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Anyone who has read David Edding's Belgariad should know where I'm going with this. In those books, magic made a distinctive 'sound' that could be felt more than heard by sensitive people (magic users). What kind of effect on gameplay would it have if a rule like that were implemented?
My rough draft is a DC equal to 25/30 minus the level of the spell, using a flat ability check. The goal being that higher level spells are easier to detect, and spellcasters detect easier than non. Wisdom is the obvious choice, but would clerics and druids be more prone to noticing spellcraft than wizards and sorcerors?
Overall my goal is to have lower level spells being like firecrackers, and higher level like bombs. In this way you can throw your most powerful weapons first, but you're going to alert people pretty fast. Any thoughts or suggestions?
I have read the Belgariad numerous times along with the Mallorean and the Ruby throne set. That being said, I can see where you want to go with this. However, are you sure that Wisdom is the "obvious" choice for the flat ability check? As Spellcraft is an Intelligence based skill and I think that knowing what someone is casting might be considered to be a balance of both Wisdom and Intelligence.
Also, what purpose would this check serve? Would it just allow you to know if the BBEG was casting spells in preparation for the final conflict? Would you be able to detect the use of magical items? That's all I can think of at the moment.
Just my 2 cp.
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Wisdom being the obvious choice due to it being tied to Perception. Of course, Int also has precedence from detecting scrying sensors, I recall now.
This check would allow anyone with the proper training or talent to know when someone is casting a spell of power. In a dungeon, on a city street, out in the countryside, etc.
So if you're trying to sneak into the castle, better not cast anything too loud or the court wizards might catch on.
Hope your Charm Person spell doesn't attract attention at the evening ball.
Did anyone just feel that spell? It felt like it came from below the city. Uh oh...
Maybe scry and die won't be so easy when the targets know you're coming?
And just like in the books, can't be too loud when you're trying to travel under the nose of any number of countries.
I hadn't extended the thought to magic items yet, but I imagine powerful items would do the same.
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Technically Spellcraft already allows a caster to recognize ongoing magical effects.
You've altered the fluff slightly, which is all yours to do. All you need to do is rule that a caster can do this without "seeing" the effect. Then rule how much the DC increases by distance (an analogy to sound would work, but maybe a bit less).
Here's another thought/question. Seeing as how Detect Magic is now a cantrip with unlimited castings per day, would this "skill" be better tied to that spell? Possibly as a check? I am not sure where I would go with this but it seems to tie in directly to Detect Magic.
Although Detect Magic has to still be prepared or known and it has a given range. Where your idea has no set range nor is it prepared nor known.
Possibly instead of being trained in this ability, a caster would develop a "sensitivity" to magic use. Maybe as a class/race feature, such as a racial feature for Elves and Gnomes, and class features for Spellcasters. As to Clerics and Druids maybe make the "sensitivity" higher for the particular type of spell casting. As for setting the DC think along the idea of 30 - (2x spell level) = DC.
Just thinking out loud.
If a caster wanted to cast without being noticed how would he/she do that? What would mask their castings? Would there be any way of doing that?
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You could old-school it and make it a percent or other die roll.
(-5% per 100ft from source)
Bard: 5% + 5% per level
Cleric: 5% + 5% per level
Druid: 10% + 5% per level
Paladin: 0% + 5% per two levels
Ranger: 0% + 5% per two levels
Sorcerer: 30% + 5% per level
Wizard: 20% + 5% per level
Half-Elf: +5% chance to notice magic.
Elf or Gnome: +10% chance to notice magic.
Dwarf: -10% chance to notice magic.
Magic Sense
Prerequisite: Wis 11+
Benefit: You have a 20% chance to notice magical effects. You cannot discern their nature unless you have a skill or ability that allows you to do so. If you already possess the ability to sense magic, your ability increases by 20% and you automatically determine the school of magic.
