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I been preparing for my first Pathfinder game using the Crypt of the Everflame module with some relatively new players. On one particular encounter there's a requirement to calculate a creatures stealth check.
This particular stealth check had a lot of variables to consider and wanting to make sure I used the Pathfinder rules 100% without fudging it I started to research into how stealth and perception interact.
I'm putting together a small spreadsheet to help with the calculations but I'm left a little confused by the maths so wanted to run this scenario past you all to check I'm adjudicating it correctly...
According to the rules a creature is spotted on a successful DC of 0 increased by +1 per 10 ft distance (+2 in forests) first made at the maximum distance allowed by a given terrain. For this example we will go with a medium forest and a maximum spotting distance of 140 ft.
Medium forests have light undergrowth which provides a creature with concealment, allowing the use of the stealth skill and providing a +2 bonus.
The DC to spot a creature in the daytime in a forest at 140 ft. is 28.
If the creature is using stealth he adds his DC to this check.
Given a typical wolf with a stealth of 6, taking 10 provides the wolf with a DC 44 to notice him.
Now lets say its night time. Firstly the concealment increases to total concealment because of the darkness. The rules do not state if this provides a bonus to the creatures stealth check or simply makes the Perception check impossible. I'm leaning towards granting a +20 bonus on the creatures stealth check if its moving and a +40 if its stationary when in darkness as if the creature where invisible. As the wolf is advancing this brings the Perception DC to notice the wolf to 64!
Now the wolf advances on the parties campsite. this campsite is in a 25ft. wide clearing and provides illumination equal to 30ft (60ft dim) and moving stealthily the wolf covers 50ft (double move, hampered movement, taking a -5 to check) bringing it within 90ft. of the campfire.
The creature is now within dim light radius of creatures with lowlight vision meaning the wolf now has concealment from dim light and light undergrowth. according to the rules dim light only provides concealment (20% miss chance) but doesn't grant a bonus to stealth checks unlike light undergrowth (+2). However going by the perception tables I would be wise to consider dim light an Unfavorable condition adding a +2 to the DC of the perception check. The DC to detect the wolf is now 18 (distance) + 16 (stealth check) -5 (normal movement penalty) +2 (light undergrowth) +2 (unfavorable condition) = 33 vs creatures with lowlight vision.
Now it gets interesting. Undetected the wolf advances 50ft again bringing it within 40ft foot of the campfire. He now falls into the normal light category for the characters with lowlight vision but still has concealment from the light undergrowth. The DC to be spotted is now 8 (distance) + 16 (stealth check) -5 (normal movement penalty) +2 (light undergrowth) = 21 for characters with lowlight and 23 (+2 for unfavorable condition) for characters with normal vision due to the lack of good light.
Finally the creature moves to within 30 ft. of the campsite (the outer edge of the clearing) and hes no longer rushing movement so drops the -5 penalty. The DC to be spotted is now 6 (distance) + 16 (stealth check) (normal movement penalty) +2 (light undergrowth) = 24 for characters with lowlight and normal vision.
Does this look correct to you all?
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Yeah for the most part it looks good... but I would suggest that unless a creature is using stealth rolling a perception check might not even be neccessary, though it's quite easy to pass close to other creatures in a forest and not see them.
I also wouldn't dole out the bonuses for invisibility because of Darkness. The example wolf has Low Light Vision which means unless it has a light source it's only moving half speed unless it's making DC 10 Acrobatics checks each round.
--Vrock Candy
From a rules perspective it looks alright (although IANARL.) But as a hunter, I can tell you that is very unusual to see a creature at dusk before you hear it. So don't forget that although Perception now has sight and hearing (and smell) rolled into one skill, you've got to consider that rapid movement through a forest would add way more than 2 to the Perception roll.
If the leaves were dry I'd add +10, personally..it's almost impossible to move quietly in dry leaves. If it was misty wet, I'd add only +2 for the movement. Other things I'd just wing.
In general, I think they'd hear creatures sneaking up on them before they saw them...and even wildcats make noise when moving rapidly (as you describe.) Now, if a predator were truly sneaking quietly (and very slowly), well...better hope you smell them. (And by the way, 50ft in 6 seconds...please. Have you ever seen a predator actually stalk? That's way off. More like 5 ft in 6 seconds.)
It's situations like this where I think it's worthwhile to distinguish between noticing that something is out there and being able to pinpoint exactly where it is.
As an example, simply noticing that something's out there wouldn't suffer the penalties for concealment or darkness, but passing on that reduced DC wouldn't tell you anything beyond how far away it is.
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Thanks for the posts guys.
Its interesting, now that perception and stealth take into account all the available senses instead of just 1 or two as they did in 3.5, just how much emphasis there is on visual references over other forms of perception and also how easy it is to overlook them.
Going over the situations again (and the rules) light undergrowth actually penalizes stealth skills due to the obstructed ground cover yet would still provide concealment meaning that it would provide a +2 while you where stationary but a +0 while moving.
given the time of year being the beginning of autumn and the quote in the adventure of a leafless forest I'd also be inclined to add an additional Favorable Condition modifier (-2) to the perception DC to notice the crunching of leaves over the ambient noise of the forest.
Looks up to snuff RAW, though typically, I add a few levels of perception to make things a little easier/harder as needed.
For example, the +20 for invisibility you're using until it's actually in a lit area, once it's closer, that drops, then, when it's really beginning to close the distance, making it take additional penalties to stealth due to the sound being distinct enough to be able to notice it from random woodland noises, the wind, imagination, etc.
Then I have a precise figure for how close Mr. Wolf gets before being noticed. And this is more of a house rule than law, but something I've found helpful for stealth related rolls is to also give levels of success and failure. For example, they detect the wolf before visually being able to see the wolf. All I say is "You hear some rustling in the underbrush." Now the party, being good little paranoid people will almost assuredly prepare weapons, spells etc. But this does throw a bone to the rogue who botches their sneak roll. I generally give them a couple of rounds to hide, or have the guard shrug because the floors have always been creaky and he's aware of coworkers in here so whatever. Really, unless they botch a roll while tip toeing behind a guard with sap in hand, I try to stay away from the black and white of complete ninja or bungling oaf. Generally give the npcs the same treatment, but players are usually far more reactionary and twitchy by nature.
Holy necro, Batman!