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Dissenger:
Banning the book seems a bit uncalled for, at least for the reasons you stated. Simply because it requires a deep level of knowledge of the rules doesn't mean it is bad... all new systems within the game require additional effort to read and grasp (psi, truenaming, vestiges, maneuvers, blah), but the rules on many of those systems are actually more balanced and well written than the core, as long as you actually do understand the rules (psi, so often reviled, was nonetheless a well written work in 3.5).
Further, the statement about just banning "what doesn't work" implies that you are willing to just toss certain things, instead of whole books (divine meta instead of tossing all of... C.Div was it?). Why not just remove the individual maneuvers that bother you, instead of the whole book, which is in large part not beset by the rules weirdness of IHS?
I did, I didn't say I banned ToB, I said I just banned IHS and Divine Metamagic.
I merely stated that if as a starting GM you don't have the time to learn the Bo9 you'd probably be better off banning it until you have time to learn the book and how it works.
This was the answer from Sage.
Anti-Magic Aura is an effect that has a duration of longer than one round, therefore is fair game by the raw.
Mass Spells usually are effects with a duration of longer than one round, and when you end the effect, it was ruled all other targets were also freed of it, as the effect was a blanket over all the other.
By what they have answered and the raw, these are completely legitimate uses of Iron Heart Surge.
By RAW it does end the anti-magic affect, but I touched on that in the last post.
By RAW "personal" only affects you, so no matter what the sage or customer service says, unless errata came out it only affects the Warblade, now if you want to take someone's word over the rules that is up to you, but to ignore the rules to try to win a debate is another issue altogether.
You also saw where I bolded. That means that many of the answers are speculation. As a DM I would look over them to see which ones made sense, since they dont say which ones were answered by customer service, and which ones were answered by the writers of the book.
Actually a Mass Spell is one effect that targets multiple people. The ruling wasn't that you end the effect for yourself, just that you end the effect. So when you end a Mass spell, it ends for you and everyone else. Also to clarify while it says Personal, only affects you, that means not that the Iron Heart Surge can't have effects that affect other people. Contact Other Plane ostensibly allows you to interact with someone else, but by your ruling I couldn't cast the spell, because it affects only me. Technically it does affect them too. The side effects can affect other people, its just you must be the primary person.
Its personal so you don't Iron Heart Surge your friend out of a dominate.
The common house rule is that Iron Heart Surge only stops the effect for yourself. This is a house rule, not at all the Raw, which someone else is saying was perfectly balanced.
I never said (nor did anyone else say) it was "perfectly" balanced, stop putting words in peoples mouths... What I said was the system was not so overpowering to be unbalanced for melee characters versus the core casting classes. No system is perfectly balanced, there are always loop holes and the whole IHS pales in comparisson to oh, lets say, Polymorph maybe? I believe my point still stands that the system is looked down on because people don't like "things" that can easily be taken care of with minimal effort and little rules understanding and they view them as broken rather then the system actually being broken. I'm sure for every point you'd like to make against ToB there is at least one, if not more, that can be shown in the published rules. Occasional loop holes don't make a system broken and that is what you are trying to say about the ToB rule set.
My problem isn't the fact it exists.
My problem is the effect exists as such a low level, and does such ridiculous things at that level. Its one thing to have a surge of strength to overcome a hold person, quite another to end a Dominate monster in effect on you from a 20th level caster, at level 5.
It should exist, it was already pointed out that spells can cause multiple status effects (or the same effect over and over again) which left a melee class floating "dead in the water" because there was no way for them to get rid of it short of outside influences or had to invest so much in to items you became a walking christmas tree and your abilities were based on your magical ornaments, how is that balanced? I'm all for party play but sometimes iconic classes just aren't in the party make up and you are completely screwed at that point. At the point the ability comes into play magic users have been tossing status effects around for well, their whole career. Add in it takes an entire round (IIRC) to use so you just sit there while the magic user tosses another status effect on you and it becomes an action sink. The magic user is slowly whittling you down while you try to fight off the effects - this is typically a losing proposition no matter how you look at it.
The fact it ends an effect that is present on you, with no miss chance, and no taking into account the strength of that effect is the ridiculous part. Move it to Iron Heart 8 and we can talk then, because then its in line with other effects like it.I just don't see the fifth level Warblade besting the 20th level casters strongest spell so easily.
As an 8th rank ability it is practically useless at that point wizards have so many spells that you basically just sit there as a target as the caster nukes you from orbit, just like all the other melee classes at that level, so again, where is this balance issue you are complaining about? Yes more options but no, I don't see how they are overpowering like you some how became convinced they are.
5th level warblade vs 20th level caster
Caster casts uber status effect on warblade!
Warblade spends a round breaking effect.
Caster: "Wow thats new, can you do it again?"
Warblade: "Um, no?"
Caster: "Huh, sucks for you then doesn't it?"
Warblade: "Yeah it kinda does doesn't it..."
Caster casts less uber status effect on warblade!
Caster wins, again, as usual.
While we're on the topic of trumping uber high level abilities, what about immunity to fear or disease or poison? I'm sure you'd say that because they are limited they are ok. Well maybe, but what about that character who gets that ability and it is completely USELESS because they never run into anything that uses those attacks. It's like the rogue in and undead campaign. When the melee classes are already starting to lag behind an ability that has UTILITY (like most of the casters spells) is a GOOD thing. That is what IHS is, it gives the character who is worried about things like that, the ability to do something about it rather than level up and get a half useless ability that comes into play some small fraction of the time. This in turn allows the DM to plan adventures without having to worry about screwing a party or customizing the adventure to the party for lack of certain classes - which in turn is actually less work for the DM, how about that?
Honestly, I think Iron Heart Surge should do an effective caster level check contest, as with dispelling, with the hopes of carving a personal exemption, such that the Big Bad wizard gets to wrestle with the guy with the sword, the wizard's magic versus the warrior's determination.
And the refresh ability with dispelling is already a problem. My last game, the paladin got a Holy Avenger, which has Greater Dispel Magic once per round as a standard action. For noncombat situations, this consisted of him holding the sword and saying "Click.... Click.... Click...." until the dispelling succeeded. Much like a warlock's Voracious Dispelling and other similar unlimited effects.
This is less a problem of the rules and more an issue with you allowing the characters to take the time to do it consistantly. This is basically on par with the 10 min work day. I'm not saying that you are doing anything wrong but the source of your complaint is missing the actual target. The most common and easy remedy to the 10 min work day is interrupting them (via random encounter or some such) and I would suggestion something along those lines for your problem. Also things like contigencies for dispel would be very useful for discouraging the "click click click" mentality. Something like "Click, click, ohh it dispelled!" and a "Roll XYZ save please, could you?" as a mass insanity or some such goes off would make them more than a little weary I'd imagine.
I may have to rule that you get only one attempt per dispelling source, and consumable resources, including memorized spells and spell slots, count as separate sources.I have no problem with the concept of a warrior wresting off a wizard's spell through force of will, apart from the idea that the warrior's will is always and without question by the RAWs raw cheese more powerful than the wizard's magic.
I have heard it said, more than once, that the Tome of Battle must have been written by someone who really hated wizards. And while wizards can make cool villains, and are the standard ones for the Conan stories, it should also be remembered for play balance that some of them are supposed to be your fellow party members.
And they completely outshine the rest of the party in the later levels, so is it such a bad thing to let the melee characters have their day in the sun turn into two days? Like I said the real curve of power starts to turn to the casters favor during the mid levels, using ToB allows the melee characters to shine a little longer before the casters over take them once and for all.
eh can't we all agree that the Bo9s had some interesting ideal but needs work?
The same thing could be said about the core rules no? And they need even more work (or needed *points to PFRPG*)
ah but one is core, the other is an tacked on extra system that really does not mesh with core. Bo9s is not really a 3.5 book, it's a new system tacked onto 3.5 and it does not work all that well with it
This is less a problem of the rules and more an issue with you allowing the characters to take the time to do it consistantly. This is basically on par with the 10 min work day. I'm not saying that you are doing anything wrong but the source of your complaint is missing the actual target. The most common and easy remedy to the 10 min work day is interrupting them (via random encounter or some such) and I would suggestion something along those lines for your problem. Also things like contigencies for dispel would be very useful for discouraging the "click click click" mentality. Something like "Click, click, ohh it dispelled!" and a "Roll XYZ save please, could you?" as a mass insanity or some such goes off would make them more than a little weary I'd imagine.
Honestly, I think it would annoy my players as much as it would me. A Bogeyman Ex Machina is pretty obvious, and I'm not going to punish players once they've found what should be a safe-ish resting place to work out a problem by dropping down some random monster via a trap door or trapeze harness or teleport spell.
