This came up in our game last night. A dragon is flying around and the wizard wants to put up a Wall of Force right in front of the dragon so the dragon would hit the wall, take damage, and then fall to the ground.
So he's just barely able to get in range (invisible) and he casts the wall. I made the dragon take damage on the wizard's turn, but it really should have been the dragon's turn.
We discussed it for a bit and came up with a rule that any creature moving horizontally that uses a mode of movement that cannot instantly be stopped/maintains its momentum (intentionally or unintentionally) into a solid object takes damage as if they were falling (1d6 per 10 ft of speed, ignoring first 10 ft of movement), but the damage is based on the last full round speed of the creature (max 20d6).
So the dragon (large size, juvenile) was flying (150' speed) and took a double move on his turn. So he takes 20d6 when he hits the wall of force.
If in this situation it was an Air Elemental (perfect maneuverability), it wouldn't have seen the wall of force. Now, if it's some other object that is made to instantly appear in front of the Air Elemental, the elemental can stop on a dime and so it wouldn't take damage.
I realize this doesn't scale down very well, so I'm looking for other suggestions or if anyone else has a simple system that adjudicates this sort of thing.
Thanks
Well a ring of featehr falling slows you to 60' per round. So as a SIMPLE fix I would remove 60 from your calculation.
Now if you want to get COMPLEX, the dragonm was moving 300' over 6 seconds which is 50' per second.
On earth if youfall from a height of 64' you will impact in 2 seconds at a speed of 64' per second and take in D*D terms 6d6 (or is it 5d6 for a fall from 64').
So if you wanted to scale it there, say for every 10' per second over 10 you take 1d6. This means that the dragon, going 50' per second would take 4d6.
That's correct, however, it seems VERY small. We initially tried to figure it out using this approach and abandoned it because it seemed too little damage.
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That's correct, however, it seems VERY small. We initially tried to figure it out using this approach and abandoned it because it seemed too little damage.
It SHOULD be very small. Think about it. If you were to run as fast as you could and hit a brick wall at top speed, yeah, it would hurt. Would it be very likely to cause broken bones or any really significant crippling injury? Unlikely, unless maybe you lowered your head down and smashed into it with the top of your skull. Most creatures should be incapable of moving so fast as to cripple themselves on impact. IMO you're being generous enough, allowing a spell that's not designed to deal damage to do so in the first place.
I agree... it should cause relatively minor damage but a hefty penalty to the fly check to stay aloft.
I'll revise this then. I'd say, considering the feedback given, that the damage should be 1d6 per 50' of movement?
Hey Veector... why do you look so familiar?
Well a ring of featehr falling slows you to 60' per round. So as a SIMPLE fix I would remove 60 from your calculation.
Now if you want to get COMPLEX, the dragonm was moving 300' over 6 seconds which is 50' per second.On earth if youfall from a height of 64' you will impact in 2 seconds at a speed of 64' per second and take in D*D terms 6d6 (or is it 5d6 for a fall from 64').
So if you wanted to scale it there, say for every 10' per second over 10 you take 1d6. This means that the dragon, going 50' per second would take 4d6.
I disagree. At 50'/second that's ~34 mph. Have you ever seen what happens to a car or a tractor-trailer that hits an immovable wall at 34 mph? It gets totaled. There is way more than 5d6 damage done to those vehicles at that kind of speed. The same applies to the dragon.
BTW, 5d6 averages to 17 points of damage which is about what our 9th level fighter averages on a single hit. It seems that a dragon flying at double speed into an immovable wall would take more damage than that.
The fact that the creature took a double move should have no bearing on the damage.
Damage is based on the kinetic energy of the object KE=1/2(MV^2). The reason that falling damage is so nasty is because your velocity increases the longer you fall. you are more likely to survive falling 10 times from a 10' platform than one fall from a 100' structure. But that is not how D&D works so lets just use momentum which is MV.
I would go with 1/2 of the movement speed of the creature or double that if they are doing a quadrupedal move. It doesn't matter if the creature hit the wall in the last square of it's movement or the first.
150' movement = 8d6
The fact that the creature took a double move should have no bearing on the damage.
Double move, Agreed. If however it was moving faster than that (running/sprinting) - which means faster than normal movement - then it would increase.
You know you love the bullywug! Can I say that? You know you love the boggard!
Just so you guys know, Fatman is a player in my game. Some of the discussion occurred last night as well. Why he picks that avatar? Um... maybe he's just trying to confuse you all!
You know you love the bullywug! Can I say that? You know you love the boggard!
Just so you guys know, Fatman is a player in my game. Some of the discussion occurred last night as well. Why he picks that avatar? Um... maybe he's just trying to confuse you all!
