Hello,
I am read the Great Beyond and as far as I gather, every plane represents one alignment:
Heaven = Lawful Good
Nirvana = Neutral Good
Elysium = Chaotic Good
Axis = Lawful Neutral
Boneyard = True Neutral
Maelstrom = Chaoitc Neutral
Hell = Lawful Evil
Abaddon = Neutral Evil
Abyss = Chaotic Evil
All the other deities make the homes in the realm best befitting their alignment. Now why do Calistra and Gorum reside in Elysium and not in the Maelstrom as their alignment would indicate?
Greetz
Ganzir
Now why do Calistra and Gorum reside in Elysium and not in the Maelstrom as their alignment would indicate?
They're chaotic. They don't care at all about what you think they should live. What are you, the immigration bureau?
Calistira has a lot of elven followers, which turn into elven patitioners after death, and they prefer a benevolent wilderness to total elemental chaos. Plus, it's a bit hard to have a wild orgy of unbridled passion if you don't know whether your four-poster-bed is turning into a pool of molten lava in the next second.
And Gorum: He wanted to be in Elysium, some guy said he couldn't, and Gorum hit him so hard his whole race died out (yes, that's why there are no genasi in Pathfinder, the closed content thing is just an explanation to hush up Gorum's anger management problem)
I could have asked about Norgorber as well, my question merely aimed at the intention of the author of placing deities in planes not identical to their alignment.
Greetz
Ganzir
Granted, gods can stay where they will, but since gods (at least in my imagination represent the their alignment made flesh) and an outer plane is an alignment shaped into a world, it just feels odd, that deities would chose their permanent home in a plane of unidentical alignment or be welcomed be the planes native denizens. OK Sarenrae and Asmodeus worked together to banish Rovagug, but I doubt either one of same liked that sort of teamwork.
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I could have asked about Norgorber as well, my question merely aimed at the intention of the author of placing deities in planes not identical to their alignment.
I would suspect to give a more pulpy, but also more "realistic", feel to the Gods, living wherever they please, being Gods, rather than the "All CN gods live in Limbo, whether it makes sense or not" of AD&D.
I mean, Norgorber obviously lives in Axis because he's a creature of cities and shadows and secrets, whereas NE Abaddon is a land of deserts and everything out in the open and covered in blood. I will note he's still hiding on a Neutral plane.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I will note he's still hiding on a Neutral plane.
Neutral on a different axis (no pun intended).
I think the issue comes down to flavor, really. Maelstrom and Abaddon are particularly harsh realms, and while the alignment of the plane might be the same as the alignment of a particular deity, each of those alignments has a ton of wiggle room.
In the example of Gorum, he is CN because he loves the chaos, unpredictability and changing power of war. This is certainly a CN outlook. But the Maelstrom is an ever-changing amalgam of energy and literally raw chaos. Not a great place to wage a war. It's a different aspect of CN. The same goes for Calistria, who is CN because she sees the individual as more important than the society and has no qualms about doing either good or evil if that's what someone deserves either as a way of getting what you want out of them or exacting revenge upon them. Not so much for the protean choruses there. Of course, either of them could have chosen to live in the Abyss, but I don't think that's either of their styles either. In the end, the flavor of the planes trumps the rigid rule that a deity must make their home on their aligned plane.
The Maelstrom is ca-razy!
Bah! It's not that crazy! It still has that annoying orderly consistency of always existing. Until the Maelstrom just randomly ceases to exist every now and then, it's too lawful for my tastes!
I could have asked about Norgorber as well, my question merely aimed at the intention of the author of placing deities in planes not identical to their alignment.
Greetz
Ganzir
Short answer: they were already placed in those planes when I wrote up The Great Beyond. ;)
Longer answer: Calistria fits in Elysium because that's where the other elven gods already reside, and the gods aren't hard-linked to an alignment/plane like various outsider races are. Of course you could have fun in a campaign with the notion that the other elven gods are there because that's where she was, rather than the other way around.
Gorum is a little more difficult to rationalize his place, but I tried to provide some meat to that open question when I had the chance to do so in TGB. I suggested that Gorum and his followers are there because of some ancient pact or deal with the azata (or the other gods of the plane, perhaps brokered by the azata). Just what the relationship there implies is something DMs can define and play upon in their own games.
