first hit.
2. People shot with an arrow often grab the exposed arrow shaft and break it off because it's in the way.
3. People sometimes yank an arrow out of their body, which often strips off the head and leaves it inside them.
4. People and beasts of all descriptions who die while an arrow is in them often fall on that arrow shaft, breaking it.
5. Simply firing an arrow, and even moreso a bolt, often splits the back end as the force of the string applies too much pressure against the back of the arrow/bolt, splitting the nock and ruining the shaft.
6. Firing an arrow often strips off the fletching. As the fletching passes along the bow or crossbow frame a feather may be stripped off, or damaged enough that the wind strips it off. Shafts that bury deep enough, or pass through arms, legs, etc., can strip off fletching in the target that is struck. Ammo that misses can strip off fletching in the trees, bushes, etc., or against the ground.
7. Sometimes an arrow just might be lost. Given the ranges involved, missing with an arrow or bolt might mean your ammow is a couple hundred feet away, lost in tall grasses, weeds, underbrush, and even maybe buried in soft sand or dirt or sunk to the bottom of a lake or river. Very hard to find. Like golfers, many bowmen may just decide to buy more rather than to spend all day looking for the missing ammo.
8. The worst thing you can do to an arrow or a bolt is to fire it point blank or nearly point blank at a shield, breastplate, etc. Even if it penetrates and injures the victim, it will certainly be damaged beyond reusability passing through that metal.
9. An arrow that misses and strikes something solid instead, like a castle wall, a dungeon wall, or even a solid tree trunk, will take far more damage than it would have by simply striking flesh and would certainly be damaged beyond likely reusability.
All of this stuff can render an arrow unsuitable for reuse.
Sure, a competent fletcher can reset an arrowhead, or renock a shaft, or reglue fletchings, or whatever. But he can also make a new arrow. Parts can be scavenged, such as collecting the damaged arrows and removing the arrow heads to use them to make new arrows.
None of which involves just poofing the ammo into nonexistence.
Some ideas for house rules:
1. Give players the option of purchasing 50 at the regular price that are destroyed when they strike or only a few (say 3 or 5) that are as durable as any other magical item and can be used again and again. That is, 8,300 gp for 50 one-shot arrows, or 8,300 gp for 3 permanent arrows.
Permanent magical arrows are a cool idea. But don't forget the destruction of ammunition applies even to ordinary ammunition, so permanent magic doesn't solve the problem of the low-level adventurer watching his quiver of normal arrows dwindle throughout his adventure.
2. It does not make good sence that a crooked non-magical arrow shot from a magical bow would be equal to a finely crafted magical arrow in accuracy. In archery you need both a quality bow and a quality arrow to shoot with accuracy. Therefore, another possible house rule would be to allow the bonuses of magical ammunition to stack with the bonuses of the magical weapon. For balance you could say that ammunition can't be enchanted above an effective +2 or +3 bonus. Certainly, if the bonuses could stack it would provide the incentive for players to buy magical ammunition which would address one of your concerns.
Don't forget that in order to enchant those magical arrows, they must be masterwork. There is no such thing as a crooked masterwork arrow, so any arrow suitable for enchanting is already as accurate as a non-magical arrow can be.
3. A third idea that does not require modification of the rules is simply to have vendors of magical equipment sell ammunition at a rate of 1 for 1/50 cost. It would be natural that vendors would do this. An enchanter crafts 50 +1 flame arrows but sells them for 166 gp each. He might even sell them for 176 each and make more in the long run. Players may enjoy the option of being able to buy a couple of arrows without having to drop 8300 gp. Vendors could have a selection of energy types available for purchase.
Oh yeah, already doing this. No need to sell them in groups of 50.
Yeah... option #2 doesn't really work now that I've thought about it a bit. It's a weird problem.
6gp for +1 to hit isn't highway robbery at low levels, anyway.The +1 will disappear if you have a magic bow but yes.
Right, ergo "low levels." At medium levels it's a slight offset to how cheap they are which, as Dennis rightfully points out, gets pretty darn cheap.