Bullywug love... I think I saw some of that in the movie Sideways...
Also on a side note (hopefully not a hijacker!), although I know this is not the way it works in Pathfinder for simplicities/heroics sake, but when we start to talk about falling damage, damage should probably be applied in terms of % of total hit points rather than in static points. The reason being that hit points themselves are a bit of an abstraction that encompasses not only actual physical damage, but also the combatants ability to "roll with the punches" etc, etc. - things that one can't do on the impact from a fall.
I think you'll end up with problems because HP is an abstraction that also encompasses general sturdiness and toughness of form. A muscular raging orc barbarian will be more likely to survive the shock and damage of a long fall than a frail wizard. Muscles and skin help protect bone from breaks and fractures.
I think you'll end up with problems because HP is an abstraction that also encompasses general sturdiness and toughness of form. A muscular raging orc barbarian will be more likely to survive the shock and damage of a long fall than a frail wizard. Muscles and skin help protect bone from breaks and fractures.
yeah, I know. It's a hairy mess. :-)
...the rule - not the muscular raging orc barbarian...
yeah, I know. It's a hairy mess. :-)
...the rule - not the muscular raging orc barbarian...
Actualy it is the barbarian
Hairy Mess the Half-Orc Barbarian.
Specialties include chiropractic adjustment and urban renewal.
A distinction should be made between impacts that the character are not aware of and impacts that the character can see coming. That will have an impact on the further distinction, which is conditions that allow the character to break and other where he can't.
Falling hurts because you can't slow your fall (unless you're a monk, in which case it hurts less). Falling in a condition where you can't see where or on what you fall can be lethal in real life, even over short distance.
Walking into a post doesn't hurt. Walking UNEXPECTEDLY into a post hurts. Running unexpectedly into a post may cause serious complications. A dragon flying at top speed into an invisible, unyielding wall of force SHOULD hurt.
Even if you can see the obstacle coming, checking your speed before you hit a wall hurt less. Being unable to check your speed before hitting the wall hurts more (anyone here plays hockey?)
While all of this should be considered for your rule, it does create a precedent where unexpected damage is greater. That may come back to bite you in the ass, such as "if running unexpectedly into a post causes more damage, how come hitting my (unsuspecting) foe does not allow me to cause more damage". Then you can answer that "if you where a rogue you could apply your sneak attack damage", but deep inside, you know that the fighter should do just the same thing...
'findel
A distinction should be made between impacts that the character are not aware of and impacts that the character can see coming. That will have an impact on the further distinction, which is conditions that allow the character to break and other where he can't.
If you aren't aware of the sudden stop coming up you would not be allowed an acrobatics check to reduce the damage.
In this case if the dragon had magic sight that allowed him to detect the wall he would get a save but in that case it would have been easy for him to avoid the obstacle.
I also think the 20d6 is a bit much... I would guess something like 15d6 reflex for half. Reflex save not so much because he would be able to react but because he's already likely dodging and weaving do to other things going on, making himself a tough target.
A distinction should be made between impacts that the character are not aware of and impacts that the character can see coming. That will have an impact on the further distinction, which is conditions that allow the character to break and other where he can't.
If you aren't aware of the sudden stop coming up you would not be allowed an acrobatics check to reduce the damage.
In this case if the dragon had magic sight that allowed him to detect the wall he would get a save but in that case it would have been easy for him to avoid the obstacle.
In that case I would have granted the dragon a Reflex Save. Success depends on how big the wall is. If the wall is too big to avoid entirely, maybe he's able to slow down just enough to take half damage. If the wall can be avoided (it could be in this case) he would take 0 damage.
Did the dragon have a way to detect the wall? If so why not fly around it?
If not then there is no reason for a save.
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Did the dragon have a way to detect the wall? If so why not fly around it?
If not then there is no reason for a save.
I'm not sure that's the right analysis, or if it is, then you should disallow saves in a much wider variety of situations. Does a person able to detect a pit trap beneath him before it opens? Does a blind and deaf person get a saving through against a fireball? A saving throw does not require that the threat is perceived, it just represents a reflexive last minute reaction to avoid danger.
Did the dragon have a way to detect the wall? If so why not fly around it?
If not then there is no reason for a save.
Because the dragon isn't necessarily flying in a straight line right at the wall and the wizard is casting the spell at a target moving fast and in three dimensions. There is a lot of uncertainty.
Does a blind and deaf person get a saving through against a fireball? A saving throw does not require that the threat is perceived, it just represents a reflexive last minute reaction to avoid danger.
