The more I look at jscott991's numbers, the more I think they are a good start. I am more familiar with Greyhawk than any other setting, and Golarion seems to be more a spiritual successor of it than anything else. Rather than the original books, if you look at the Living Greyhawk Gazettteer that Erik Mona and SKR worked on, the above numbers seem to fit the "types" of nations. The oldest, most established nations there have populations in the 2-4 milliion range (Nyrond 2.6, Ahlissa 3.8, North Kingdom 2.6) and urban populations from their town listings of roughly 10%. "Breakaway" nations that have grown in importance tend to be less than 2 million (Furyondy 1.5) and the majority of independent nations or "border" kingdoms are roughly 100-800 thousand, with urban populations up to 40% of their total. I like the comment in their "population" descriptions that all numbers were estimates. :)
Overall, I don't think this topic is anything to get our knickers in a knot over. jscott's numbers seem to be in a reasonable range so far and may help others get a feel for relativity between nations. Paizo can give or withhold their public blessing as they see fit, but it probably will help them in coming to an idea of numbers internally simply to manage the setting in the future.
These numbers seem reasonable to me and it isn't as much of a canon issue as city placement would be: these are totals, not "How said totals are distributed" which could impede a game. Also there have been comparisons to FR made. One issue with FR is that it WASN'T a static start point: the novels kept advancing the timeline and over time population changes but at a single MOMENT in time the population DOESN'T. Which means giving a total popuilation for each nation in Golarion would simply be a snapshot and would adjust over time as the campaign dictates. It's kind of like Eberron this way: the campaign starts at one point and it is ultimately YOUR campaign and you can make changes as you see fit: a guide not a straitjacket and again it's a snapshot, not a video. There's also the issue of yes, magic exists but... 91% of the world is commoners and most of the population would have extremely limited access to 1st maybe 2nd level spellcasting - and how high a level do you have to be to take Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Magic Arms and Armour?
Climate, weather and terrain can also play a major role in population figures. To use some modern examples-Canada (about the same size as the US geographically) has 1/10th the US population or about the same population as the state of California. Meanwhile, the population of Tokyo (a single city) is about the same as Canada or California-the climate and terrain (as well as economics, culture and politics, it does have to be said) have lead to this particular situation. Also the UK has about twice Canada's population but it could fit in my home province of Ontario about 5x geographically. Finally to illustrate the point further, Toronto, Ontario is about the same latitude as northern Spain/southern France but the climate is markedly different. Heck London, England is about the same latitude as northern Newfoundland and I think there's a few Newfoundlanders on these boards so you can ask THEM about the weather there, especially in winter ::shudders::.
On population generally, what impact do dragons have on how many people any particlar country can support? For example Andoran is known to be home to one of the biggest meanest red dragons active described so far in the Golarion setting, Daralathyxl, a male great wyrm. (See Dragons revisited, page 50.)
Even on occasions when a dragon is not out hunting, actively living off the land, I imagine the simple knowledge that there is a dragon somewhere in an area is sufficient to keep all but the bravest or most foolhardy from attempting to farm or exploit other natural resources in the vicinity.
Why stop at dragons? What about derros coming up from below to kidnap people? What about undead that can make lots of spawn. What about resurrections? What about the Tarrasque? What about things like barghests and nabasus that come to this world to eat folks?
It's a complicated process, and one that can quickly turn into a bottomless hole if you're not careful...
I was expressing my support for the notion that there are good reasons why Andoran may not be as densely populated as medieval France. Evidently not in a sufficiently straight forward manner. :D
One other issue stemming off of this is that the forces of good and evil will need to be roughly balanced because otherwise, evil is simply going to steamroller over the forces of good. The evil will be around a while and some magical beasts, some monstrous humanoids, some aberrations, some undead, and MAYBE some evil dragons won't be overly interested in vassals but a significant number will be. Basically it seems to me heroes are relatively limited in supply and duration so you shouldn't be counting on them all the time but rather have an almost equally powerful good force holding them back for a long duration with the heroes countering specific situational inroads of evil that cut into the general front line of the forces of good.
Galt's population is too low.
I have amended it up to 750,000, which is where it should have been in the first place.
The final Avistan numbers follow, with a brief series of notes about the project at the end.
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Qadira
Final Population: 2.0 million
Setting Information: 230,000 in 3 cities
Methodology: How large is the Kelishite Empire? It must be enormous. In fact, this empire calls into question all of my population figures, because if Qadira has a population nearly equal to Taldor’s, then Avistan must be incredibly underpopulated compared to the eastern empires. This does not seem reasonable to me, but you can only work with the numbers provided.