Here's an idea: don't let arrows stack with a bow at all, and make the arrow dominant. The bow can only pass its magic to a mundane arrow, so if you put a +1 Flaming arrow on a +3 Shocking bow, you've got a +1 Flaming attack.
Since magic ammunition by definition is a temporary magic item it should be a special case of the weapon creation rules.
Instead of 2000 x bonus^2 I will use 750 x bonus^2
+1 2000 -> 750
+2 8000 -> 3000
+3 18000 -> 6750
+4 32000 -> 12000
+5 50000 -> 18750
If you want a stack of bane dragon arrows 750+300 = 1050gp
If you need holy, bane giant, flaming burst arrows 18750+300 = 19050gp
Another idea is to make ammunition permanent. Leave the 50% destroyed rule for missing but make them 100% recoverable. If the archer can pick over the bodies for his ammunition then let him. There will always be the time that the enemies run with a few arrows in their hides or the time he must run from the battle himself.
No matter how careful you are there will be a few lost here and there. That would be a great explanation for finding 6 +3 arrows in that orc's treasure or those 20 bane dragon arrows in the dragon horde.
6gp for +1 to hit isn't highway robbery at low levels, anyway.The +1 will disappear if you have a magic bow but yes.Right, ergo "low levels." At medium levels it's a slight offset to how cheap they are which, as Dennis rightfully points out, gets pretty darn cheap.
Here's an idea: don't let arrows stack with a bow at all, and make the arrow dominant. The bow can only pass its magic to a mundane arrow, so if you put a +1 Flaming arrow on a +3 Shocking bow, you've got a +1 Flaming attack.
So when you fire a magic arrow from a magic bow you treat the bow as being non-magic.
Ok but why? What will that solve?
So when you fire a magic arrow from a magic bow you treat the bow as being non-magic.
Ok but why? What will that solve?
Stacking effects on magic weapons.
Ok but why? What will that solve?
As Dennis has pointed out, magic arrows are already a reasonably cheap way to bypass DR at high levels. You can have a +5 Distance Seeking bow, and a quiver full of +1 Flaming, +1 Shocking, +1 Frost, etc. arrows. For 166gp per shot, you have whatever energy is most effective against your enemy and +5, Distance, Seeking; compare to 30,000gp to add just one of those energy types to the bow itself.
Making them cheap enough to be useful at low levels causes them to be pitifully cheap at high levels. The stacking is already a bit cheesy, and now the cost is outright negligible. Axe the stacking and things look pretty even to me; a +5 Distance Seeking Flaming arrow is 966gp, but maybe you can do without some of that... +4 Flaming is only 381gp, and will get the job done.
It creates tactical decision points, which is always a good thing IMO.
Ok but why? What will that solve?As Dennis has pointed out, magic arrows are already a reasonably cheap way to bypass DR at high levels. You can have a +5 Distance Seeking bow, and a quiver full of +1 Flaming, +1 Shocking, +1 Frost, etc. arrows. For 166gp per shot, you have whatever energy is most effective against your enemy and +5, Distance, Seeking; compare to 30,000gp to add just one of those energy types to the bow itself.
Making them cheap enough to be useful at low levels causes them to be pitifully cheap at high levels. The stacking is already a bit cheesy, and now the cost is outright negligible. Axe the stacking and things look pretty even to me; a +5 Distance Seeking Flaming arrow is 966gp, but maybe you can do without some of that... +4 Flaming is only 381gp, and will get the job done.
It creates tactical decision points, which is always a good thing IMO.
For bypassing DR it will still be cheep. I can buy a stack of cold iron arrows for 2gp or silver for 3gp. That and a holy bow will get past almost everything.
Arrows already don't stack. A +1 arrow from a +2 bow does exactly nothing under the current rules. By not allowing any stacking you are denying the only reason to buy arrows.
I don't understand how you consider 166gp per shot as cheep. For that cost the only thing you gain is an extra 1d6 damage. A dedicated high level archer will go through 6 arrows every round if a combat lasts 5 rounds he has spent 4980. What other character will expend 5k in equipment in a single combat?