I know that stating otherwise would probably unbalance the whole system, but being blind and deaf should somehow impair your ability to react to such threats. There's actually a precedent in the Flat-Footed condition that denies DEX bonus to AC. Now I'm not suggesting to create a "flat-footed" Reflex save, but some situations should be adjudicated by the DM. Not being able to perceive a wall of force is a situation that requires some DM input IMO. I'd give a save (or a skill check) if the dragon eared the spellcasting, recognized the spell and now expects to hit a wall of force that he knows he cannot perceive. Otherwise, hitting that wall will be a rough surprise...
I'm not sure that's the right analysis, or if it is, then you should disallow saves in a much wider variety of situations. Does a person able to detect a pit trap beneath him before it opens? Does a blind and deaf person get a saving through against a fireball? A saving throw does not require that the threat is perceived, it just represents a reflexive last minute reaction to avoid danger.
The person who fell into the pit has an advantage over the dragon. He knows he is falling.
The Dragon didn't know there was a wall there so no save.
The guy in the pit didn't know about the pit but by the time he hits bottom he has a chance to tumble i.e. reflex save.
Does a person able to detect a pit trap beneath him before it opens?
You can generally feel the floor start to give way beneath you while there's still time to jump back, yes.
Thanks to everyone for help and suggestions. At the mention from another player in the group, I looked up how d20 Modern handles vehicle collisions. It's slightly more cumbersome, but I think this system works very well.
Alley Speed = 5 mph/10 kmph (d20 Movement Speed 20)
Street Speed = up to 35 mph/60 kmph (d20 Movement Speed 50)
Highway Speed = up to 80 mph/130 kmph (d20 Movement Speed 150)
All-Out Speed = 80 mph+/130 kmph+ (d20 Movement Speed 150+)
Here's the text from the d20 Modern SRD...
Collisions and Ramming
A collision occurs when a vehicle strikes another vehicle or a solid object. Generally, when a vehicle collides with a creature or other moving vehicle, the target can attempt a Reflex save (DC 15) to reduce the damage by half. (veector: I would grant the same save to reduce the damage to 0 if the creature has enough space to avoid the object entirely, depending on where the obstacle was placed and the maneuverability class of the creature.)
Resolving Collisions
The base damage dealt by a vehicle collision depends on the speed and size of the objects involved. Use the highest speed and the smallest size of the two colliding objects and refer to Table: Collision Damage.
Table: Collision Damage
Highest Speed//Damage Die Type
Alley speed//d2
Street speed//d4
Highway speed//d8
All-out//d12
Smallest Object or Creature Size//Number of Dice
Colossal//20
Gargantuan//16
Huge//12
Large//8
Medium-size//4
Small//2
Tiny//1
Smaller than Tiny//0
After finding the base damage, determine the collision’s damage multiplier based on how the colliding vehicle struck the other vehicle or object. (For vehicles moving in reverse, consider the back end to be the vehicle’s “front” for determining the collision multiplier.) Consult Table: Collision Direction for a multiplier.
Once the damage has been determined, apply it to both vehicles (or objects or creatures) involved in the collision. Both vehicles reduce their speed by two speed categories. If the colliding vehicle moved the minimum number of squares for its new speed category before the collision, it ends its movement immediately. If not, it pushes the other vehicle or object aside, if possible, and continues until it has moved the minimum number of squares for its new speed category.
Table: Collision Direction
Colliding Vehicle’s Target//Multiplier
A stationary object//x 1
A moving vehicle, striking head-on or 45 degrees from head-on//x 2
A moving vehicle, striking perpendicular//x 1
A moving vehicle, striking from the rear or 45 degrees from the rear//x 1/2
A vehicle being sideswiped (see Sideswipe)//x 1/4
Thanks to everyone for help and suggestions. At the mention from another player in the group, I looked up how d20 Modern handles vehicle collisions. It's slightly more cumbersome, but I think this system works very well...
Interesting. While there's some strangeness to it I think the smaller object should take the number of dice caused by the larger object and the larger object should take the number of dice caused by the smaller. Like a Yugo getting hit by an 18-wheeler - the Yugo gets totally smashed and the 18-wheeler gets a dent... momentum.
Have you ever seen a bird fly at full speed into a plate glass window and break its neck? I have. More than once. It's unpleasant, but it's physics at work.
The physics is the same for the dragon. The only reason I can see for people not wanting the dragon to be killed by this, or at least seriously injured, is because dragons are some people's sacred wubbies and they don't want to see them killed by the same physics that kills swallows and bluejays.