Time to work things out is also part of the game. Rogues find and disable traps all the time, and giving the fighter unlimited dispelling is akin to giving the wizard unlimited Knock spells: It upstages another character class and steps on their shtick.
Fighters are the Cuisinarts with unlimited use of the "Frappe'" button.
And they completely outshine the rest of the party in the later levels, so is it such a bad thing to let the melee characters have their day in the sun turn into two days? Like I said the real curve of power starts to turn to the casters favor during the mid levels, using ToB allows the melee characters to shine a little longer before the casters over take them once and for all.
I don't begrudge anyone their hour in the sun unless that hour upstages everyone else. Unlimited dispelling with 0 chance of failure is something I wouldn't even allow a caster, let alone any of the other classes.
And the utter immunity to everything powers are something that can and should have exemptions if someone else pays the feats, substitution levels or what-have-you. For example, there are enough classes that get True Seeing that it was necessary for gnome illusionist to develop Insidious Illusions (Races of Stone, p. 149) so they'd have a chance of the illusions working anyway. Not a guarantee, just a chance.
As a DM, I think the idea of Insidious Fear, Insidious Poison and Insidious Disease is probably a good thing for those who over-rely on immunity to these things. But Insidious Magic? I think it's more sensible to just block unlimited foolproof dispelling rather than escalate the arms race further.
This will always be a house rule and never the RAW because Bo9 is no longer supported by Wizards, so they're not going to put out anything that builds on it, and since it's not in the SRD, no one else is going to build on it either. But as a house rule? Oh yeah.
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It should exist, it was already pointed out that spells can cause multiple status effects (or the same effect over and over again) which left a melee class floating "dead in the water" because there was no way for them to get rid of it short of outside influences or had to invest so much in to items you became a walking christmas tree and your abilities were based on your magical ornaments, how is that balanced? I'm all for party play but sometimes iconic classes just aren't in the party make up and you are completely screwed at that point. At the point the ability comes into play magic users have been tossing status effects around for well, their whole career. Add in it takes an entire round (IIRC) to use so you just sit there while the magic user tosses another status effect on you and it becomes an action sink. The magic user is slowly whittling you down while you try to fight off the effects - this is typically a losing proposition no matter how you look at it.
I never said that it couldn't happen, merely that there should have been something weaker and move the CURRENT IHS up to IH8. I love how you accuse me of putting words in your mouth when you do the same thing right back. Oh and?
The true curve of ToB is it shines at low levels (like the other melee gear dependent classes with "constant" combat ability -but less gear dependant as they have a few abilities to work with instead of a feat or two) slowly building up at mid levels where it plateu's and then hits the same decline the other melee/combat classes do while the casters increase. They never get to the point where they just plain outdo the casters, they just keep up better than most of the combat classes and fall behind slower. A melee class that wasn't completely outshone by the casters during the "meat" of the adventuring career was a very good thing.
What am I supposed to take from this? That ToB is fine? Because that SEEMS to be what you're arguing rather vehemently. I can almost see the foam flying from your mouth from here. I contest that fine doesn't mean a number of house rules designed to put it back in line with others. This book was designed with 4th ed in mind, not 3.5 and it shows a number of times.
As an 8th rank ability it is practically useless at that point wizards have so many spells that you basically just sit there as a target as the caster nukes you from orbit, just like all the other melee classes at that level, so again, where is this balance issue you are complaining about? Yes more options but no, I don't see how they are overpowering like you some how became convinced they are.
5th level warblade vs 20th level caster
Caster casts uber status effect on warblade!
Warblade spends a round breaking effect.
Caster: "Wow thats new, can you do it again?"
Warblade: "Um, no?"
Caster: "Huh, sucks for you then doesn't it?"
Warblade: "Yeah it kinda does doesn't it..."
Caster casts less uber status effect on warblade!
Caster wins, again, as usual.
Really? Are you REALLY going to argue this point? Diamond mind fixes that entire problem there... The highest DC I've seen unbuffed was a 27 for a ninth level spell. This is entirely doable with a concentration check using diamond mind maneuvers.
Oh, and you forgot the swift action recharge you can also do to get it back.
While we're on the topic of trumping uber high level abilities, what about immunity to fear or disease or poison? I'm sure you'd say that because they are limited they are ok. Well maybe, but what about that character who gets that ability and it is completely USELESS because they never run into anything that uses those attacks. It's like the rogue in and undead campaign. When the melee classes are already starting to lag behind an ability that has UTILITY (like most of the casters spells) is a GOOD thing. That is what IHS is, it gives the character who is worried about things like that, the ability to do something about it rather than level up and get a half useless ability that comes into play some small fraction of the time. This in turn allows the DM to plan adventures without having to worry about screwing a party or customizing the adventure to the party for lack of certain classes - which in turn is actually less work for the DM, how about that?
1) Rogue in an undead campaign is a moot point now. They can sneak attack with impunity for the most part. The only thing they can't is elementals, oozes, and the like.
2) You're right utility is needed, but when does trumping anything regardless of level counted as utility? NO ONE ELSE IN THIS GAME can with 100% assurance end an effect like anti-magic field. Yet a level 5 putz can? I don't think you get the discrepancy there at ALL.
3) Its actually more work for the DM because they would have to DM fiat something if the warblade uses IHS and ends an effect that is needed to create a harrowing encounter. It is similar to this..
DM: Okay guys the Beholder uses his eye to create an anti-magic field after firing its rays.
Warblade: I Iron Heart Surge and end the effect.
DM: Well...there goes the beholder, what should have been a fun and balanced encounter just became a cake walk...
I just did a search for "iron heart surge" and "broken" and turned this up:
>Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
ITT, we have fun abusing the vague wording of Iron Heart Surge. I know it's been done on the WotC boards a lot, but it's about time that /tg/ has a crack at it.
• Many weather effects impose conditions or effects on you. For example, a hurricane imposes the blown-away condition on Medium or smaller creatures, and a thunderstorm has the effect of giving a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks due to the rain. You can use IHS to end the bad weather.
• Being outdoors out at night gives you either concealment (for shadowy illumination) or total concealment (for complete darkness), both of which are effects. You can use IHS to end the night and presumably make the sun come up so that it's not dark any more.
• Gravity is listed down as a planar trait that has an effect on all creatures within the plane. You can use IHS to eradicate gravity from the plane.
• From a practical viewpoint, IHS gives you a 100% chance of busting down, say, an Antimagic Field or a Forcecage. The funny thing is that it can't save you from charm/domination or dazing/paralysis/sleep/stunning, which are ironically the most common cinematic tropes when it comes to overcoming debilitations through sheer willpower.
Now, if by the RAW you can remove gravity from an entire plane, I think there's a little bit too much power there.
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I just did a search for "iron heart surge" and "broken" and turned this up:
Now, if by the RAW you can remove gravity from an entire plane, I think there's a little bit too much power there.>Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
ITT, we have fun abusing the vague wording of Iron Heart Surge. I know it's been done on the WotC boards a lot, but it's about time that /tg/ has a crack at it.
• Many weather effects impose conditions or effects on you. For example, a hurricane imposes the blown-away condition on Medium or smaller creatures, and a thunderstorm has the effect of giving a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks due to the rain. You can use IHS to end the bad weather.
• Being outdoors out at night gives you either concealment (for shadowy illumination) or total concealment (for complete darkness), both of which are effects. You can use IHS to end the night and presumably make the sun come up so that it's not dark any more.
• Gravity is listed down as a planar trait that has an effect on all creatures within the plane. You can use IHS to eradicate gravity from the plane.
• From a practical viewpoint, IHS gives you a 100% chance of busting down, say, an Antimagic Field or a Forcecage. The funny thing is that it can't save you from charm/domination or dazing/paralysis/sleep/stunning, which are ironically the most common cinematic tropes when it comes to overcoming debilitations through sheer willpower.
I just have to laugh...the guys are pretty creative for coming up with that. That just is icing on the proverbial cake.
You want another one? White Raven Tactics...Get two full rounds as a swift action essentially.
How about the fact that while they say multi classing means your effective initiator levels in one ToB class is halved when selecting for the others, no where is this distinction made for the martial study feat?
How about we play the "How many attacks can I make in one turn?" game.
You can play this game at 13 or 17, your choice. One involves Avalanche of Blades, the other involves Time Stands Still.
Here's a hint, Avalanche can do more. It has no maximum on the number of attacks it does.
Kinda like Blade Cascade, that they were forced to put an upper limit on in 4th ed because they realized a level 17 ranger soloing an epic level GOD was a bit much.
There are a number of problems with that book that need to be watched over to make sure it doesn't hamper your game.
To say a GM doesn't have to do as much work because he doesn't have to worry about screwing over players, is lunacy.