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Creative Director
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Gorum's from my homebrew world, which uses the Golarion cosmology but with the names and contents of the Great Wheel outer planes (with the exception of the Boneyard being at the center instead of Sigil and the concordant opposition/outlands... and a few other differences). In my homebrew, "Elysium" also includes Olympus and all of the Olympian gods, along with their giant gods. This includes a lot of evil stuff, like Thrym and Surtur.
I originally placed Gorum in this plane becasue, thematically, he fits in pretty well in a plane where the good gods are at constant war with giants.
So basically, the previous notion that since he's the god of war and thus needs to be on a place where he can wage war is the main reason he's on Elysium. The maelstrom is so chaotic and fluid and everchanging that you can't really wage a war there. At least, not in the classic sense of war, and classic war is what Gorum's all about.
The other option would have been to put him in the Abyss, and since he's not a demon lord and not evil, that's even weirder to me. There's ample precedent for CN deities living in the CG plane, I guess, but not as much for CN deities in the Abyss.
question merely aimed at the intention of the author of placing deities in planes not identical to their alignment.
Well, there are no rules that say that this must be done.
And the planes - and the gods! - are more than just their alignment. If something else is a better fit (an elven goddess choosing an arboreal paradise over an ever changing void), then no one should be chained to some silly rule about alignments.
The other option would have been to put him in the Abyss, and since he's not a demon lord and not evil, that's even weirder to me. There's ample precedent for CN deities living in the CG plane, I guess, but not as much for CN deities in the Abyss.
We creatures from the Void really despise the Abyss.
Don't expect a completely sensible answer to this, because there is none (at least, nothing a non-protean would find sensible), but some reasons that might be true:
So far it worked out quite well.
The quick answer? No CN plane on PF's cosmogony and the Maesltrom is officially a no-fly zone where not even the gods are safe, so they had to put CN gods somewhere.
I'm pretty sure Gorum wouldn't have consented to this background check. When a colossal iron golem stomps your village flat, you know why!
- Shoanti Jim, Battlepriest of Gorum
The quick answer? No CN plane on PF's cosmogony and the Maesltrom is officially a no-fly zone where not even the gods are safe, so they had to put CN gods somewhere.
Although Nethys finds it perfectly fine. And who would question his judgement :)
I also recall Sivanah making her home there for her own reasons, and Besmara (Arr) being there herself.
The quick answer? No CN plane on PF's cosmogony and the Maesltrom is officially a no-fly zone where not even the gods are safe, so they had to put CN gods somewhere.Although Nethys finds it perfectly fine. And who would question his judgement :)
I also recall Sivanah making her home there for her own reasons, and Besmara (Arr) being there herself.
I find Besmara to just be awesome.
Actually, the Maelstrom IS the Chaotic Neutral plane in our cosmology.
Heh, ok, I didn't use to think of it as a plane per se, thanks for the clarification. =)
Although Nethys finds it perfectly fine. And who would question his judgement :)
Then again it wasn't Nethys who put that wall around his realm to protect himself from the maelstrom, it was -the maelstrom- who put it there to protect itself from Nethys. >=D
Then again it wasn't Nethys who put that wall around his realm to protect himself from the maelstrom, it was -the maelstrom- who put it there to protect itself from Nethys. >=D
No kidding.
He's one of those people who joins a group, doesn't quite get it (the misunderstandings are deceptively small, but really fatal on the long run) and goes in with a fervour a regular member finds disturbing.
It's like some guy joining a bunch of people who are against slaughtering animals for food, who will start killing meat eaters and blow up farms with all their animals still in it (so no one can eat them).
I never stated that I thought of it as a rule, that gods have to be on their plane of alignment, to me it just feels more fitting. Another question might be, who is stronger, a plane or a deity. So for example is heaven to the archons like earth (golarion respectively) is to humans? Meaning there are some "natural" laws even the deities have to adhere to or can the deities form a plane to their will (in parts at least)?
Greetz
Ganzir
I never stated that I thought of it as a rule, that gods have to be on their plane of alignment, to me it just feels more fitting.
To me, it is boring. :P