Qadira and its parent state present a ton of problems for the setting (the description almost implies that players who use Garund and Avistan are setting their campaigns in a backwater and that Golarion’s real regions are to the east), but I’m going to sidestep all of those issues for now. I assume that Qadira has other settlements than those listed, but that the deserts of the realm keep most of that population either nomadic or clustered near the cities. Also, we are told in the write-up that if Taldor concentrated on Qadira, it was able to beat it (it just couldn’t fight a two-front war) and that Qadira is fearful of Taldor seeking revenge, but eager to try its hand in a war with its neighbor. That suggests a relative balance that might slightly favor Taldor. In the end, I just didn’t want this province-masquerading-as-a-nation to have a population greater than one of Avistan’s most powerful empires.
Kyonin
Final Population: 755,000
Setting Information: 66,000 in 2 cities
Methodology: Kyonin is the only significant elven kingdom in Avistan or Garund. It has one major city, Iadara, and a minor city used to trade with the outside world. Elves are not traditionally presented as major urban dwellers, but they usually are tied very closely to their forest homes. If we focus on Iadara, and assume an urban percentage under 10%, that will probably give the elves a reasonable population. As the only significant elven empire, I also adjusted the population up slightly.
One major assumption I’ve made in producing this number, which might seem low, is that elves in Golarion are much more spread-out in non-elven kingdoms than elves in Faerun, who are mostly concentrated in Evermeet. That is why the population of Kyonin is not as high as Evermeet. Evermeet also has more cities than Kyonin.
The River Kingdoms
Final Population: 1.3 million
Setting Information: 60,000 in 5 cities
Methodology: There can be no methodology for something like the River Kingdoms. There are other sources outside the setting book that reveal more detail than I have access to, so the River Kingdom population is set using its neighbors as a baseline and then adjusted down slightly because of the rough nature of the region. It is likely to be more urbanized than usual, since the countryside is so dangerous. The lack of a central political entity would also depress the population, since markets and food distribution would suffer. The region is very large, though, so the population can’t really be underestimated and there must be enough people or resources here to justify some attempts to pacify the region by older empires. As I said, though, this is mostly based on just touch and feel. The River Kingdoms, in my mind, are probably significantly more populated than Brevoy, Galt, or Razmiran, and probably roughly equal to Numeria and Ustalav.
Brevoy
Final Population: 780,000
Setting Information: 71,000 in 4 cities
Methodology: Brevoy is the decaying union of two smaller nations, one of which suffered heavily when it was conquered. Like many northern states, I am assuming this one has a fairly high urban percentage because of the increasing dangers of living in the countryside. I’m also assuming that there are more cities in the region than we are shown.
Therefore, Brevoy gets a 50% urban adjustment and a 15% urban percentage. I then adjusted the population up slightly. Brevoy is less populous than its River Kingdoms neighbor, but not as small as nations like Nidal and Isger. Brevoy was a key piece in the puzzle of whether Galt was under-populated (and originally, it was).
Razmiran
Final Population: 380,000
Setting Information: 26,000 in 2 cities
Methodology: To me, it seemed that Razmiran was merely a long-lived and somewhat stable River Kingdom led by a unique figure, the false god Razmir. I don’t imagine it being much more populous than a province in a larger nation and its sparse city listing in the setting book seems to confirm this. On the other hand, it does need enough people to credibly support the export of missionaries, so it can’t be as small as Isger.
In the end, granting it a 50% urban adjustment and using the default urban percentage produces a population right around where I wanted to see it.
Numeria
Final Population: 1.3 million
Setting Information: 100,000 in 4 cities
Methodology: Numeria is a tenuously unified nation under the Black Sovereign. There are hints in the book that Numeria has the potential to be a true power in the region, if it were properly unified and led. I could see Numeria being larger than Ustalav, but probably not Varisia or Mendev. Mendev needs sufficient population to credibly support an army to hold back the Worldwound and Varisia is a very large area.
Like other nations in this region, I think Numeria might be more urbanized than a more civilized nation because of the more dangerous countryside. However, I did not overdo this adjustment. Giving Numeria a 33% urban adjustment and then an urban percentage slightly above average produces a population slightly over 1 million. I adjusted that upward to be larger than Ustalav.