Jal, could you explain why Clerics start with a 5% chance and Druids start with a 10% chance of detecting magic use? I am curious about your reasoning.
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Either cast a lower level spell or get a metamagic feat to increase the DC. It's only a problem in unpopulated areas, since in a dense enough city, enough magic goes on that his spell would be masked by the chatter as it were.
Jal, I like that writeup. Percents has always felt a bit too swingy to me, but that is a good model.
I love this idea!
I agree with Silverhair, that it seems like detect magic should fit into the mix somewhere. I'm thinking maybe if you have that spell prepared, you can throw a Perception check at DC 40 - (2 x level of the spell being cast), with maybe a modifier for distance? Spellcraft would then be a follow-up to try and guess the nature of the "disturbance in the force" you just felt.
Both could work together. You feel 'a disturbance in the Force' and cast Detect Magic to see if it is in the area (within 60 ft). If not then a Spellcraft check could help identify what and where. Just another out loud thought process. I could be very off-base.
Since this is inspired by the Belgariad, there could also be some skill/feat/tweak that lets a caster try to conceal their magic use. Belgarath taught Belgarion to do some things slowly, just to make the sound softer. And while learning to use the Will and the Word, there were comments about Garion being audible for very long distances, a sign of his formidable potential. I'd guess that the relevant ability score modifier could also apply (as Garion wasn't exactly an epic-level mage at that point but still could do plenty).
Hmmm... if we're subtracting caster level AND spell level AND casting stat modifier from the check DC, it'll have to be inordinately high to begin with, and scaling quickly falls apart -- too many variables makes for greater "realism," but for poor game play.
TOZ - I wanted to restrict it to people with detect magic prepared (not actively cast), just so that everytime a spell is cast within an entire dungeon I don't need to go through and find every single monster with a caster level in there and roll separately for each one, which would grind play to a halt for then next seventeen years.
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Lathiira - So maybe the longer the spellcaster takes to cast the quieter it is? Every one round spent slowing the spell down increases the DC to 'hear' by one?
Kirth - I agree completely, hence why my initial idea was 'creatures with a +2 to the roll won't ever hear a DC 24 or 29 noise.'
So make it a higher level thing, since we don't mind the way spells work at lower levels? Maybe you can't even try to hear it until you're at least CR 7-8? Maybe not even until 10th?
Maybe spells up to 5th-6th level are just too 'soft' for average people to hear. That keeps us from having to check for all the mook adepts, but the BBEG is going to hear you coming if you fire the nukes first.
silverhair - That's actually exactly how I'm expecting it. *boom* 'What was that noise?' *detect*
So make it a higher level thing, since we don't mind the way spells work at lower levels? Maybe you can't even try to hear it until you're at least CR 7-8? Maybe not even until 10th?
Maybe spells up to 5th-6th level are just too 'soft' for average people to hear. That keeps us from having to check for all the mook adepts, but the BBEG is going to hear you coming if you fire the nukes first.
OK, so maybe it's only for 7th or higher level spells, and nobody unable to cast spells of level 7+ will notice? In that case, CL will more or less even out, and if we assume caster stats do, too, then we can just throw a straight Perception check at maybe DC 35 - (2 x spell level) to "sense the disturbance," and have the detect magic be a separate follow-up as you and Silverhair envisioned?
Lathiira - So maybe the longer the spellcaster takes to cast the quieter it is? Every one round spent slowing the spell down increases the DC to 'hear' by one?
Kirth - I agree completely, hence why my initial idea was 'creatures with a +2 to the roll won't ever hear a DC 24 or 29 noise.'
So make it a higher level thing, since we don't mind the way spells work at lower levels? Maybe you can't even try to hear it until you're at least CR 7-8? Maybe not even until 10th?