Actually I buy arrows for the "Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Keen, Wounding, Spell Storing, Ghost Touch, seeking +1" On top of my "+5 Speeding Distance" bow...
Cause you know getting +19 equivalent is nice. Of course that's not what I'm going to do for every shot, but when I need it I can have exactly what I need for the situation, and I'm willing to pay a bit more for the versatility.
You can just not buy magical arrows for most fights. That's perfectly viable and you'll still get everything from the bow.
However when you really need it you can pull out the arrow and get more out of it than anyone else can from any other weapon. No other weapon can get that +19 equivalency that a bow and arrow can (excluding the crossbow and sling).
Making them cheap enough to be useful at low levels causes them to be pitifully cheap at high levels. The stacking is already a bit cheesy, and now the cost is outright negligible. Axe the stacking and things look pretty even to me; a +5 Distance Seeking Flaming arrow is 966gp, but maybe you can do without some of that... +4 Flaming is only 381gp, and will get the job done.
It creates tactical decision points, which is always a good thing IMO.
I am beginning to like this idea. If you come against a white dragon you would still bust out the +1 flaming arrows and the +1 dragon's bane arrows but every other time you would still have a +5 bow. That puts them on equal terms with the fighter who has a golf bag... actually slightly better terms still because you can buy the arrows in smaller batches.
What are you thinking for the base price? Keeping the current 1/50th permanent item cost or go with something like 1/100th permanent item cost?
A flaming arrow is one of the worst choices for an arrow a much better option is to have a selection of bane arrows.
How are we coming up with a +19 weapon?
A +5 distance haste bow is a +9 item 162,000gp not cheep.
Then you want to spend 200,000gp for each stack of 50 arrows. What will you put on them?
A flaming arrow is one of the worst choices for an arrow a much better option is to have a selection of bane arrows.
How are we coming up with a +19 weapon?
A +5 distance haste bow is a +9 item 162,000gp not cheep.
Then you want to spend 200,000gp for each stack of 50 arrows. What will you put on them?
You are using a strawman on the last one, as it has no bearing on the coversation at hand, however I would probably go with an efficient quiver or two stored in a handy haversack with an additional quiver on my hip.
First off a +5 Distance speed Bow isn't cheap, but that's why you put the enhancements you want all the time on the bow.
As to how we are doing a +19 equilavent weapon:
The bow is +5 with +5 worth of enhancements on it. Then you get an arrow that is +1 with +9 worth of enhancements on it. So you shoot a +5 with the +5 worth of enhancements from the bow and the + 9 worth of enhancements from the arrow. That's a +5 arrow with +14 worth of enhancements or the equivalent of a +19 shot, and that should be expensive. It should not be something you do regularly.
Normally you'll simply use regular non magical arrows. When you face something special then you'll use a few of your special arrows (which will probably not be the super deluxe +10 equivalent models) that are +1 holy and flaming or holy and ghost touch whatever you need (+5 arrows equivalent). Unlike the poor smuck over there with a sword he has to use everytime, unless he wants something special.
Unlike him you know you'll always have those base enhancements on your bow, and you can change up everything else with special arrows -- if the sword swinger wants something else he has to get a completely new weapon.
******
Finally
You do not have to buy magical arrows, simply use a magical bow IF you want something more then use magical arrows too. Otherwise just the bow.
I really don't see the trouble with the cost of magical arrows. High level characters with GP to burn will make cheerful use of them, and low level characters would probably never buy the things, but would use them in a pinch if they found some and it were a choice between living and dying rather than trying to take them home to sell them to those cheerful merchants who always buy stuff.
I don't understand how you consider 166gp per shot as cheep. For that cost the only thing you gain is an extra 1d6 damage. A dedicated high level archer will go through 6 arrows every round if a combat lasts 5 rounds he has spent 4980. What other character will expend 5k in equipment in a single combat?