Ustalav
Final Population: 1.2 million
Setting Information: 47,000 in 5 cities; 15 shown on detailed map
Methodology: For me, there are three “great” nations in the north, just as there are in the south. The northern Avistan nations, however, are not nearly as populous or unified. Varisia, Mendev, and Ustalav stuck out in the setting book as probably the largest of the remaining nations, unless the River Kingdoms should be more populous (which is possible; in the end Ustalav ended up being behind both the Kingdoms and Numeria). Varisia is located in the ashes of an ancient empire. Mendev is a deliberate creation of crusaders, and has a huge urban population, and Ustalav has an enormous number of cities not listed with their population.
Ustalav has lost a number of provinces over the years and is not entirely stable, but its structure suggests to me that it is relatively populous. Assuming the 10 cities without population figures average 5,000 and the urban percentage is 10%, yields a population of just under a million. I adjusted that up slightly, making Ustalav slightly less populous than the River Kingdoms and Numeria.
Mendev
Final Population: 900,000
Setting Information: 117,000 in 3 cities; 1 city lost to the Worldwound
Methodology: Mendev presents a challenge. It has a huge urban population in its three listed cities and even that population is depressed by the loss of one its major cities to the Worldwound. Mendev seems like it is a major power in this region, but its power is probably largely spent on its crusade against the neighboring fiends. The country is also small.
All of that leads me to conclude that with Mendev, what we see might be what we get. It probably has a high enough population to support a disproportionately large army, but that army’s manpower is drawn from other lands and immigrating crusaders, not the native population. I assumed a 20% urban population, with the idea that even more than that number probably huddle very close to the various fortresses that dot the landscape. In the end, Mendev is probably not as populous as it appears at first blush, but, like Druma, it is not a kingdom whose measure can remotely be taken by simply looking at the number of citizens.
Varisia
Final Population: 2.3 million
Setting Information: 47,000 in 5 cities; 15 shown on detailed map
Methodology: Varisia is given very little detailed population information in the setting book. However, there are several factors that are important to consider when estimating its “citizenry”:
1. It is the site of the old Thassilonian Empire, which was a major power during its heyday.
2. Varisia’s population might have grown much faster if it had remained united, but over time it is not likely that it declined after collapsing from imperial status.
3. It is not unified, which would probably incline it towards a higher urban population percentage since people would remain close to cities and fortresses for protection.
4. It has high elven and orcish populations that are not counted in my figure since I have no numbers to start with. I would assume that something like 200,000 elves live in the forest around Celwynvian, containing the drow and trying to retake the city, but the orcs in the east could be almost any credible number.
Varisia is dominated by Korvosa in the south and Magnimar in the west. Each of these city-states controls a number of smaller settlements. This fact helps offset the complete lack of a central government, but doesn’t dispel it. In the end, I set Varisia’s population to be something close to Andoran and Taldor, mostly to show that if the region was unified as an empire, it would be a force to reckon with.
Lastwall
Final Population: 330,000
Setting Information: 23,000 in 3 cities
Methodology: Lastwall is another crusader nation, this one built to contain Gallowspire. It is built on the remains of former counties of Ustalav, but its population is augmented by an influx of crusaders. However, it is a small nation with the Fangwood forest dominating its land area. My assumption is that it is not that much more densely populated than Isger, but that, like Mendev, it has a military out of proportion with its population because of the small trickle of crusaders that still come to assist holding back the Whispering Tyrant. A 50% urban adjustment, combined with something close to the default urban percentage produces a reasonable population greater than Nirmathas, but much lower than Ustalav.
Lands of the Linnorm Kings
Final Population: 875,000
Setting Information: 127,000 in 5 cities
Methodology: The final three nations bring to mind Scandinavia and bitter cold, though only Irrisen is really described as being particularly frigid. The Linnorm kings, though, are hard to peg. They have a very large urban population listed in the book, and are very Viking-like. Are we to assume that this land is perhaps more civilized and populous than you might think just looking at its location? Perhaps, or perhaps we can assume that most inhabitants of this region simply live close to cities for protection from either the environment or other threats.
Assuming an urban percentage of about 30%, and granting an adjustment of 50%, gives a population of 635,000. That seems too low, so I adjusted it up significantly.
Irrisen
Final Population: 240,000
Setting Information: 41,000 in 3 cities
Methodology: The question I had while reading Irrisen’s entry was who would still live in this region after the Witch Queen conquered it? There is nothing attractive about the kingdom from the description, but it clearly still has people since thousands are listed in the urban populations. So we must set aside skepticism and simply assume that Irrisen has a credible population, none of whom ever really leave the nation, sustaining its aura of complete mystery.
Irrisen probably does not have many other cities than those listed in the book, and the population was largely just the product of my own assumptions. I can’t imagine this area is very heavily populated.