Its very RARELY the other way, its more the way of making encounters challenging enough to make it work.
I just did a search for "iron heart surge" and "broken" and turned this up:
Now, if by the RAW you can remove gravity from an entire plane, I think there's a little bit too much power there.>Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
ITT, we have fun abusing the vague wording of Iron Heart Surge. I know it's been done on the WotC boards a lot, but it's about time that /tg/ has a crack at it.
• Many weather effects impose conditions or effects on you. For example, a hurricane imposes the blown-away condition on Medium or smaller creatures, and a thunderstorm has the effect of giving a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks due to the rain. You can use IHS to end the bad weather.
• Being outdoors out at night gives you either concealment (for shadowy illumination) or total concealment (for complete darkness), both of which are effects. You can use IHS to end the night and presumably make the sun come up so that it's not dark any more.
• Gravity is listed down as a planar trait that has an effect on all creatures within the plane. You can use IHS to eradicate gravity from the plane.
• From a practical viewpoint, IHS gives you a 100% chance of busting down, say, an Antimagic Field or a Forcecage. The funny thing is that it can't save you from charm/domination or dazing/paralysis/sleep/stunning, which are ironically the most common cinematic tropes when it comes to overcoming debilitations through sheer willpower.
By RAW those seem legit, but I dont think that was the intent. This is one of those cases where the DM steps in and says " I will allow you to do _____ with this ability."
By RAW those seem legit, but I dont think that was the intent. This is one of those cases where the DM steps in and says " I will allow you to do _____ with this...I just did a search for "iron heart surge" and "broken" and turned this up:
Now, if by the RAW you can remove gravity from an entire plane, I think there's a little bit too much power there.>Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
ITT, we have fun abusing the vague wording of Iron Heart Surge. I know it's been done on the WotC boards a lot, but it's about time that /tg/ has a crack at it.
• Many weather effects impose conditions or effects on you. For example, a hurricane imposes the blown-away condition on Medium or smaller creatures, and a thunderstorm has the effect of giving a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks due to the rain. You can use IHS to end the bad weather.
• Being outdoors out at night gives you either concealment (for shadowy illumination) or total concealment (for complete darkness), both of which are effects. You can use IHS to end the night and presumably make the sun come up so that it's not dark any more.
• Gravity is listed down as a planar trait that has an effect on all creatures within the plane. You can use IHS to eradicate gravity from the plane.
• From a practical viewpoint, IHS gives you a 100% chance of busting down, say, an Antimagic Field or a Forcecage. The funny thing is that it can't save you from charm/domination or dazing/paralysis/sleep/stunning, which are ironically the most common cinematic tropes when it comes to overcoming debilitations through sheer willpower.
I think this is a situation were you gather the group and have a long conversation about whether to use the book or not. Frankly I've been reading it over again and it simply doesn't seems like it belongs.
You want another one? White Raven Tactics...Get two full rounds as a swift action essentially.
Incorrect. You are not your own ally. You cannot target yourself with WRT. Note that you also can't use it on the same ally more than once in a fight unless something else has changed their initiative count in between uses.
How about the fact that while they say multi classing means your effective initiator levels in one ToB class is halved when selecting for the others, no where is this distinction made for the martial study feat?
Why does it need to be made? If you have MA levels when you take the feat, the new maneuver belongs to one of the classes you have MA levels in and thus uses that class's initiator level and recharge mechanic. If you don't, it's a classless maneuver with no recharge and an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level.
How about we play the "How many attacks can I make in one turn?" game.
Avalanche of Blades is significantly weaker than Blade Cascade. BC does double weapon damage per hit and never decreases your chance to hit. Avalanche only does normal weapon damage and reduces your to-hit roll by 4 with every attack. The only way to get an infinite number of attacks with Avalanche is to roll non-stop 20's, because after 6 or so attacks you're going to be well past the point where you can hit with any regularity.
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Thanks for the three examples to back up my assertion that most people who claim Bo9S is overpowered either havn't read the book or just don't understand the rules.
Incorrect. You are not your own ally.
I'm fairly sure that you are considered to be an ally of yourself. If an effect targets an ally that is not yourself, it uses the wording "other ally".
Note that you also can't use it on the same ally more than once in a fight unless something else has changed their initiative count in between uses.
Like delaying for a single tick?
Incidentally, chain them back and forth between two people.
Incorrect. You are not your own ally.I'm fairly sure that you are considered to be an ally of yourself. If an effect targets an ally that is not yourself, it uses the wording "other ally".
Please cite ANY ability or spell that uses the wording "other ally" (EDIT: For the record, I just did a text search on my PFRPG pdf; the string "other ally" is not present in that book). "You are not your own ally" is one of the consistent rulings of 3.5.
Like delaying for a single tick?
Yes, if you're willing to blatantly metagame and risk the Orbital Bovine Launcher.
Well, I'm coming late to this party, and I'm guessing I missed the hay day for the scrap, but I'm here nonetheless, and I gotta say, I agree with the OP's OP. All too often, I see that sort of stuff. Particularly annoying for 3.5 psionics, which get a bad rep for older editions, when it is, in fact, objectively and quantifiably weaker than conventional casting.
Fighters are the Cuisinarts with unlimited use of the "Frappe'" button.
Fighters are supposed to be the Cuisinarts with unlimited use of the 'Frappe' button. The problem is, they aren't. Without extreme optimization, they haven't the damage output to frappe enemies who are actually a credible threat, and they don't have the endurance to survive the attempt for long. Thing is, the Fighter has less sword than the Wizard has spells at higher levels, as a credible threat can generally kill a Fighter within three rounds. In fact, combat in general is won within three rounds (which is distinct from all enemies being dead within three rounds). Meanwhile, the Wizard has a lot more than three rounds' worth of spells, and even has defensive spells that could allow her to last a lot longer should someone go after her.
While the intent is well-understood, the execution, it is not so much there.
I don't begrudge anyone their hour in the sun unless that hour upstages everyone else. Unlimited dispelling with 0 chance of failure is something I wouldn't even allow a caster, let alone any of the other classes.
Setting aside the fact that Iron Heart Surge is indisputably broken and as worded can cure vampirism or any disease, end hunger, thirst, or suffocation, negate aging, resolve any emotional issues of anyone you've ever met, end the Earth's gravity effect, stop the sun's light effect, cool the entire plane of fire, either dry lakes or grant water-breathing depending on how you interpret ending a drowning effect, or bring someone else back from the dead (and thus needs some serious clarification on what it can actually do), it's not unlimited by any stretch. You still expend the maneuver, and then it's gone. If you can't recover it, you're not using it again.
This will always be a house rule and never the RAW because Bo9 is no longer supported by Wizards, so they're not going to put out anything that builds on it, and since it's not in the SRD, no one else is going to build on it either. But as a house rule? Oh yeah.
Actually, there is quite a bit out there building on Tome of Battle. It's quite a popular target for houserules and homebrew, simply because it's a working base for melee classes that actually works quite well.
What am I supposed to take from this? That ToB is fine? Because that SEEMS to be what you're arguing rather vehemently. I can almost see the foam flying from your mouth from here. I contest that fine doesn't mean a number of house rules designed to put it back in line with others. This book was designed with 4th ed in mind, not 3.5 and it shows a number of times.
Then I shall say it.
Tome of Battle is fine. It is far more sound and balanced than the Player's Handbook, which I should think the standard, with far less room for abuse. Yes, there are obvious holes to be plugged, like dispelling the world's natural gravity with Iron Heart Surge, but it's a far more fair and balanced form of melee than core and goes a long way to putting the party members on equal footing. And the PHB has some massively insane crap floating around, itself.
Really? Are you REALLY going to argue this point? Diamond mind fixes that entire problem there... The highest DC I've seen unbuffed was a 27 for a ninth level spell. This is entirely doable with a concentration check using diamond mind maneuvers.
Oh, and you forgot the swift action recharge you can also do to get it back.
27? Seriously? A mage at that point ought to her casting stat at thirty, which makes for 29 before even looking at feats. Plus the swift action is once per day. And as for Diamond Mind, most of the good spells don't even care about the save at all; the wise mage has by and large stopped relying on save-or spells at this point, simply because of how enemy saves explode.
1) Rogue in an undead campaign is a moot point now. They can sneak attack with impunity for the most part. The only thing they can't is elementals, oozes, and the like.
Actually, they can sneak attack oozes and the like, though it requires a Ranger multiclass or something similar. There's a feat out there that allows you to apply... it was either precision damage in general or specifically sneak attack damage to any of your favored enemies, which can include oozes.
Now, if by the RAW you can remove gravity from an entire plane, I think there's a little bit too much power there.
