"Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells and BAB +6 or better" fails as wording, though, because then your fighter 1/wizard 10 can still get in.
They can with the current pre-req, though.
The only issue I have with that is it restricts the martial class to fighter. I wonder why that would be something that is wanted. Surely Ranger, Paladin or even Barbarian could also be used but since none get access to the "fighter only" specialization they would not help qualify for the class.
If you're going for the warrior-mage thing, you could pick up 4 levels of EK for Weapon Spec.
Off the cuff thoughts:
1. Thus a wizard will require 3 levels of fighter to enter this class for its 9th character level. A sorceror will require 2 levels of fighter to enter this class at 9th character level, and a Bard requires one level of fighter for weapon proficiencies, so he enters it at 9th level too. That's very late for PRC entry. Usually it happens around 7th level.
2. Abjurant armor: +5 to AC for mage armor, +5 for shield, in 10 levels? I am comparing to the +1/4 levels in monk / fighter classes. Getting +1/2 levels for the expenditure of spells and the investment already placed in the character may be justified, but you might want to limit it to one effect at a time.
3. Athame is freaking cool. It is so cool and so perfectly flavored for the class, I cannot conceive of any Arcane Warrior not taking it. It might be better to make that a straight part of the class. Hmm....thought: sorcerors and bards don't have this option, they don't have bonded items. Bard spells are meant to be uttered while fighting, I can see them not needing it so much, but this might be a big disadvantage for sorcerors wishing to enter this class.
4. Aura of Unluck: compared to the others, this is very weak. I would't bother ever taking it, even as a sorc or bard - blur is much better.
5. Casting Celerity looks good. I want to take it, but I want more of it. That says to me it's probably just about right.
6. I would not take diligent Rapidity unless I was in a predominantly aquatic campaign or it was a prerequisite for a cool ability later.
7. Evasive Celerity: The wording seems odd. If I don't take this until 7th level, will I "miss out" on the +10% spell failure against me at 6th?
8. I would never take fire aura in a million years either. I view talents as more precious than spells,I view talents as more precious than spells, and anything that simply emulates a spell doesn't appeal to me. It is nice that it's a swift action but it doesn't last as long as the spell....not worth taking to me.
Jess -- thanks for the quick reply! In general, a lot of the wankiness in ability strength is an artefact of the fact that I'm pulling pieces from multiple different PrCs, none of which were particularly well-balanced or playtested.
In terms of specific comments, let's take a look at them and see what we can do:
1. Yeah, that is a bit late, but it mirrors the Arcane Archer, more or less. I'm inclined to say something like, "BAB +5, able to cast 2nd level arcane spells. Your caster level cannot be higher than your BAB," specifically because I don't want a wizard 8/fighter 1 to qualify. In that case, fighter 3/wizard 4 is a green light... or bard 7 (skald variant gets all martial weapons and can cast while fighting).
2. You mean abjurant champion is broken? But, yeah, I agree. "When using one or more personal Abjuration spells that provide a bonus to AC, you gain an additional +1 competence bonus to AC per 2 arcane warrior levels you possess."
3. (a) Sorcerers with arcane bloodline: good to go. For others, what do you think of an "arcane bond" feat? That way you could have rogues with familiars, bards with bonded weapons, etc. (b) In terms of "must take," what if the various abilities were separated into a chain of like 3 different talents, or a talent and two feats, or whatever?
4. Yeah, the hexblade kind of sucked anyway. This ability should be boosted to match the others. Swift activation immediately makes it more attractive...
5. Agreed.
6. Yep. You'll notice I left it out of the sample Swiftblade build in the email. But why not provide the option?
7. Wording was pasted from the Swiftblade in a hurry, putting this together. I'll go back and wordsmith it into shape.
8. Yeah, I thought it was a bit lame, too. It's meant to emulate the jade phoenix mage stance, but it seems like I got the power level wrong. Will beef it up a bit.
Kirth:
I'm still mulling my final ideas around but I am inclined to just ditch the boost to shield (abjurant armor) and give the class some arcane armor training that works. I don't care for the swift action arcane armor training because it is one of those things that changes every single round and that bugs the heck out of me.
I don't care for the swift action arcane armor training because it is one of those things that changes every single round and that bugs the heck out of me.
Yeah, me, too; I've already houseruled the activation requirement out of that feat chain; somehow I'd assumed everyone else had as well.
I don't care for the swift action arcane armor training because it is one of those things that changes every single round and that bugs the heck out of me.Yeah, me, too; I've already houseruled the activation requirement out of that feat chain; somehow I'd assumed everyone else had as well.
This is one of my big irritations with PfRPG actually, lots of new things that are 1 round in duration or "While X" durations. Really frustrating to keep up with these intermittent conditions that might or might not be active at any given moment.
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Thanks to Qunnessaa for the support. I'm going to try to rewrite Diverse Training to suit my idea better.