Ok, since you still don't seem to get this. Archers have the option of enchanting their bows, just exactly like every other weapon can be enchanted. So they don't have to spend anything to be on EQUAL TERMS with melee fighters anything they do with their arrows is GRAVY which isn't available to non-ammunition because you can't change a sword to +1d6 Dragon's bane. As Anthony pointed out the bow is equivalent to a much MUCH more expensive non-ammunition weapon. (Though probably not +19)
If you don't like spending money on ammunition you don't have to, just spend it on the bow and you are on already on equal terms. If you want GRAVY it's going to cost a bit more.
Tejon's suggestion makes the arrows so they are no longer gravy, they are suddenly back on equal terms with every weapon in the game.
You do not have to buy magical arrows, simply use a magical bow IF you want something more then use magical arrows too. Otherwise just the bow.
Werd Bro! Use the bow and benefit just like everyone else. Spend a little gp for the bonus damage arrows do.
If you want to talk about the expensive pricing for throwing weapons or shiriken (sp?) then I'm all over that.
What are you thinking for the base price? Keeping the current 1/50th permanent item cost or go with something like 1/100th permanent item cost?
I'm using Dulsin's idea, change the cost multiplier from 2000 to 750 and not requiring a base +1 enhancement. This is based on the following comparison:
Masterwork: 300 gp.
+0 Flaming: 750 gp.
Total: 1050 gp, or 21 per arrow.
-versus-
Oil of Flame Arrow (affects 50): 750 gp, or 15 per arrow.
Finally
You do not have to buy magical arrows, simply use a magical bow IF you want something more then use magical arrows too. Otherwise just the bow.
OK so you are saying that the current ammunition rules are fine as they are now and possibly over powered by players with infinite amounts of cash?
I have always avoided the games that tossed out millions of gold so that has not been a problem for me. When my friend or I run it is about level 15 before you see or can afford a +5 weapon and the cleric is usually begging for extra diamonds to cover resurrection costs.
In that case then my problem must be unique because our stingy GM's tend to give out less than the "normal" recommended treasure amounts.
because you can't change a sword to +1d6 Dragon's bane.
Actually, there are quite a number of alchemical compounds (silversheen, et al) you can buy to give temporary effects to your weapon, and a number of spells (keen edge, etc) as well.
because you can't change a sword to +1d6 Dragon's bane.Actually, there are quite a number of alchemical compounds (silversheen, et al) you can buy to give temporary effects to your weapon, and a number of spells (keen edge, etc) as well.
There are a few specific substances but nowhere near the options you have for magic arrows. Plus you can only use one of them per encounter, they are also not cheap.
I'll note that I'd allow flame arrow to stack with a magic bow. Temporary vs. inherent.
The alchemical additives also stack with the weapon spells, and the weapon spells mostly stack with each other.
I'm using Dulsin's idea, change the cost multiplier from 2000 to 750 and not requiring a base +1 enhancement. This is based on the following comparison:
Masterwork: 300 gp.
+0 Flaming: 750 gp.
Total: 1050 gp, or 21 per arrow.
I could probably live with this though I would leave the +1 requirement in (and since they wouldn't get the benefit of the bow it's probably a good idea anyhow). It puts the pricing of a +1 flaming arrow back up to 42GP(off the top of my head). +1 flaming dragons bane (white dragon killers) would be 84gp and do 1d8+1+(1d6*150%)+2d6 +(STR for composite bows).
I could probably live with this though I would leave the +1 requirement in (and since they wouldn't get the benefit of the bow it's probably a good idea anyhow).
That's the reason I'm comfortable leaving requirement off, actually. At higher levels they're going to want it anyway; at lower levels it makes the arrows affordable enough to consider.
There are a few specific substances but nowhere near the options you have for magic arrows. Plus you can only use one of them per encounter, they are also not cheap.But much, much cheaper than "166gp/shot, miss or no"
The only one I know of is Silver sheen and Keen Edge, 500 and 750gp respectively. So pricing depends on how many attacks per round. At low levels it's more expensive than high levels per attack because you get fewer. I don't know of any flaming or dragons bane oils you can apply to the weapons.
The alchemical additives also stack with the weapon spells, and the weapon spells mostly stack with each other.