And it's also so glaringly, obviously loony that it's easy to just say "no," and leave it at that.
By RAW those seem legit, but I dont think that was the intent. This is one of those cases where the DM steps in and says " I will allow you to do _____ with this ability."
Honestly, this is one of the reasons why slavish devotion to the RAW is ridiculous.
It should be pointed out--again and again--that game books are written by multiple authors and multiple editors, and the head doesn't always know what the tail is doing and vice versa.
Any "X emulates or obviates things of set Y" power, if not broken to begin with, will swiftly become broken as some other mechanic puts unexpected things in set Y.
Using Iron Heart Surge to negate gravity (or any other effect--let's go to the City of Brass and put it out!) is one of these. Another is to stack multiple templates onto the same monster then make an effigy of it, or just comb the books for the most broken creatures--Did you know how fast you can fly if you make a gold dragon effigy, and at how low of a level? And let's not even get into 3.5 polymorph problems, shall we?
I will probably never allow Bo9 into one of my games, but if I did, I'd impose a number of house rulings for balance, including, but not limited to, the following:
1. Iron Heart Surge is meant to carve a personal exemption to unpleasant things such as charm, domination, poison, infection with lycanthropy and so on, and only for you, even if the same unpleasant thing is affecting your friends and allies. If you are unclear on the sorts of things it should be used for, check out "Heroic Willpower" under the tv tropes index:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicWillpower
Little annoying things, like inconsequential curses from the village witch, can be popped away with it permanently, but not huge horrible things, such as family curses or, you know, coming back as a vampire. A vampire spawn who has Iron Heart Surge can betray master and whack his head off, but he doesn't stop being a vampire after that. If it takes a Wish, Miracle or similar magics to fix a problem, Iron Heart Surge is not a similar magic. Especially if it's not even supposed to be magic. Jeeze.
Similarly, Iron Heart Surge cannot even carve a personal exemption for things such as fog banks, anti-magic zones, or being underwater, whether or not such an effect was brought into being by some caster's spell or through the application of natural physics or supernatural metaphysics. Regardless of how the fog or water got there, you can't see or breathe in the middle of it, and regardless of how the magic left, you don't get to turn it back on just by straining and grunting really hard. Yes, this flies in the face of the RAW, because the RAW are often stupid (and yes it should be "are" since "rules" is plural).
2. Silver Raven Cuisinart, or whatever it's called, that let's you do infinite attacks with the right combo? So not happening. If I can do a google search for "book of nine swords" and "broken" and I can turn it up, expect it to be redlined or heavily house ruled.
3. If I wanted characters with infinitely refreshing powers, I'd play 4e, or Gauntlet back in the 80's with a large roll of quarters. A small number of at will powers is fine, but once it starts to get more than that, I'm going to start raising my eyebrow. And since Baker had some suggestion about turning off one of the refreshing powers, I'd probably take that.
4. Since Concentration was taken out in Pathfinder, and I dislike skill bloat, I don't want to put it back in. Since so many of the powers are based on willpower, I'd look at something else. Maybe Intimidate, which makes sense for a contest of wills, and being Charisma based is a better basis for willpower anyway.
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Weighing in randomly long after this thread is passed crazy, but it is generally a rule around our table that everything but core is "ask first" not use-break-banish. We more or less agreed as a group this is what we will use, and then as a DM I'm not the one saying no you can't, and it is a whole lot less punitive.
3. If I wanted characters with infinitely refreshing powers, I'd play 4e, or Gauntlet back in the 80's with a large roll of quarters. A small number of at will powers is fine, but once it starts to get more than that, I'm going to start raising my eyebrow. And since Baker had some suggestion about turning off one of the refreshing powers, I'd probably take that.
What's the problem with "infinite" use? It's an issue that gets brought up a lot with Tome of Battle and Warlocks and so on, yet it's so... silly. There are only so many times in a day that an ability will be useful, and most ToB abilities are only useful in combat. Yes, Shadow Jaunt's teleportation ability is absurdly useful outside of combat and that one ability could stand to be limited in some manner (or not), but other than that, just about the only thing you can do with an "infinite" supply of maneuvers outside of combat is break stuff.
In combat, there are only so many combat rounds in a day, particularly rounds that matter. A typical encounter at CR is won within three rounds (which is, again distinct from killing all foes), and a typical day is four encounters at CR, for a total of twelve rounds that actually matter. Four sets of three rounds. Not a lot of refreshing within those three rounds. That means any given maneuver isn't likely to be useful more than four times per day, assuming you actually decide to use it every fight. That's far from infinite.
Further, the main advantage of melee is supposed to be that they get "infinite" sword. Or, as you put it, unlimited use of the 'Frappe' button. Warblade is the Fighter that actually has the ability you say the Fighter should have. A genuine, working Frappe button that she can keep hitting to keep kicking butt for as long as she has hit points.
Objecting to the ability to refresh on one hand and saying the Fighter ought to have unlimited use of the 'Frappe' button on the other (keeping in mind that Warblade is Fighter, only fixed) seems rather contradictory to me. You say they ought to have this ability to do their job, then object to their having it when they get it on the terms you laid out.
3. If I wanted characters with infinitely refreshing powers, I'd play 4e, or Gauntlet back in the 80's with a large roll of quarters. A small number of at will powers is fine, but once it starts to get more than that, I'm going to start raising my eyebrow. And since Baker had some suggestion about turning off one of the refreshing powers, I'd probably take that.
You're acting like martial adepts can use every single ability in the book every turn. That's not even close to true.
Crusaders: Only get a maximum of 7 maneuvers readied, and that only at level 20. Refreshing maneuvers is random and not under player control.
Warblades: Also only 7 maximum readied maneuvers, also only getting the 7th at level 20. Refreshing maneuvers is easy (use a swift action and either attack or use a standard action to do nothing) but prevents you from using any maneuvers that round.
Swordsages: Get a whopping 12 maneuvers readied (12th at level 20). Recovery mechanism might as well not even exist for practical combat use -- use a full-round action to refresh one maneuver.
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In other words, Crusaders and Warblades get a small pool of easy-to-refresh powers, which Swordsages get a larger pool of hard-to-refresh powers. Having played both a crusader and a warblade in extended campaigns, only having a few maneuvers readied is hugely limiting. It's especially brutal with Warblades, who only get their 5th maneuver at level 10. Even warlocks pass up warblades by level 8 (and crusaders by level 11), and warlocks are hardly overpowered.
What's the problem with "infinite" use? It's an issue that gets brought up a lot with Tome of Battle and Warlocks and so on, yet it's so... silly. There are only so many times in a day that an ability will be useful, and most ToB abilities are only useful in combat. Yes, Shadow Jaunt's teleportation ability is absurdly useful outside of combat and that one ability could stand to be limited in some manner (or not), but other than that, just about the only thing you can do with an "infinite" supply of maneuvers outside of combat is break stuff.
So you'd have no trouble with a wizard getting infinite Disintegrates or infinite Fireballs? All you can do with those is break stuff too.
The warlock and the ToB classes both effectively have infinite spells. We're not calling them that, but that's what they are: magical effects with more power than just picking a lock or lopping off someone's head.
And it's hardly silly to look at it as a balance issue when for 20+ years, adventures were planned for the marathon runners like the fighter and rogue who were less impressive in the short term but more impressive in the long term, and the sprinters like the wizard and cleric, who were capable of short bouts with dazzling effect but either got winded or otherwise had to conserve their energy, since a wizard without his spells is basically a geeky guy in a robe.
In combat, there are only so many combat rounds in a day, particularly rounds that matter. A typical encounter at CR is won within three rounds (which is, again distinct from killing all foes), and a typical day is four encounters at CR, for a total of twelve rounds that actually matter. Four sets of three rounds. Not a lot of refreshing within those three rounds. That means any given maneuver isn't likely to be useful more than four times per day, assuming you actually decide to use it every fight. That's far from infinite.
You're forgetting many other things--traps, puzzles, whatnot. And assuming that all adventures follow the same 9-5 routine is wrong.
One of the old standard adventures is, after the long hard battle where the casters have exhausted their spells, there's some sort of nasty ambush, often with magic, and the wizard and cleric are going "But I don't have any more Dispel Magic!" and the party's only hope is the fighter and/or rogue guarding the wizard and/or cleric for 8 hours to get their beauty rest so they can get the necessary spell to save everyone's bacon.
Or the Warblade and the Warlock can say "No problem, we've got it covered!" and toss Iron Heart Surge and Voracious Dispelling.
Suspense and risk are pretty much dead.
Further, the main advantage of melee is supposed to be that they get "infinite" sword. Or, as you put it, unlimited use of the 'Frappe' button. Warblade is the Fighter that actually has the ability you say the Fighter should have. A genuine, working Frappe button that she can keep hitting to keep kicking butt for as long as she has hit points.