Diverse Training: Choose one class. Your levels in Arcane Warrior count as levels in that class for determining one class ability. (I.E. fighter feats, smite evil, wild empathy, etc.) This talent can be selected multiple times. You cannot select the same class ability twice.
I didn't want to word it as a blanket statement and have it being abused. (I get better at Weapon Training and Armor Training and Bravery and feats and everything!) That's not the point of it. But this way, you can choose what advances, be it Rage points or whatever.
I'm trying to think of what prereqs the class could have to accomplish the goal as well. Nothing coming to mind yet.
but with non magical melee types, they get to do their things all day long, while the caster has some sort of limit.That's a common argument, but that fact is at high levels, melee guys will run out of hit points (and/or rounds of rage) long before the casters will ever run out of spells.
Not if the cleric is doing what they are supposed to as their part of party roles. Also rings of regeneration is a good idea at higher levels.
P.S. I agree that melee types can't do enough in the game, but sense they accentual do what they do far many more times than casters there has to be a lot less powerful. PRPG has though brought down key feats needlessly so the problem is by far more than a single PRC, but a key problem with the game itself.
Thanks to Qunnessaa for the support. I'm going to try to rewrite Diverse Training to suit my idea better.
Diverse Training: Choose one class. Your levels in Arcane Warrior count as levels in that class for determining one class ability. (I.E. fighter feats, smite evil, wild empathy, etc.) This talent can be selected multiple times. You cannot select the same class ability twice.
I was thinking about this but the problem is not all class features are created equal. EK only gets bonus feats at 1,5,and 10 now I think. Was trying to figure a way to make it reasonable but couldn't.
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I was thinking about this but the problem is not all class features are created equal. EK only gets bonus feats at 1,5,and 10 now I think. Was trying to figure a way to make it reasonable but couldn't.
Yeah, but they also have d10 HD instead of d6. They're not doing half badly this time around. Better than they were before at least. Personally I would have liked to have seen an additional feat, but I'm not picky when you get an additional 4 HP a level.
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Looking at the arcane warrior some more...
I don't believe the arcane archer orignally required quite so much spellcasting - I believe it only requires one caster level. Requiring 5 caster levels for the Arcane warrior pretty seriously changes the class.
I think you should be able to represent both the eldritch knight and arcane archer with the same prestige class - the concept is very close.
I"m thinking, if you split the difference between 3rd level spells and 1st level spells, you'd get second. The eldritch knight requires only one level of fighter, while the arcane archer requires BaB +6. As the BaB of a Pathfinder Eldritch Knight entering asap would be (Wiz 5/Fighter 1) +3, +5 seems a fair enough compromise, though I'd be interested in looking at if +4 made sense.
If arcane archer abilities are balanced for low caster level but Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight, Spellsinger and Swiftblade abilities are more balanced for higher caster level, it seems fair to have caster level be a prerequisite for some of the talents, as required. For example, swiftblade talents make no sense if the character doesn't have access to haste.
Changing the prereqs of the class to second level spells and BaB +5 and proficiency with all martial weapons gives these entry points:
- Wizard 3/Fighter 4
- Sorceror 4/Fighter 3
- Battle Sorceror 4/Fighter 2
- Bard 4/Fighter 2
That list doesn't look to broken to me. What do you think? I think it will allow fighter heavy builds just as well as caster heavy builds.
Oh, and the Arcane Warrior talent Enhance Weapon needs to be looked at. First - enhance arrow abilities stack with bow abilities. Forcing the weapon or athame to be magicless as the arrows are is a pretty big nerf compared to Enhance arrows. Second, Distance as the ability at 5th level makes no sense. :)
1. Changing the prereqs of the class to second level spells and BaB +5 and proficiency with all martial weapons...
2. If arcane archer abilities are balanced for low caster level but Abjurant Champion, Eldritch Knight, Spellsinger and Swiftblade abilities are more balanced for higher caster level, it seems fair to have caster level be a prerequisite for some of the talents, as required.
3. Enhance arrow abilities stack with bow abilities. Forcing the weapon or athame to be magicless as the arrows are is a pretty big nerf compared to Enhance arrows.
4. Distance as the ability at 5th level makes no sense.
Hi, Jess! I've suspended myself from general posting as profitless and needlessly frustrating, but I'm here for consultation. In reply to your points here:
1. Great minds... I'd come up with EXACTLY those prerequisites myself!
2. Agreed. I'll look into that. In fact, I may end up formatting them like the feats and fighter talents, so that prerequisites get their own section.
3. Agreed. Will edit that.
4. Yeah, but that's the way Arcane Archer is written. But I think that keeping it general "add a +1 equivalent proprty at X level" might be a better bet.
In regards to the JPM fire aura stance, I'm of the opinion that a swift action fire shield with potentially infinite duration is a bit much. I'm inclinded to go with 1 round/spell level used, keep it a swift activation (rather than standard, because standard activation = not used 99% of the time), and have it duplicate fire shield and also something like a wall of fire with you as the wall (i.e., X fire damage/rd. within 5 ft., 2X within 10 ft., or whatever).