Umm... yeah both of the alchemical substances stack with spells. Maybe there is a trove of dragon's bane type elixers out there in non-core?? I don't have a boatload of splat so I have no idea what sort of stuff is out there.
So the arrow overrides the bow, but the cost for the arrows is less?
Sounds like a previous edition. Not that that is a criticism, mind you, and, if that's the way you like it, it's a pretty fair trade, even with the +1 left in. Arrows are cheap enough to be used, but expensive to use all the time. Get a bow enchanted, and you better hope to see enough use to net a positive ROI.
To be honest I'll probably just stick with core. I like thinking about game mechanics though and it's an interesting thought puzzle.
To Duslin
I am saying the current rules are fine, but not because I have millions of gold: I'm saying they are fine because the bow costs the same to be enchanced as the sword, and has the same effect with every attack -- just like the sword would.
Add to this the fact you can add abilities from your arrows on top of what the bow gives you, and you are better than the sword. This is made up for in the extra cost you incur for doing so. IF you want more than is possible for any other weapon, then you pay more for the arrows.
IF you want your attacks to be just as effective as everyone else's, with no extra benefit they have no means of getting, then you only get a magical bow.
It's only for the extra you pay extra for, like you said you could just stick with a +5 speeding holy bow and do just as good as the sword guy, for the same cost as he paid for his +5 speeding holy sword.
As you like but I don't like that a quiver of 50 arrows that will be gone in a single night costs the same as the bow you shoot them with.
As you like but I don't like that a quiver of 50 arrows that will be gone in a single night costs the same as the bow you shoot them with.
One thing we did house rule:
If the arrow was made of adamantine and had the returning property on the arrow then it wasn't destroyed if it hit.
However we never have really had a problem with magical arrows since everyone just goes for the magical bow, and if any magical arrows are found they either go to someone that is mainly melee, for those occasions when they can't close with an opponent, or were gravy for the archer.
Consider:
If your players only using magic arrows which they find, because they're not really worth purchasing or crafting...
Why the hell would anyone else make them?
People who lead armies.
How expensive would it be to equip your entire archery division with a +1 bow?
Answer: A whole lot more than it would cost to give each of them 5 +1 arrows. Giving line troops a handful of magical arrows is far more cost-effective than giving every single one a magical bow.
This also applies to smaller groups, too. For example, a bandit group might have a little under 50 +1 arrows between them.
Consider:
If your players only using magic arrows which they find, because they're not really worth purchasing or crafting...
Why the hell would anyone else make them?
Please Please Please....
Economics in this game are just as broken as physics. Magic arrows are there because the game gods declared they are there. End of story.
Pricing on magic items is all based on game balance and has zero to do with actual supply and demand.
Consider:
If your players only using magic arrows which they find, because they're not really worth purchasing or crafting...
Why the hell would anyone else make them?
So they could have versatility with their bow -- they want their gravy! After all the +5 speeding holy bow is great but having DemonBane Axiomatic arrows with it is even better!
Or they might just make a couple for that fight with the pyrohydra, 10 arrows to start things out with is cheaper than a frost bow, and works just as well, after they are done they don't have anything to worry about since they didn't spend that much (8,000/50=160gp x 10 = 1,600gp).
Consider:
If your players only using magic arrows which they find, because they're not really worth purchasing or crafting...
Why the hell would anyone else make them?
Please Please Please....
Economics in this game are just as broken as physics. Magic arrows are there because the game gods declared they are there. End of story.
Pricing on magic items is all based on game balance and has zero to do with actual supply and demand.
If economics is broken that is the fault of the GM not the game system.
When I drop a village down on the map there is a reason for it to exist economically. If a farming village is looking for help dealing with a dragon they will not be able to pay 50,000gp no matter how great your diplomacy role is.If economics doesn't matter to you then don't worry about it. This is for those of us who think it is strange that the ammunition for a weapon costs as much as the weapon.
Those of us who care enough to work out something that works economically will use this rule. Then we can get back to calculating how long it will take to craft a masterwork set of full plate and use that as a standard to pay experts on a monthly basis.