If the Bo9 were just more uses of the Frappe button, I'd have less problem with it. But unlimited powerful magic? Yeah, that's a problem.
Objecting to the ability to refresh on one hand and saying the Fighter ought to have unlimited use of the 'Frappe' button on the other (keeping in mind that Warblade is Fighter, only fixed) seems rather contradictory to me. You say they ought to have this ability to do their job, then object to their having it when they get it on the terms you laid out.
I'm objecting to unlimited magic. Look at the Knock spell, for example: Instantly open any door, guaranteed, but limited uses. Compare that to a rogue's skill: open any door, infinite uses, but not instantly, and not guaranteed. That's balance.
Just flipping through the Bo9, I come across Dance of the Spider. Looking at it, it's basically Spider Climb, but infinitely reusable, and not even apparently something you can dispel, so it's quantifiably better than slippers of spider climbing.
So let's say we rip off a fairytale for a scenario: We've got a high tower in the wilderness with no doors and only one window at the top, and there's a hag holding a beautiful maiden prisoner in it and climbing up and down via her magically extended hair. Yeah, it's Rapunzel. So, the wizard might be able to get there with Spider Climb, but halfway up, the hag might cackle and toss a Dispel Magic to let him plumet to his doom, or at lest reasonable amounts of falling damage. The rogue can attempt a climb check, but has chance of failure, especially if the hag is taking potshots at him. However, the warblade can just do Dance of the Spider and the hag can't do anything to stop him from climbing her tower, lopping her head off, rescuing the maiden and making the rest of the party look completely superfluos.
I object to the Bo9's "Anything you can do, I can do better" routine. If the fighter can scream "By the power of Wuxia!" and climb walls better than the rogue and the wizard combined, then yeah, there's huge balance issues.
Just flipping through the Bo9, I come across Dance of the Spider. Looking at it, it's basically Spider Climb, but infinitely reusable, and not even apparently something you can dispel, so it's quantifiably better than slippers of spider climbing.
Stances can be removed. I suggest you actually familiarize yourself with the rules before you cry "overpowered!".
Just flipping through the Bo9, I come across Dance of the Spider. Looking at it, it's basically Spider Climb, but infinitely reusable, and not even apparently something you can dispel, so it's quantifiably better than slippers of spider climbing.Stances can be removed. I suggest you actually familiarize yourself with the rules before you cry "overpowered!".
On page 40, it says that only stances that are tagged with "supernatural" can be dispelled, and on page 76, under the listing of Dance of the Spider, there is no listing of "supernatural" for the stance, though other powers on the same page are listed as "supernatural."
Am I reading this incorrectly, or do I get to cry "overpowered!" now?
I suggest you look at the two pages and tell how, by the RAW, the hag is supposed to cause the warblade to lose his footing, short of Disintegrating the tower out from under him.
...By RAW those seem legit, but I dont think that was the intent. This is one of those cases where the DM steps in and says " I will allow youI just did a search for "iron heart surge" and "broken" and turned this up:
Now, if by the RAW you can remove gravity from an entire plane, I think there's a little bit too much power there.>Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies. When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
ITT, we have fun abusing the vague wording of Iron Heart Surge. I know it's been done on the WotC boards a lot, but it's about time that /tg/ has a crack at it.
• Many weather effects impose conditions or effects on you. For example, a hurricane imposes the blown-away condition on Medium or smaller creatures, and a thunderstorm has the effect of giving a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks due to the rain. You can use IHS to end the bad weather.
• Being outdoors out at night gives you either concealment (for shadowy illumination) or total concealment (for complete darkness), both of which are effects. You can use IHS to end the night and presumably make the sun come up so that it's not dark any more.
• Gravity is listed down as a planar trait that has an effect on all creatures within the plane. You can use IHS to eradicate gravity from the plane.
• From a practical viewpoint, IHS gives you a 100% chance of busting down, say, an Antimagic Field or a Forcecage. The funny thing is that it can't save you from charm/domination or dazing/paralysis/sleep/stunning, which are ironically the most common cinematic tropes when it comes to overcoming debilitations through sheer willpower.
If you were to find one instance of a badly written rule and not use a book many would have to stop playing the game altogether
On page 40, it says that only stances that are tagged with "supernatural" can be dispelled, and on page 76, under the listing of Dance of the Spider, there is no listing of "supernatural" for the stance, though other powers on the same page are listed as "supernatural."
Am I reading this incorrectly, or do I get to cry "overpowered!" now?
I suggest you look at the two pages and tell how, by the RAW, the hag is supposed to cause the warblade to lose his footing, short of Disintegrating the tower out from under him.
Page 43, under (Type): Stance:
Your stance ends if you are rendered helpless for any reason.
Page 45, under Duration: Stance:
This duration indicates that the ability is a stance, and therefore ends only ... when you become helpless ...
A simple hold person (lower level spell than dispel magic, I might add) will dispel any stance. Note also that a hold person would not end either the spider climb spell itself nor the effect thereof.
Dance of the Spider is neither stronger nor weaker than spider climb. It's just different.
On page 40, it says that only stances that are tagged with "supernatural" can be dispelled, and on page 76, under the listing of Dance of the Spider, there is no listing of "supernatural" for the stance, though other powers on the same page are listed as "supernatural."
Am I reading this incorrectly, or do I get to cry "overpowered!" now?
I suggest you look at the two pages and tell how, by the RAW, the hag is supposed to cause the warblade to lose his footing, short of Disintegrating the tower out from under him.
Page 43, under (Type): Stance:
Your stance ends if you are rendered helpless for any reason.Page 45, under Duration: Stance:
This duration indicates that the ability is a stance, and therefore ends only ... when you become helpless ...A simple hold person (lower level spell than dispel magic, I might add) will dispel any stance.
I am going to say this as nicely as possible. This situation seems to mirror that rant I went on in my first post. I keep seeing maneuvers being called out as overpowered, and Zurai keeps shooting them down.
I am not advocating any DM allow everything under the sun in your campaign, but before you call it broken and ban it read the book(I know some people do really read the books), and if you have the chance let the character be played in a game. If the character is doing to much, then read the book again to make sure nothing is amiss. If possible, adjust accordingly. That is what we do for most games anyway. By RAW a 20th level caster can summon an infernal(Epic level handbook) which is a CR 26 creature because it has 40HD. I limit the caster to calling a creature with a CR no higher than his actual caster level, as an example.
Stuff
Actually my thought to bring the group together for a talk has more to do with the book's complete contents then just a few broken rules within. The book strikes me in it's style and content as poorly thoughtout, poorly tested, and not in keeping with the 3.5 game. That's my veiw, my group might see it other ways, either way we would need to talk it out and be sure we are all on board either with heavily modifying the book, ignoring it, or some middle ground. Same thing we do with pathfidner, so far we have close to 20 house rules for the game, it simply put varried too much from 3.5 for our happiness and too many changes were last minute and seem less then well thoughtout.
Personally I would suggest every group talk such things out, even when the book is solid and mostly useable. What seems good to me might drive a friend nuts, and it helps if before allowing new rules into the game the group talk out all our thoughts so everyone has an idea what to look for. We did this with many 3.X splat, heck back when UA came out in 1e I recall long conversations about using that. I've not been in any group were one DM simply ruled and roost so for me rules always get discussed by the group.
It's cheese. The description clearly states that "black, shadowy energy covers your hands and feet" and yet somehow this ability is not supernatural? Pull the other, it plays "Hail Orcus, Devourer of Souls!"
Rendering any character helpless, regardless of class, is generally a "game over" maneuver anyway.
About the only spider climbing type power that should work in an antimagic zone--apart from a rogue simply scaling the walls the old fashioned way--should be some sort of gnomish artificer device from Magic of Faerun involving suction-cup gloves and alchemical tar covered boots.
Black, shadowing energy popping out of your fingers and toes is sort of the definition of supernatural, and claiming it to be something else so that it's not governed by the relevant metaphysics is pure cheese.
StuffActually my thought to bring the group together for a talk has more to do with the book's complete contents then just a few broken rules within. The book strikes me in it's style and content as poorly thoughtout, poorly tested, and not in keeping with the 3.5 game. That's my veiw, my group might see it other ways, either way we would need to talk it out and be sure we are all on board either with heavily modifying the book, ignoring it, or some middle ground. Same thing we do with pathfidner, so far we have close to 20 house rules for the game, it simply put varried too much from 3.5 for our happiness and too many changes were last minute and seem less then well thoughtout.