Wizards are subtle, and sometimes they have exactly the right tool in the drawer for the task at hand. My necromancer recently killed a vicious man-eating griffin with a single spell: Cause Blindness. It was swooping through a forest, and suddenly blind, it smacked into a tree.
I think applying the falling damage rules is exactly the right approach. And the sacred wubby, ahem, dragon, doesn't even get its cheesy magic resistance because the wall of force wasn't cast on it.
Have you ever seen a bird fly at full speed into a plate glass window and break its neck? I have. More than once. It's unpleasant, but it's physics at work.
The physics is the same for the dragon.
Physics is a house rule. It doesn't apply to D&D. If it did, we'd be back to 2nd edition when casting a fireball into a 10x10 room blew up the dungeon.
The only reason I can see for people not wanting the dragon to be killed by this, or at least seriously injured, is because dragons are some people's sacred wubbies and they don't want to see them killed by the same physics that kills swallows and bluejays.
Or maybe -- just maybe, mind -- because they don't want a 5th level spell designed as a non-offensive weapon (indeed, you wouldn't even break invisibility by using a wall of force in this manner) to be turned into a save-or-die against a CR<arbitrary> flying creature?
It's called "game balance".
Physics is a house rule. It doesn't apply to D&D. If it did, we'd be back to 2nd edition when casting a fireball into a 10x10 room blew up the dungeon.
It did that in 1st ed too. It was changed mostly because calculating volumes for blowback was boring, not because a spell couldn't work that way.
Or maybe -- just maybe, mind -- because they don't want a 5th level spell designed as a non-offensive weapon (indeed, you wouldn't even break invisibility by using a wall of force in this manner) to be turned into a save-or-die against a CR<arbitrary> flying creature?
It's called "game balance".
Falling damage is not "save or die." It does a certain amount of damage that you can survive if you have enough HP.
The illusionist can use a 1st level spell to make the top of a tower appear a few feet one way or the other or shorter than it should be with the same net effect: Smack!
I've heard of wizards taking out dragons with a cantrip and a cheap alchemical item: Launch Object and a Tanglefoot Bag. Dragon failed its save, and since it was dramatically swooping over a chasm at the moment, plummeted to its death. Another dragon, slain by the evil wizard's "physics."
And "game balance" sounds an awful lot like dragon's being someone's sacred wubbie. There are other ways to deal with them than just beating on them with a sword until they don't get up.
Falling damage is not "save or die." It does a certain amount of damage that you can survive if you have enough HP.
That's not what you were talking about, though. You were talking about creature breaking their necks by flying into objects at full speed.
And "game balance" sounds an awful lot like dragon's being someone's sacred wubbie.
And ignoring game balance in this manner is just advancing spellcasters as your own sacred wubbie. Spellcasters are special! They can kill any monster they want because they're my precious!
Falling damage is not "save or die." It does a certain amount of damage that you can survive if you have enough HP.That's not what you were talking about, though. You were talking about creature breaking their necks by flying into objects at full speed.
Apologies for being unclear. If 20d6 horizontal falling damage kills the dragon, I, as DM, usually explain it in some dramatic fashion. For example, the dragon snapping its neck.
Similarly, if the fighter in one blow brings the goblin to -11 HP or more, I'll say he beheaded it or cleft it in twain or somesuch. Unless he was using a mace, in which case its head explodes.
And "game balance" sounds an awful lot like dragon's being someone's sacred wubbie.And ignoring game balance in this manner is just advancing spellcasters as your own sacred wubbie. Spellcasters are special! They can kill any monster they want because they're my precious!
Actually, any character who does something clever is generally my precious. If the rogue manages to rig up a giant cheese slicer out of two Immobile Rods and an adamantium tripwire then somehow gets the dragon to fly into it? I'm not just going to snap the wire because the dragon has some silly CR. It's the rogue's Bluff vs the dragon's sense motive, and if the dragon fails, then he flies into the adamantium cheese grater and the only perk I may give him is a roll to see whether it takes off his head or just his wings.
The shadowcaster in the game I'm running recently tricked a legendary chimera into eating a poisoned apple he bought from a green hag in fairyland. The chimera rolled suck on its sense motive and on subsequent saving throws, so it is now a dead chimera. Maybe it wasn't an epic battle, but it got the job done.
I'm not just going to snap the wire because the dragon has some silly CR.
You're the only one here suggesting such a thing.
I'm not just going to snap the wire because the dragon has some silly CR.You're the only one here suggesting such a thing.
You seem to be suggesting that the Wall of Force should somehow not damage the dragon who runs into it at full speed. I don't see much difference between that and the adamantium tripwire.
