One thing that's worth noting is that diabolism has, in fact, been a disaster for Cheliax.
The country was founded as a colony of Taldor 1700 years ago. It declared its independence six centuries ago, and then conquered and controlled most of Taldor's provinces. At its height, it controlled Andoran, Galt, Isger, Molthune, Nidal, Nirmathas, Korvosa, and Sargava. Look at the map: that is a truly staggering amount of territory, possibly half of Avistan, that was part of the Chelish empire for more than 500 years.
Then there was the death of Aroden, the 30 years' war, and the rise of the House of Thrune. With the advent of diabolism, every single one of Cheliax's provinces successfully rebelled (except Nidal and Isger). Cheliax, once the most powerful empire in Avistan, controls a tiny fraction of its former territory. Its former capital, Westcrown, once the shining jewel of Avistan, is now a crumbling, decaying ruin overtaken by monsters and shadows.
Meanwhile, all of the good guy nations have their own problems with corruption and decadence, internal instability, or just the basic problems of fledgling independence.
One thing that's worth noting is that diabolism has, in fact, been a disaster for Cheliax.
The country was founded as a colony of Taldor 1700 years ago. It declared its independence six centuries ago, and then conquered and controlled most of Taldor's provinces. At its height, it controlled Andoran, Galt, Isger, Molthune, Nidal, Nirmathas, Korvosa, and Sargava. Look at the map: that is a truly staggering amount of territory, possibly half of Avistan, that was part of the Chelish empire for more than 500 years.
Then there was the death of Aroden, the 30 years' war, and the rise of the House of Thrune. With the advent of diabolism, every single one of Cheliax's provinces successfully rebelled (except Nidal and Isger). Cheliax, once the most powerful empire in Avistan, controls a tiny fraction of its former territory. Its former capital, Westcrown, once the shining jewel of Avistan, is now a crumbling, decaying ruin overtaken by monsters and shadows.
Meanwhile, all of the good guy nations have their own problems with corruption and decadence, internal instability, or just the basic problems of fledgling independence.
The obvious counter-argument is that diabolism has saved it from getting worse and put it in position to recover. The sudden and unexpected death of Aroden on the eve of his expected reappearance in Westcrown and subsequent civil war would be extremely traumatic, both physically and psychologicially. Diabolism offers a return to stability and power.
Getting rid of levelers and murderers in Galt, grasping merchants in Andoren, militant malcontent traitors in Molthune (note: during the civil unrest before the diabolists consolidated power), and pirates in Sargava allows Cheliax to focus on what's important - recovering the strength that will allow them to retake their place, lost in the turmoil surrounding Aroden's death.
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The best way to frame it is that the ruling classes of Cheliax believe they are the ones in control of all the devils. They bind and control devils and even have the upper hand in most deals with them.
People might say that the Chelaxians are eeeeevil, but the Chelaxians would respond:
"Devils are evil, and we bind them, control them and give them purpose for a greater social good. Because of this people can farm, have families, trade and live in peace and prosperity. Would you let these innocent people go to war just because you disagree with our choice of beast of burden?"
This is taken from someone commenting on Glorantha regarding Chaos and Nuclear Power but I think it applies here. Summoning and Controlling devils is just like dealing with Nuclear Power: great stuff as long as you don't get any on you.
It is very important to Chelaxian society to make clear that you are the one in control when summoning devils . Failure to maintain that control is a great shame (this is talked about in "Bastards of Erebus";
A tiefling, however, represents a loss of that control—either in using one’s power to satisfy pointless desires or an instance of the slave becoming the master.
I've always limited Detect Evil to work on creatures, spells and locations that are supernaturally evil. The Detect Evil spell in the Patfinder rules moves a bit in this direction. A human rogue that is LE but lower than 6 Hit Dice does not detect as 'Evil'. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/detect-evil-1
The trouble with Scry and Slay is that it amounts to terrorism. You have your diabolist, happily summoning devils in his own house, paying all appropriate taxes and having all the necessary permits, and suddenly this gang of yahoos scry him, pop in, kill him and loot the place, then pop out.
If I were the Cheliaxian authorities, I would be rather upset about this. Not only has a fine upstanding citizen been murdered, but he's now no longer paying taxes, which is bad for the economy.
I would arrange for a Speak with Dead with the corpse, unless it's been stolen or desecrated, and if that's not possible, a few various divinations, assuming there aren't any witnesses. If the diabolist had an imp familiar, I'd just summon this back from Hell and bind it to tell me what went down, and if that's insufficient, simply check purchase records at the local magic item dealers to know what items the deceased had and their descriptions so I'd know what to look for when the loot comes on the market again and the thieves dump the stolen goods they can't use.
With all this, which will not cost very much, I should have the names and identities of the murder suspects in rather short order. I'll have the appropriate warrants written up and send Hell Knights to go and arrest them, unless scrying and divination shows them to be outside of Cheliax. For nations which are friendly to Cheliax, I'll work on extradition. For those with no relations, I'll send bounty hunters. For those actively hostile, I think a covert squad of Hell Knights might be in order, especially if scrying the suspects reveals them to be wearing any of the magic items previously owned by the murder victim.
Once the suspects are brought back, preferably alive, they'll be stripped naked and questioned separately while blindfolded in magical darkness so even if they have a Stilled Silent Eschewed Misdirection set up, there will be nothing for it to work on, so Zone of Truth and Discern Lies should ascertain the truth, and if that's not working for some reason, Dominate Person and Charm Person should get a confession.