Personally I would suggest every group talk such things out, even when the book is solid and mostly useable. What seems good to me might drive a friend nuts, and it helps if before allowing new rules into the game the group talk out all our thoughts so everyone has an idea what to look for. We did this with many 3.X splat, heck back when UA came out in 1e I recall long conversations about using that. I've not been in any group were one DM simply ruled and roost so for me rules always get discussed by the group.
I like your group. It works like mine does.
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You want another one? White Raven Tactics...Get two full rounds as a swift action essentially.Incorrect. You are not your own ally. You cannot target yourself with WRT. Note that you also can't use it on the same ally more than once in a fight unless something else has changed their initiative count in between uses.
Despite that being the logical conclusion, I have yet to find anywhere in the rules that deals with the target of an ally. By RAW you can declare yourself your own ally.
How about the fact that while they say multi classing means your effective initiator levels in one ToB class is halved when selecting for the others, no where is this distinction made for the martial study feat?Why does it need to be made? If you have MA levels when you take the feat, the new maneuver belongs to one of the classes you have MA levels in and thus uses that class's initiator level and recharge mechanic. If you don't, it's a classless maneuver with no recharge and an initiator level equal to 1/2 your character level.
The reason why this is an important distinction is that it offers you level 9 maneuvers in schools you shouldn't be grabbing level nine maneuvers. By using Martial Study, you can grab the Devoted Spirit 9 Maneuver, and as a warblade use ad infinitum to make sure that you are NEVER in a position to be threatened by any meaningful effect.
How about we play the "How many attacks can I make in one turn?" game.Avalanche of Blades is significantly weaker than Blade Cascade. BC does double weapon damage per hit and never decreases your chance to hit. Avalanche only does normal weapon damage and reduces your to-hit roll by 4 with every attack. The only way to get an infinite number of attacks with Avalanche is to roll non-stop 20's, because after 6 or so attacks you're going to be well past the point where you can hit with any regularity.
Fair enough, the fact that your full attack could easily get as many attacks as a two weapon fighter, with weapons not meant to be wielded by a two weapon fighter.
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Thanks for the three examples to back up my assertion that most people who claim Bo9S is overpowered either havn't read the book or just don't understand the rules.
Oh I understood the rules just fine. As I said, please, mention where it states you can't declare yourself as your own ally, or hell where the rules for allies even exist? Logical conclusions are fine and dandy, but by Raw White Raven tactics can target yourself. You merely say "I'm my own ally" and then you meet the criteria.
By RAW a 20th level caster can summon an infernal(Epic level handbook) which is a CR 26 creature because it has 40HD. I limit the caster to calling a creature with a CR no higher than his actual caster level, as an example.
That's because the RAW is yet again broken in this instance because anything that summons, polymorphs or whatever a creature based on HD means that players will glean the books for the creature with the most powerful abilities for the given HD.
You can break even a caster level limit if the player starts stacking templates which raises the CR but not the HD.
You have to make rules calls all the time. My call is that the Bo9s whole "We're defining obviously magical things as non-supernatural so they bypass stuff as a rules loophole" routine is cheese, and having powers that upstage other classes core abilities is a bad thing.
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By RAW a 20th level caster can summon an infernal(Epic level handbook) which is a CR 26 creature because it has 40HD. I limit the caster to calling a creature with a CR no higher than his actual caster level, as an example.That's because the RAW is yet again broken in this instance because anything that summons, polymorphs or whatever a creature based on HD means that players will glean the books for the creature with the most powerful abilities for the given HD.
You can break even a caster level limit if the player starts stacking templates which raises the CR but not the HD.
You have to make rules calls all the time. My call is that the Bo9s whole "We're defining obviously magical things as non-supernatural so they bypass stuff as a rules loophole" routine is cheese, and having powers that upstage other classes core abilities is a bad thing.
And in Pathfinder the Infernal would turn around, squish your head like a grape, sow havoc and terror for awhile, before going back where it came from.
So you'd have no trouble with a wizard getting infinite Disintegrates or infinite Fireballs? All you can do with those is break stuff too.
The warlock and the ToB classes both effectively have infinite spells. We're not calling them that, but that's what they are: magical effects with more power than just picking a lock or lopping off someone's head.
And it's hardly silly to look at it as a balance issue when for 20+ years, adventures were planned for the marathon runners like the fighter and rogue who were less impressive in the short term but more impressive in the long term, and the sprinters like the wizard and cleric, who were capable of short bouts with dazzling effect but either got winded or otherwise had to conserve their energy, since a wizard without his spells is basically a geeky guy in a robe.
There's a big difference between a Warlock or a Warblade's abilities and a Wizard's spells. They're a lot weaker, and far more limited in scope.
White Raven Strike is a fourth-level strike that leaves a foe flat-footed for a round, maybe less. Glitterdust is a second-level spell that blinds a group for a round per level, which leaves them flat-footed among other benefits.
Maneuvers and invocations are balanced under the assumption that they're pretty much infinite use. Hence, their being weaker and less versatile overall.
It's not silly to consider it a balance issue. It is silly to act as if infinite use is automatically infinitely more useful. Most maneuvers are pretty much useless outside of combat, and in-combat, you're probably only going to even get the ability to use any given maneuver once per fight, tops. That pretty naturally caps its use on a typical day at four or five. If there are ten encounters per day, well, the Warlock and Warblade are balanced on the assumption that they can keep going as long as they have the hit points.
You call the maneuvers spells, yet really? They're not even close to the same power scale as spells. Nor are they supposed to be. The raw power found in spells is vast and cosmic. In maneuvers? You give a bunch of mooks a bonus to charging. Woo.
You're forgetting many other things--traps, puzzles, whatnot. And assuming that all adventures follow the same 9-5 routine is wrong.
I'm not assuming they do. I'm saying that's the norm. The default. And unless the traps and puzzles can be solved by smashing stuff, which a standard Barbarian could do normally, or by burning stuff, which any random mook with a torch could do, very few maneuvers add anything to the equation.
One of the old standard adventures is, after the long hard battle where the casters have exhausted their spells, there's some sort of nasty ambush, often with magic, and the wizard and cleric are going "But I don't have any more Dispel Magic!" and the party's only hope is the fighter and/or rogue guarding the wizard and/or cleric for 8 hours to get their beauty rest so they can get the necessary spell to save everyone's bacon.
Or the Warblade and the Warlock can say "No problem, we've got it covered!" and toss Iron Heart Surge and Voracious Dispelling.
Suspense and risk are pretty much dead.
Oi, oi, oi. You're saying it ruins the game for the folks whose main strength is their ability to keep going so long as they have hit points to actually be able to keep going so long as they have hit points?
Iron Heart Surge is known to be so badly-worded that it's unusable without clarification; bringing it up is meaningless. Meanwhile, the Warlock makes huge sacrifices to get that Voracious Dispelling. Her sole advantage over the mages is that, while her magical abilities absolutely suck in comparison, they don't run out. And now you're saying it ruins the game that she might actually be able to put that one benefit to use? Absurd! This is her well-earned time to shine! And if Voracious Dispelling is all it takes to absolutely ruin the excitement of the encounter, then it is an absolutely horribly designed encounter.
If it's a decent fight, it's still going to be a decent fight. It's just that the players in that fight are legitimately decent themselves. And there's nothing wrong with that.
If the Bo9 were just more uses of the Frappe button, I'd have less problem with it. But unlimited powerful magic? Yeah, that's a problem.
No, Tome of Battle is the actual installation of a Frappe button in the first place.
So let's say we rip off a fairytale for a scenario: We've got a high tower in the wilderness with no doors and only one window at the top, and there's a hag holding a beautiful maiden prisoner in it and climbing up and down via her magically extended hair. Yeah, it's Rapunzel. So, the wizard might be able to get there with Spider Climb, but halfway up, the hag might cackle and toss a Dispel Magic to let him plumet to his doom, or at lest reasonable amounts of falling damage. The rogue can attempt a climb check, but has chance of failure, especially if the hag is taking potshots at him. However, the warblade can just do Dance of the Spider and the hag can't do anything to stop him from climbing her tower, lopping her head off, rescuing the maiden and making the rest of the party look completely superfluos.
1) That's a horribly-designed scenario.
2) Dance of the Spider is from a Swordsage-only school.
3) You're calling a class petty over its ability to CLIMB GOOD.
I object to the Bo9's "Anything you can do, I can do better" routine. If the fighter can scream "By the power of Wuxia!" and climb walls better than the rogue and the wizard combined, then yeah, there's huge balance issues.
Dance of the Spider is an ability that goes to the Monk-replacement, the Swordsage, who is supposed to be Wuxia. Not the Warblade. And it's... climbing. Seriously. The Paladin could probably have a hippogriff mount by now and just fly there. Any quest that could be solved by exceptional climbing prowess isn't much of a quest. It's like saying Disable Device is overpowered because the Temple of Doom might consist solely of traps.