So they could have versatility with their bow -- they want their gravy! After all the +5 speeding holy bow is great but having DemonBane Axiomatic arrows with it is even better!Or they might just make a couple for that fight with the pyrohydra, 10 arrows to start things out with is cheaper than a frost bow, and works just as well, after they are done they don't have anything to worry about since they didn't spend that much (8,000/50=160gp x 10 = 1,600gp).
Has any player ever purchased arrows in your game more than once?
I am betting the answer is no. The reason I think no is because in the years since 3.0 came out I have had 2 players try to buy arrows and they never tried again. That should tell us something.
That's something else that's been bugging me. A blacksmith/armorsmith/weaponsmith isn't an expert, Especially not in my games. It's one skill, and a commoner can do it, same with baker, miller, and the whole lot.
Experts in my games tend more towards sailors, (knowledges needed, swimming needed, profession skill, and some fighting ability for pirates and the like), NPC thief types, town guards, traveling merchants (or performers), diplomats, couriers, and the like.
Professional Combatants are warriors, and most spell casters are simply adepts.
Exceptions do exist, but for the most part I have trouble seeing 'tradesmen' as experts, when everything they do and rely on is a single simple skill.
EDIT: Yes I have had players buy magical arrows multiple times.
1. Fighter bought some dragon bane frost arrows for a red dragon fight, later bought some holy demon bane arrows when he knew he was going after a cult of demon followers, finally bought some for a fight with half red dragon trolls.
2. Archer bought several different types of special arrows in addition to his magical bow. He used them up and swore it was a great investment and bought more of the type he used up.
Both cases I have pointed out already are great reasons to buy magical arrows, and they are seen as a boon when they are found and tend to be used instead of sold.
In short they tend to be the fighter's version of a wand, kept because they are useful.
People who lead armies.
How expensive would it be to equip your entire archery division with a +1 bow?
A worthless question. It's much, much cheaper to have some low-level casters with scrolls of Flame Arrow than do anything you suggest. +1d6 fire is better than +1 to hit and dmg.
And the point stands. With the obscene cost of ammo, why buy/make it?
And you don't equip your entire bow division with magic arrows, btw. You instead equip the elite archer units with magic bows, where they can be handed down to new soldiers and they can use regular arrows from dead companions. +1 using volley fire rules is just too silly!
I'm sorry, this is utterly silly. You expect some lord somewhere, sending out squads of low level archers through the wilderness, each with a +1 arrow in their quiver in case they run into something particularly nasty, to instead be towing along a 1st level wizard with a sucky Stealth check so he could save them a few bucks by reading a scroll of Flame Arrow in case the archer ran into something nasty? What, wizards don't eat and don't have to go on the army payroll, even if they could make stealth checks?
Yes, if the town is attacked, you can have your low level mages running around to use flame arrow for the archers. Or you might consider it useful to simply give your wimpy mages a stack of scrolls of Magic Missile or a few wands of the same and see how they work.
Why bother using +1d6 fire on an item that might miss when you can get 1d4+1 from a magic zot that has no chance of missing?
People who lead armies would consider a whole bunch of small items much more useful than one big one.
What's far more likely is:
1. The arrowhead is generally inserted into a split in the arrow shaft. You take a knife and split the wood, insert the head, then bind the wood around the head with string, thread, or maybe even wire. Impact of any kind tends to drive the head deeper into the shaft, splitting the shaft more and more until the shaft becomes useless. This can happen on the first hit.
2. People shot with an arrow often grab the exposed arrow shaft and break it off because it's in the way.
3. People sometimes yank an arrow out of their body, which often strips off the head and leaves it inside them.
4. People and beasts of all descriptions who die while an arrow is in them often fall on that arrow shaft, breaking it.
5. Simply firing an arrow, and even moreso a bolt, often splits the back end as the force of the string applies too much pressure against the back of the arrow/bolt, splitting the nock and ruining the shaft.