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In regards to the JPM fire aura stance, I'm of the opinion that a swift action fire shield with potentially infinite duration is a bit much. I'm inclinded to go with 1 round/spell level used, keep it a swift activation (rather than standard, because standard activation = not used 99% of the time), and have it duplicate fire shield and also something like a wall of fire with you as the wall (i.e., X fire damage/rd. within 5 ft., 2X within 10 ft., or whatever).
The Jade Phoenix Mage ability:
Requires TWO swift actions to use. One to initiate a different ability, another to initiate this one in place of the original.
While active, you gain resist fire 10
Your caster level on fire spells cast while in this stance = CL +3
If you expend a spell while activating this stance, you deal 1d6 / level of spell slot sacrificed to everyone within 10 Feet (Reflex Half, DC 14+spellcasting ability modifier). Half of the damage is fire damage, half is raw arcane energy (and ignores fire resistance or immunity). The fiery aura lasts for no more than 1 minute, though you may leave this stance as a swift action.
The stance without damage can last an entire combat. Only if the fire damage portion is invoked does the stance last 10 rounds.
Yeah, I read it and understood it, but I had this overwhelming urge to reference a core mechanic:
Fire resistance + fire damage vs. people in melee with you = fire shield spell!
Like, it seemed like it should be such a good fit that I couldn't not use it!
Or maybe not. It's a difficult ability to force into the new prestige class anyway -- because for the JPM to use it, they're giving up something (the effects of the other stance), whereas it's ALL benefit for the ArcWar because they don't by default have a "stance" up at all times.
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Yeah, I read it and understood it, but I had this overwhelming urge to reference a core mechanic:
Fire resistance + fire damage vs. people in melee with you = fire shield spell!
Like, it seemed like it should be such a good fit that I couldn't not use it!
Or maybe not. It's a difficult ability to force into the new prestige class anyway -- because for the JPM to use it, they're giving up something (the effects of the other stance), whereas it's ALL benefit for the ArcWar because they don't by default have a "stance" up at all times.
I guess, but I think it's pretty different. You're doing damage to everyone around you. It's more like Body of the Sun (2nd level druid / sorc / wizard spell, spell compendium), with some resist energy thrown in.
Hm. To make it more flavorful, maybe have it require the sacrifice of a spell slot with an elemental type (earth, air, water, fire, acid, cold, lightning) spell in the slot or available in the slot (sorcs), and they gain "[elemental type] shield" equivalent to [level sacrificed] level for 1d4+[level sacrificed] rounds. that would preven 0 level spell (no "slots"), but if that chill touch isn't going to be useful today, 1d4 rounds of ice shield is still cool.
Hm. To make it more flavorful, maybe have it require the sacrifice of a spell slot with an elemental type (earth, air, water, fire, acid, cold, lightning) spell in the slot or available in the slot (sorcs), and they gain "[elemental type] shield" equivalent to [level sacrificed] level for 1d4+[level sacrificed] rounds. that would preven 0 level spell (no "slots"), but if that chill touch isn't going to be useful today, 1d4 rounds of ice shield is still cool.
Ooh! I like that!
Hm. To make it more flavorful, maybe have it require the sacrifice of a spell slot with an elemental type (earth, air, water, fire, acid, cold, lightning) spell in the slot or available in the slot (sorcs), and they gain "[elemental type] shield" equivalent to [level sacrificed] level for 1d4+[level sacrificed] rounds. that would preven 0 level spell (no "slots"), but if that chill touch isn't going to be useful today, 1d4 rounds of ice shield is still cool.
Just a small thing Jess -- Chill Touch is a negative energy spell, not Cold. Other than that a great idea IMO.
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Just a small thing Jess -- Chill Touch is a negative energy spell, not Cold. Other than that a great idea IMO.
Yeah, saw that, but change that to burning hands or shocking grasp and it's valid. :) For rules reasons, I'd probably require the element descriptor in the spell, but I could see trading in things like obscuring mist and chill touch for cold in a game I ran with these rules.
Jess -- sending updated version via email.
For enerhy shield, I was on the fence about 1d6 + CL to melee attackers, vs. 1d6 per spell level within 10 ft. I went with the former because it seemed to make a much more useful ability: greater damage output unless you sacrifice your highest-level spell, and much greater selectivity (as in, you don't damage your friends).
Please continue to nitpick! I crave constructive negative feedback!
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Just a small thing Jess -- Chill Touch is a negative energy spell, not Cold. Other than that a great idea IMO.
Unearthed Arcana lists Chill Touch as a 'Cold Domain' spell for Domain Wizards, and I'd be prone to wave my hands and say that the Cold Domain Wizard knows a version of Chill Touch that's an Evocation [Cold] spell and be done with it.
Similarly, I'd be pretty comfortable with an Abjuration version of Mage Armor that works exactly the same, but is Abjuration, not Conjuration. (Heck, it's a *force* spell, which means it's supposed to be Evocation, anyway...)