Despite that being the logical conclusion, I have yet to find anywhere in the rules that deals with the target of an ally. By RAW you can declare yourself your own ally.
There's more to the rules than RAW. There's also common sense and very obvious RAI. If you read White Raven Tactics, it is quite clearly intended to reference barking orders at others, not yourself. To nitpick on that minor detail that technically you might qualify as your own ally is petty.
The reason why this is an important distinction is that it offers you level 9 maneuvers in schools you shouldn't be grabbing level nine maneuvers. By using Martial Study, you can grab the Devoted Spirit 9 Maneuver, and as a warblade use ad infinitum to make sure that you are NEVER in a position to be threatened by any meaningful effect.
Except... you can't. Strike of Righteous Vitality requires you to first know three other Devoted Spirit maneuvers. And you can't use maneuvers ad infinitum, as once you use it once, it's gone until you get the chance to refresh, most likely after the fight is either over or just simply secured.
Oh I understood the rules just fine. As I said, please, mention where it states you can't declare yourself as your own ally, or hell where the rules for allies even exist? Logical conclusions are fine and dandy, but by Raw White Raven tactics can target yourself. You merely say "I'm my own ally" and then you meet the criteria.
Ally. Noun. A person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter.
RAW, you cannot be your own ally because you are not another.
You have to make rules calls all the time. My call is that the Bo9s whole "We're defining obviously magical things as non-supernatural so they bypass stuff as a rules loophole" routine is cheese, and having powers that upstage other classes core abilities is a bad thing.
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The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard upstage everyone. Regularly. The Book of Nine Swords is what lets melee characters get upstaged less often. The ability to climb good, and a typo omitting the word "supernatural" for once are not upstaging the guy who can still turn into a bear with a bear mount while summoning bears.
Despite that being the logical conclusion, I have yet to find anywhere in the rules that deals with the target of an ally. By RAW you can declare yourself your own ally.
No, you can't. There is no official definition of ally; lacking a game-mechanical definition, we have to fall back to the real-life one: "a person who associates or cooperates with another". To be an ally, by the definition of the term, requires two separate entities. You cannot be your own ally because an ally defines a relationship with a person other than yourself.
The reason why this is an important distinction is that it offers you level 9 maneuvers in schools you shouldn't be grabbing level nine maneuvers. By using Martial Study, you can grab the Devoted Spirit 9 Maneuver, and as a warblade use ad infinitum to make sure that you are NEVER in a position to be threatened by any meaningful effect.
Text of the Martial Study feat:
Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline for which you meet the prerequisites.
How, exactly, is a warblade going to meet the prerequisites for Strike of Righteous Vitality (the only Devoted Spirit 9 maneuver) when SoRV requires 3 other Devoted Spirit maneuvers? The only possible way to do this requires spending four feats: two Martial Studies for low-level Devoted Spirit maneuvers, one Martial Stance for a Devoted Spirit stance, then the third allowed Martial Study for SoRV. That's an awful lot of investment.
Fair enough, the fact that your full attack could easily get as many attacks as a two weapon fighter, with weapons not meant to be wielded by a two weapon fighter.
As a 7th level maneuver, used once every other round at the absolute most frequent, yes.
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There's more to the rules than RAW. There's also common sense and very obvious RAI. If you read White Raven Tactics, it is quite clearly intended to reference barking orders at others, not yourself. To nitpick on that minor detail that technically you might qualify as your own ally is petty.
I'm just pointing out every inconsistency with that book. The fact that there are several which can easily cause problems is the books fault, not mine. If anything I'm helping DM's by pointing these out so they know about it ahead of time.
Except... you can't. Strike of Righteous Vitality requires you to first know three other Devoted Spirit maneuvers. And you can't use maneuvers ad infinitum, as once you use it once, it's gone until you get the chance to refresh, most likely after the fight is either over or just simply secured.
Except, you can. Quite easily. It only costs four feats, and you can even pick up divine surge while you're at it. I hear that one is good...
Ally. Noun. A person who associates or cooperates with another; supporter.
RAW, you cannot be your own ally because you are not another.
That's awesome you can read a dictionary. Unfortunately the dictionary isn't a 3.5 supplement. The rules often define things in terms that would make a dictionary cry. Yes, I get you're trying to nail the White Raven Cheese away with the most logical house ruling ever, but the point remains that Wizards NEVER defined ally in 3.5.
The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard upstage everyone. Regularly. The Book of Nine Swords is what lets melee characters get upstaged less often. The ability to climb good, and a typo omitting the word "supernatural" for once are not upstaging the guy who can still turn into a bear with a bear mount while summoning bears.
Add to the ability to climb good (Dance of the Spider) the ability to suck out life force (Drain Vitality), paralyze with a touch (Hand of Death), turn insubstantial (One with Shadow), and teleport (Shadow Blink, Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Stride). All of these aren't listed as supernatural either. Either that's deliberate or incredibly shoddy editing.
I'm pretty certain it's the former.
I'm just pointing out every inconsistency with that book. The fact that there are several which can easily cause problems is the books fault, not mine. If anything I'm helping DM's by pointing these out so they know about it ahead of time.
Except you're dredging up points that are absolutely petty, when there are far, far worse travesties going on in the PHB. If you're arguing against Tome of Battle using standards that would get the PHB banned in a heartbeat, then your standards are pretty absurd.
Except, you can. Quite easily. It only costs four feats, and you can even pick up divine surge while you're at it. I hear that one is good...
"Only" four feats? Chief, that is a lot of feats, and a huge investment, and if you're willing to spend that much to get it, you deserve a spectacular ability for the effort.
That's awesome you can read a dictionary. Unfortunately the dictionary isn't a 3.5 supplement. The rules often define things in terms that would make a dictionary cry. Yes, I get you're trying to nail the White Raven Cheese away with the most logical house ruling ever, but the point remains that Wizards NEVER defined ally in 3.5.
And it's precisely because they never define "ally" that the default is the standard English definition of "ally." The system is written in English, after all. Any words they may use are with the standard English definition until they overrule it with a definition of their own. As they never do that for "ally," then it's the standard dictionary definition.
After all, they never define "the." That doesn't mean I can arbitrarily decree that the word "the" means, "Oh by the way, you get infinite wishes," and then use every ability in the game as an infinite wish effect.
Add to the ability to climb good (Dance of the Spider) the ability to suck out life force (Drain Vitality), paralyze with a touch (Hand of Death), turn insubstantial (One with Shadow), and teleport (Shadow Blink, Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Stride). All of these aren't listed as supernatural either. Either that's deliberate or incredibly shoddy editing.
I'm pretty certain it's the former.
And it's still a very petty quibble, particularly since the entire school is pretty much defined as being supernatural beforehand, and if that's what you're using to lynch the book, you're really grasping at straws here and probably need to take a step back.
And it's still a very petty quibble, particularly since the entire school is pretty much defined as being supernatural beforehand, and if that's what you're using to lynch the book, you're really grasping at straws here and probably need to take a step back.
I'm not lynching the book: I'm critiquing, something that everyone does with nonfiction and fiction alike.
Since you said yourself that the whole school is pretty much supernatural, it would be a heck of a lot neater and more sensible to simply say "all shadow hand maneuvers are supernatural" up front rather than waste two lines at the end of almost every power.
There are plenty of things that are supernatural that don't fall under the regular spell system: a druid's ability to wildshape, a wizard's bond with his familiar, a paladin's ability to lay on hands, a rogue's ability to bounce around in an empty room when a fireball is cast and somehow take no damage.
My opinion is that the book has some bad wording in some places, some bad rules decisions in others, and some overreaches in terms of power to try to make the fighter, paladin and monk more powerful and in the process going overboard.
This is not the first time this has happened. Back in 1st ed, the Unearthed Arcana came out with the new rules for the Cavalier, and among the many other perks dished out was a +2 on all attempts to disbelieve illusions. One of my players, playing a cavalier, proudly announced this, at which point I, who thought the illusionists had enough trouble as it was being much wimpier than the wizards in general, declared the only way I would let this stand is if paladins and cavaliers, when attempting to disbelieve something that was actually there, on rolling a 19 or 20, would through sheer pigheadedness disbelieve reality and believe whatever their personal delusion was.
We happily played with this house rule, and no one was happier than the paladin player when his paladin finally succeeded in deluding herself through a sheer act of faith.
Following that, yeah, if I put any portion of the book into my game, I'd house rule the hell out of it.