6. Firing an arrow often strips off the fletching. As the fletching passes along the bow or crossbow frame a feather may be stripped off, or damaged enough that the wind strips it off. Shafts that bury deep enough, or pass through arms, legs, etc., can strip off fletching in the target that is struck. Ammo that misses can strip off fletching in the trees, bushes, etc., or against the ground.
7. Sometimes an arrow just might be lost. Given the ranges involved, missing with an arrow or bolt might mean your ammow is a couple hundred feet away, lost in tall grasses, weeds, underbrush, and even maybe buried in soft sand or dirt or sunk to the bottom of a lake or river. Very hard to find. Like golfers, many bowmen may just decide to buy more rather than to spend all day looking for the missing ammo.
8. The worst thing you can do to an arrow or a bolt is to fire it point blank or nearly point blank at a shield, breastplate, etc. Even if it penetrates and injures the victim, it will certainly be damaged beyond reusability passing through that metal.
9. An arrow that misses and strikes something solid instead, like a castle wall, a dungeon wall, or even a solid tree trunk, will take far more damage than it would have by simply striking flesh and would certainly be damaged beyond likely reusability.All of this stuff can render an arrow unsuitable for reuse.
All of which can be fixed rule-wise by using the alchemical archery from Elves of Golarion. Durable Arrows are alchemically wrapped in a special glue to prevent damage to the arrow. Thus the arrow can be used over and over.
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Consider:
If your players only using magic arrows which they find, because they're not really worth purchasing or crafting...
Why the hell would anyone else make them?
Please Please Please....
Economics in this game are just as broken as physics. Magic arrows are there because the game gods declared they are there. End of story.
Pricing on magic items is all based on game balance and has zero to do with actual supply and demand.
The time has come when we are all playing a different game it seems. *sigh*
Anyone with UMD can try, and if he can afford to put +1 arrows in the hands of PATROLS, well, let's hope nobody tells the orcs/gobblins!
That's roleplaying fodder.
How about a wand of Flame Arrow? +1d6 is much better damage, and multiple archers can fire. 5 archers fire, 3 hit, that's +3d6 damage. Mage with MM CL1 fires, that +1d4+1 damage. Those 5 archers can do that for the next 10 rounds, so the Wiz casts on another group. Assuming the same averages, archers do +6d6 damage. Wiz with MM CL9 does +5d4+5, which is actually less. Round 3 the comparison ends.
One wand is a much better prize than one arrow, and a far better target for theft and destruction. It's putting all your eggs in one basket.
My point exactly! Take a large battle. With a wand of Flame Arrow, you can power a division with a few thousand gp instead of tens of thousands!23,000gp = 50 archers with 10 +1 arrows each
2,250gp = 50 archers with 10 flame arrows (1/5 of the wand, base 11,250)For 1/10th the cost the archers do more damage, on average, even with the +5% chance to hit.
A legitimate strategy, but it assumes your wand and wand wielder are well guarded and not on the front lines. And having a well-placed fireball take out the guy with the wand can be like having a well-placed cannonball take out the powder magazine.
Generals would look at all these concerns.
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If you hit your target the arrow is 100% destroyed.That is the best argument I have heard yet for reducing the cost to enchant ammunition. Besides you can not just enchant an arrow to flaming you need to enchant it to +1 flaming.
so the Flaming ammo would cost
8300gp/50= 166gp each
Or dragon bane
8300/50 = 366 each
For those prices you could buy a bag of holding full of healing potions.
You can buy a bag of holding full of heal potions for around 166 gp~366gp?
Damn that's a fine diplomacy skill bonus you have there!
Yes the price to buy 50 arrows of +1 bane giant is 8300gp.
The cost of a cure light wounds potion is 50gp.
Bag of holding is 2500gpFor 8300gp I can buy a type 1 bag of holding and 116 cure potions.
You could get a Hewar's Handy Haversack for 2000 and be able to afford 126 CLW potions but I am not sure if they would all fit.
But you can go ahead and just buy 10 arrows for the cost of 830gp, you can't even get the haversack for that, and a GM that'll let you safely cary around that many gps worth of potions without risk of shattering in a non-magical backpack/sack is just being generous.