Once we finally find the murderers (and we will), the judge will decide their fates. Usually it will be something along the lines of their souls being sold to appropriate devils and the corpses used for necromancy, but lesser sentences, including slavery, are also possible. Asmodeus is not a merciful god, but he is a clever one, and the judge will decide the best way that the condemned may serve Hell. Ahem, Cheliax.
If there are sufficient proceeds from the apprehension of these criminals and the liquidation of their property -- usually at auction -- the murder victim will be raised, assuming that this fits with what is best for the continued prosperity of Cheliax and the greater glory of Asmodeus.
Part of what I'm asking is for arguements for why it isn't a Bad Idea to advertise that you're Lawful Evil to anyone strong enough and Knights Templar enough to try and remove the devil perching openly in the middle of the civilized world.
Personally I interpret the situation as one where we're metagaming. Alignment is something we know about, not the citizens of Golarion. In Cheliax, things appear to be working better than they were before Thrune took over. I assume the overtly evil stuff is sort of... behind the curtain. Average Joe doesn't think about it or know about it per se.
As for the progression of characters to 15th in two years, I'd like to reference Eberron. The whole setting was like that: PCs rise in fame and power is hugely rapid but the setting as a whole is relatively bereft of high-level NPCs. Not totally, but the spotlight is on those who succeed. Heroes are special and rare. Our campaigns are about those special people, not those who struggle for a couple decades to pull off the heady heights of fourth level.
There is also the flip side to the question, that is where are the high level bad guys.
The good guys aren't doing that because they don't want the bad guys from doing the same to them. That is, while they are taking out the leadership of Cheliax, the high level bad guys are doing the same to Andoran.
Another couple of points to consider.
1) The scry and fry approach would be murder. Murder is usually considered an evil act and would not be supported by good gods and good guy countries.
2) It would most likely solidify support for the devil faction in Cheliax, as there is nothing like an active enemy to rally the country behind you.
Real world examples:
South Africa when it was ruled by the apartheid government. Most did not consider that government a "nice" one, but it was efficient and effective for the most part. The regime change happened from within, it was not imposed by outside forces (I will admit to not having done a lot of research on this, this is just my impression from the news articles that I saw at the time).
Iran today. A lot of people believe that they are working on nuclear weapons and that they support terrorist groups. Why hasn't Iran been invaded by the west?
Because there are high level bad guys too? And they may be non-retarded enough to cast the spells to keep scrying and teleporting from working all that well? And maybe, since they're evil, they take out contracts with the Red Mantis on any aspiring do-gooders crossing 14th level just to be sure?
Just show him this thread. Don't make the argument yourself when you got several different viewpoints available here for your use.
Ditto. It's a big world, with lots of forces at work. Add in the Age of Omens, and you've got yourself a world in turmoil, dying for real heroes. Do your best in that context, if you live.
Nobody has the luxury of making it all how they want it, not even the gods. A single 20th level party has only a local effect, and can't change the whole world. No great divine interventions, no fast, massive change without negative consequences (What will the supporting rebels do for food? They have to eat, you know, and you can't feed them all).
May it stay that way.
Because there are high level bad guys too?
Exactly. And they also have Law on their side. If some paralictor opposes you and tells you to surrender, and you ask him "you and what army?", he just has to point in any direction and say "this one".
And we won't even go into the antics of the Taldor.
See? The Taldanes admit it themselves. They're so bad he cannot even talk about it.
And they even exploit their own people.
Andoran should inva... liberate the country.
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And we won't even go into the antics of the Taldor.
See? The Taldanes admit it themselves. They're so bad he cannot even talk about it.
And they even exploit their own people.
Andoran should inva... liberate the country.
They're on the list. Mind you, so's Cheliax.
To be fair, it is rather a long list.
Exactly. And they also have Law on their side. If some paralictor opposes you and tells you to surrender, and you ask him "you and what army?", he just has to point in any direction and say "this one".
This, not only that, it's easier for evil characters to get an advantage. Remember evil characters use poisons and other underhanded tactics, and devils can easily trick strong warriors into helping as opposed to the paladin bridage that cannot deceive.
They're on the list. Mind you, so's Cheliax.
Yeah, but unlike Cheliax, you might actually have a chance against Taldor.
They're a bunch of sorry has-beens whose days are already numbered - they have until Quadira gets tired of not crushing them like the bugs they are, or until all the mercenaries they buy realise that the vast riches are open to them even without servitude, because Taldor only has that money, and if people rob you instead of work for you, that money won't help you a bit.
Cheliax, on the other hand, is power incarnate. Even Hell itself bows before the Empires power, so while everyone calls Cheliax the Infernal Empire, in league with hell, those devils are the least of your problems, because even if you could best them (which you couldn't), you have to face their masters next.
Of course, everybody knows that eagle knights have too little heads which makes it hard for any big thoughts to find room in there, so I'll just leave you to your own devices and watch from the gallery.
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Well, just think about history in the real world:
Hitler ruled Germany for 12 years and only the allies fighting in WWII stopped him. (I don' want to imagine our word if they didn't).
Idi Amin ruled for 9 years, from 1971 till 1979, and no one stopped him (and it has been said that he was a cannibal)
Stalin ruled from 1922 till 1953 and if he would not have died, he would have kept ruling......
.....just to name a few.
It ain't easy to defeat evil.
One of the key tenants I've read of Chelaxian propaganda is that the devils serve Cheliax, Cheliax doesn't serve the devils. That gives some heavy plausible deniability there (and there certainly will be LN priests of Asmodeus who will use devils for some good acts).
That plus the military might of Cheliax seems to provide plenty of believability for me.