Maybe spells up to 5th-6th level are just too 'soft' for average people to hear. That keeps us from having to check for all the mook adepts, but the BBEG is going to hear you coming if you fire the nukes first.
silverhair - That's actually exactly how I'm expecting it. *boom* 'What was that noise?' *detect*
I'd probably just make it a straight modifier of some sort. If the caster uses more time than normal to cast a spell (upgrading from standard action-full round action-1 round etc.) then apply a modifier, say for example +3. The problem is having a means of increasing the casting time of the spell. I also remembered that the polymorph effect they use is naturally quiet anyway. This process could get complicated . . . .
Let us understand something here. I am in no way any type of 'expert' on gaming design or GMing. I am just thinking out loud and sometimes what I think of stinks to high heaven.
Just as an aside, a similar mechanic can be seen in the game "In Nomine". Where whenever an Angel or Demon (the protagonists) cast a spell it affects the universe and the ripples can beheard by others it makes for a political or stealthy game, as the casters try not to alert others to their presence.
Some spells are more flashy and can create a large disturbance, similar to when Belgarath tells Garion he is being loud. Perhaps there could be a skill/ feat to minimise the 'noise, a spell to create a null zone/ barrier or a 'flashbang' or even a feat to delay the ripple of the noise.
I love the idea of this , it seems to give an older feel where magic is very powerful but it has distinct limitations.
Just as an aside, a similar mechanic can be seen in the game "In Nomine". Where whenever an Angel or Demon (the protagonists) cast a spell it affects the universe and the ripples can beheard by others it makes for a political or stealthy game, as the casters try not to alert others to their presence.
Some spells are more flashy and can create a large disturbance, similar to when Belgarath tells Garion he is being loud. Perhaps there could be a skill/ feat to minimise the 'noise, a spell to create a null zone/ barrier or a 'flashbang' or even a feat to delay the ripple of the noise.
I love the idea of this , it seems to give an older feel where magic is very powerful but it has distinct limitations.
I'd love to have a "minimal impact spell" metamagic feat... but if only spells over 6th level can be auto-detected in the first place, then adding spell levels on top of that probably isn't going to happen. Maybe casting "quietly" could instead require a Spellcraft check (DC 25 + spell level), and would increase casting time to 1 full round.
What exactly are the mechanics used in In Nomine? Can you give us an idea?
With In Nomine, the spells are the casters trying to impose their will on the Universe and the "noise" made is a rejection of this (the natural order being disrupted).
Therefore anyone who can cast a spell can make a perception check, with a Check digit telling the caster some information:
1- Direction
2- Size of Disturbance
3- Type of Disturbance (spell cast, or other occurance)
4- Distance Away (to the mile)
5- Distance Away (to the yard)
6- Spell that has been cast.
Unfortunately, in the game the target of the skill check depends on the type of spell, or whether a celestial has tried to harm a human, or teleporting or summoning rituals.
With the perception check varying with distance from the origin, -1 per (perception x degree of disturbance).
The problems i see with doing this in Pathfinder is that if you are playing a high magic game there will be 'echoes in the ether', but that could be fun/ a tactic too.
Maybe certain schools of magc could have differing modifiers. Evocation the loudest, whereas divination has a minus to the skill check.
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Jal, could you explain why Clerics start with a 5% chance and Druids start with a 10% chance of detecting magic use? I am curious about your reasoning.
I gave classes with a more innate connection to magic a higher bonus. Druids and Clerics both "pray" for spells, but druids are natural. I suppose it doesn't really matter.
I'm thinking about Kirth's ideas too...
A couple of things about David Edding's Belgariad.
In the book there were extremely few practitioners. There were the disciples of Aldur and a few thousand Gromlem. In the book minor magics went by mostly un-noticed and it was only the epic-level magics that really brought attention to them.
They couldn't tell what the other practitioner's were doing. They could tell if it was a Gromlem or a Disciple and how much power they were throwing around. So just be able to tell if it is a divine or arcane caster.
I would suggest limiting the range that can be detected to 10' per level of spell and increase that to miles for epic level magics.