And in Pathfinder the Infernal would turn around, squish your head like a grape, sow havoc and terror for awhile, before going back where it came from.By RAW a 20th level caster can summon an infernal(Epic level handbook) which is a CR 26 creature because it has 40HD. I limit the caster to calling a creature with a CR no higher than his actual caster level, as an example.That's because the RAW is yet again broken in this instance because anything that summons, polymorphs or whatever a creature based on HD means that players will glean the books for the creature with the most powerful abilities for the given HD.
You can break even a caster level limit if the player starts stacking templates which raises the CR but not the HD.
You have to make rules calls all the time. My call is that the Bo9s whole "We're defining obviously magical things as non-supernatural so they bypass stuff as a rules loophole" routine is cheese, and having powers that upstage other classes core abilities is a bad thing.
How so? It is just like any other monster that could be called unless you tried to gate in an advanced version. I did not look at the 3.5 version beside the Pathfinder one, but they read similarly enough that I did not notice anything about having to make a will save or bargain with the creature, just like it was in 3.5. Regardless of whether or I read the spell correctly or not the point stands.
By the way core upstages core all the time. If it didn't the those that were not full casters would not need the upgrade they got in pathfinder.Edit: for clarification.
I never understood the "it doesn't fit" argument for things like Tome of Battle or psionics (though for, say, warforged, it's fairly obvious).
Thing is, the books don't bring the flavor. The players, the DM, the characters do. To kick the books out over flavor... that... has nothing to do with the books. Guard Captain Jim who would normally have been a Fighter can be made into a Warblade with no flavor changes. It's just, now the fact that he's a skilled swordsman with command experience both have mechanical effects. He knows how to lead troops, so he can grant folks bonuses when charging. He knows how to stick the pointy thing in the fleshy part, so he can deal bonus damage.
My last Psion was a wizard classic. Robes, staff, and all. I just used the Psion mechanics because they're more streamlined, more fair, and provide a more meaningful box of character-representation tools despite being 3.5's redheaded stepchild. I absolutely despise the psionic fluff and won't let it anywhere near the game, but those are some of the most balanced, sensible, and fun mechanics in the entire game and really serve to represent magic well, even in a world with no "psionics."
I'm just pointing out every inconsistency with that book. The fact that there are several which can easily cause problems is the books fault, not mine. If anything I'm helping DM's by pointing these out so they know about it ahead of time.Except you're dredging up points that are absolutely petty, when there are far, far worse travesties going on in the PHB. If you're arguing against Tome of Battle using standards that would get the PHB banned in a heartbeat, then your standards are pretty absurd.
Except, you can. Quite easily. It only costs four feats, and you can even pick up divine surge while you're at it. I hear that one is good..."Only" four feats? Chief, that is a lot of feats, and a huge investment, and if you're willing to spend that much to get it, you deserve a spectacular ability for the effort.
That's awesome you can read a dictionary. Unfortunately the dictionary isn't a 3.5 supplement. The rules often define things in terms that would make a dictionary cry. Yes, I get you're trying to nail the White Raven Cheese away with the most logical house ruling ever, but the point remains that Wizards NEVER defined ally in 3.5.And it's precisely because they never define "ally" that the default is the standard English definition of "ally." The system is written in English, after all. Any words they may use are with the standard English definition until they overrule it with a definition of their own. As they never do that for "ally," then it's the standard dictionary definition.
After all, they never define "the." That doesn't mean I can arbitrarily decree that the word "the" means, "Oh by the way, you get infinite wishes," and then use every ability in the game as an infinite wish effect.
Add to the ability to climb good (Dance of the Spider) the ability to suck out life force (Drain Vitality), paralyze with a touch (Hand of Death), turn insubstantial...
Viletta Vadim wins the thread!!!
I never understood the "it doesn't fit" argument for things like Tome of Battle or psionics (though for, say, warforged, it's fairly obvious).The blatantly supernatural maneuvers and stances from Tome of Battle can be considered to not fit if martial characters in the world are defined as not having supernatural abilities. Psionics could be considered to not fit if Vancian casting is defined as the only type of spellcasting in the world.
I agree with you fully that the flavor text can be changed, but sometimes it's the underlying mechanics that don't fit the paradigm of the world. No matter how you try to describe it, flying is a supernatural effect unless the character actually has wings or some type of technological device. Also some DMs don't have or want to take the time to rework the flavor text to fit things in. Changing the flavor text to fit the world is a choice, not a requirement. There is nothing wrong with saying "it doesn't fit so we aren't using it" and leaving it at that.
Exactly what Freesword just said: I'm using the Vancian magic pretty much as written. Characters have not visited the "Mysterious East" this game, so I have no use for ki powers, wuxia and all the rest of that business. And even allowing in the non-supernatural powers from the Bo9 is not an option because--as I think I've demonstrated pretty well--they've been deliberately mislabeled as part of rule cheese/sloppy design, so you suddenly have insubstantial teleporting swordsmen who say that what they're doing is not magic. Psionics likewise doesn't fit for the same reason, though it's easier to ban the whole lot rather than see if there are individual bits that might fit.
And yes, reflavoring all the flavor text is a chore, especially since it's generally linked to the mechanics and certain assumptions about the nature of metaphysics. And if I've made separate assumptions for my world building, then it doesn't fit.
I never understood the "it doesn't fit" argument for things like Tome of Battle or psionics (though for, say, warforged, it's fairly obvious).The blatantly supernatural maneuvers and stances from Tome of Battle can be considered to not fit if martial characters in the world are defined as not having supernatural abilities. Psionics could be considered to not fit if Vancian casting is defined as the only type of spellcasting in the world.
I agree with you fully that the flavor text can be changed, but sometimes it's the underlying mechanics that don't fit the paradigm of the world. No matter how you try to describe it, flying is a supernatural effect unless the character actually has wings or some type of technological device. Also some DMs don't have or want to take the time to rework the flavor text to fit things in. Changing the flavor text to fit the world is a choice, not a requirement. There is nothing wrong with saying "it doesn't fit so we aren't using it" and leaving it at that.
Then let the players do it. Sometimes when my players ask for something abnormal I tell them to give me a reason for it as part of the character's background for it as an example.
I never understood the "it doesn't fit" argument for things like Tome of Battle or psionics (though for, say, warforged, it's fairly obvious).The blatantly supernatural maneuvers and stances from Tome of Battle can be considered to not fit if martial characters in the world are defined as not having supernatural abilities. Psionics could be considered to not fit if Vancian casting is defined as the only type of spellcasting in the world.
I agree with you fully that the flavor text can be changed, but sometimes it's the underlying mechanics that don't fit the paradigm of the world. No matter how you try to describe it, flying is a supernatural effect unless the character actually has wings or some type of technological device. Also some DMs don't have or want to take the time to rework the flavor text to fit things in. Changing the flavor text to fit the world is a choice, not a requirement. There is nothing wrong with saying "it doesn't fit so we aren't using it" and leaving it at that.
+1, Unless your willing to rework most of the book then no Bo9s does not fit most of the worlds I run, It's not fluff really it's the feel and mechanics, the scream soul reaper more then they ever say swordsmen.
If you want to play inuyasha Bo9s is for you, if however inuyasha, or bleach style combat does not fit your game Bo9s is NOT for you
Most of the things that have been picked on as "supernatural" were swordsage maneuvers, which was intended to be supernatural to some extent.
I am starting to think I am posting because I dont have anything else to do.
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And in Pathfinder the Infernal would turn around, squish your head like a grape, sow havoc and terror for awhile, before going back where it came from.By RAW a 20th level caster can summon an infernal(Epic level handbook) which is a CR 26 creature because it has 40HD. I limit the caster to calling a creature with a CR no higher than his actual caster level, as an example.That's because the RAW is yet again broken in this instance because anything that summons, polymorphs or whatever a creature based on HD means that players will glean the books for the creature with the most powerful abilities for the given HD.
You can break even a caster level limit if the player starts stacking templates which raises the CR but not the HD.
You have to make rules calls all the time. My call is that the Bo9s whole "We're defining obviously magical things as non-supernatural so they bypass stuff as a rules loophole" routine is cheese, and having powers that upstage other classes core abilities is a bad thing.
How so? It is just like any other monster that could be called unless you tried to gate in an advanced version. I did not look at the 3.5 version beside the Pathfinder one, but they read similarly enough that I did not notice anything about having to make a will save or bargain with the creature, just like it was in 3.5. Regardless of whether or I read the spell correctly or not the point stands.
By the way core upstages core all the time. If it didn't the those that were not full casters would not need the upgrade they got in pathfinder.Edit: for clarification.
Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
Bolded for emphasis. IF the HD is higher than your caster level and you gate it in, you are hosed regardless of situations. The creature is NOT under your control, does as it wishes and then goes back when it feels like it. This was not included in the base gate and so now there is repercussions to gating in beings more powerful than you. That means you actually have to be careful about what you pick when gating things in from other planes.