And if the wizard puts the horizontal Wall of Force into the same square as some huge creature doing a horizontal power dive, I'm thinking the dragon is going to be cut rather badly.
Actually Kevin those sound like pretty epic stuff to me. People tend to forget in most legends and myths the "hero" tends to fight dirty, cheat and outright lie to win. A hero that talks a chimera into eating poisoned apples is a great tale as in the one about a rogue that managed to "snicker snack" a dragon's head right off with an adamantine cheese grater is quite a clever little tale in and of itself. Heck, Beowolf hid in a hole to attack his dragon from hiding, Odysseus tricked the cyclops in order to kill it, and Perseus cheated by using Medusa's head to kill the Kraken, and they are still good stories, just as the one where the man got past Cerberus with sleep poisoned treats.
You seem to be suggesting that the Wall of Force should somehow not damage the dragon who runs into it at full speed.
Please cite.
You seem to be suggesting that the Wall of Force should somehow not damage the dragon who runs into it at full speed.Please cite.
You said, and I quote:
Or maybe -- just maybe, mind -- because they don't want a 5th level spell designed as a non-offensive weapon (indeed, you wouldn't even break invisibility by using a wall of force in this manner) to be turned into a save-or-die against a CR<arbitrary> flying creature?
It's called "game balance".
You said, and I quote:
Or maybe -- just maybe, mind -- because they don't want a 5th level spell designed as a non-offensive weapon (indeed, you wouldn't even break invisibility by using a wall of force in this manner) to be turned into a save-or-die against a CR<arbitrary> flying creature?
It's called "game balance".
Saying that it shouldn't be save or die is a long shot from saying it should cause no damage.
Saying that it shouldn't be save or die is a long shot from saying it should cause no damage.
He never said it should be save or die. He said it would be "fall" damage.
He never said it should be save or die. He said it would be "fall" damage.
Saying that it shouldn't be save or die is a long shot from saying it should cause no damage.
Have you ever seen a bird fly at full speed into a plate glass window and break its neck? I have. More than once. It's unpleasant, but it's physics at work.
The physics is the same for the dragon. The only reason I can see for people not wanting the dragon to be killed by this ... is because dragons are some people's sacred wubbies and they don't want to see them killed by the same physics that kills swallows and bluejays.
You're right, he didn't say it should be save-or-die. He implied that it should just be die.
He never said it should be save or die. He said it would be "fall" damage.
Saying that it shouldn't be save or die is a long shot from saying it should cause no damage.
*sigh*
I was simply pointing out that Z never said it shouldn't do any damage. Kevin put those words in him mouth. I guess Zurai kind of assumed Kevin was suggesting save or die... so Zurai's assumption that Kevin meant save or die led to Kevin's assumption that Zurai wanted no damge was derailed by a partial reading of my poorly written comments...
Are we all clear now?
You're right, he didn't say it should be save-or-die. He implied that it should just be die.Have you ever seen a bird fly at full speed into a plate glass window and break its neck? I have. More than once. It's unpleasant, but it's physics at work.
The physics is the same for the dragon. The only reason I can see for people not wanting the dragon to be killed by this ... is because dragons are some people's sacred wubbies and they don't want to see them killed by the same physics that kills swallows and bluejays.
No he didn't. He said he has seen it happen in real life. That is not the same as saying it should happen in a game. He did mention that if the "falling" damage (assuming he meant from the calculations from veector (I think on spelling) did earlier) killed it he would describe it out for his players.
*sigh*
I was simply pointing out that Z never said it shouldn't do any damage. Kevin put those words in him mouth. I guess Zurai kind of assumed Kevin was suggesting save or die...
This.
Assumptions are common with Zurai, in all directions. It seems to stem from purposeful misreading of posts and never quite saying anything.
However Zurai didn't actually say it shouldn't do any damage, and Kevin didn't actually say the beast should just fall over and die, though both did assume the other meant just that.
Guess some plainer speech and gentler assumptions would be in order.
I think that's about the size of it.
To come up with another example, let's say we've got a paladin, a blackguard, or some other mounted character riding down the street at breakneck speed. It's one of those twisty little medieval cities, so this is probably not a good idea, but it's an even less good idea since the good or evil wizard (doesn't really matter which) casts Wall of Iron followed by Invisibility before taunting the paladin or blackguard.
How much damage do horse and rider take as they smack into the iron wall?
Horizontal falling damage is about the only way to model this in game.
And if the dice pool greatly exceeds the HP total of the horse or rider, it's often simpler to not roll it and just narrate their death. At least in the case of NPCs, as I'm the DM and I can have them drop dead of heart failure if it suits my narrative purpose.