Realm of the Mammoth Lords
Final Population: 520,000
Setting Information: 24,000 in 3 cities
Methodology: The Mammoth Lords’ city information probably tells us next to nothing about the total population of the kingdom. Like Belkzen, which I haven’t done yet, I think you simply must decide how populated this region is using the numbers of its neighbors and common sense. I decided that about 5% of people lived in the settlements listed and that 500,000 was about right, given the Worldwound’s encroachment on one side, and Irrisen’s on the other.
Notes
This concludes everything I've done work on. I have not done anything with Garund, except reading the descriptions. I will do Garund, but finishing Avistan raises a number of issues that should probably be resolved.
1. The Keleshite Empire is a major problem, unless it is assumed that either Qadira is essentially a big city, a desert, and a Keleshite army (making its population low); or the Keleshite Empire, alone, dwarfs the entire population of Avistan. Perhaps the latter is intended. Certainly there are suggestions of this fact. The urban populations in Avistan, the urban population of Qadira, and the notion that Qadira is merely a frontier satrapy for this enormous empire all point toward the fact that Kelesh and the east are the demographic center of Golarion.
2. If you feel the populations are too low, then you can adjust them up by anywhere from 50% to 100% and still be somewhat reasonable. However, doing this will force you to assume that lots of cities that are not shown anywhere dot the countryside of Avistan. Either that or Avistan has a huge rural population. In my mind, the figures I've shown above are about as high as the population figures in the setting book will support, but this is just my opinion and even I like the idea of high, Europe-level populations in a fantasy setting since that gives you bigger armies and a larger economy of scale to play with.
3. It bugs me that the dwarves are missing. There are 5,600 dwarves in Highhelm, but no other dwarven kingdom gets a major mention. So while I think that there are probably about 1 million elves represented in the political entities of Kyonin and Celwynvian, there is nothing comparable for the dwarves at all. We need to come up with some way to measure the dwarven presence in the Five Kings Mountains. There have to be hundreds of thousands dwarves somewhere in this world, and it only makes sense they would have at least one large kingdom. I'm bothered significantly less about the lack of a halfing and gnome homeland.
I welcome all comments and criticisms. I feel I did a much poorer job on northern Avistan than southern, but I hope that everything at least feels close to reasonable.
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As James points out, the risk of Civilization being in conflict with All powerful monsters would have a devastating sway on a setting if considered to any level of accuracy and logic.
Considering the currently insane population spread in Military assets, Agricultural resources, and Support infrastructure I would suggest that you simply check your logic at the door.
In a monster prone world, Empires that want to feed huge cities would need to defend their farmers from monsters with the steel and blood of soldiers at somewhere around ten thousand gp worth of millitary assets per Agricultural acre and 1/10th that per acre of forest exploited for firewood.
That would imply a Platoon patroling the woods where woodsmen chop down trees, and big stone walls about the outer perimiter of Farm land manned with troops.
If you want to get into it try:
- 19&1/2 acre tennant farm producing 6500lb wheat for 17 others.
- 1700 acres of light forest sustainably harvested for firewood for 34 others.
- 60 acre Estate supporting a Light Horseman.
For the 5,600 Dwarves of HighHelm, that amounts to 2,800 acres of forest for firewood, and 6,424 acres of tennat farms. 14.5 square miles of agricultural support land (Wheat and Firewood).
With 2/17 of the states population working in Agriculture support outside the city. If our Troops are 10% of City Population then 5600 dwarves equals 560 soldiers (280 on active duty) That amounts to about 140 active soldiers in the city. 10 soldiers per square mile outside the city wall Guarding Tennant Farmers and 40 barely supporting logging operations.
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Qadira and its parent state present a ton of problems for the setting (the description almost implies that players who use Garund and Avistan are setting their campaigns in a backwater and that Golarion’s real regions are to the east),
That would be an exciting change of pace from a lot of traditional fantasy RPG settings. :)
However, doing this will force you to assume that lots of cities that are not shown anywhere dot the countryside of Avistan. Either that or Avistan has a huge rural population.
I don't have any problem whatsoever with a pre-industrial society having a huge rural population, nor do I have a problem with lots of small cities. However, the more I look, the more it seems Avistan really is underpopulated.
Just for comparison purposes, the entirety of Europe in 1500 (a not unreasonable year to apply to Avistan as a whole) had 154 cities with at least 10,000 inhabitants, and 225 cities with under 10,000 inhabitants. This gave Europe, as a whole, a 7.4% urbanization rate in 1500. Given Barbarian kingdoms, non-human realms with non-human demographics and population patterns (I would think Kiyonin and Belzken might have as low as a 3% or less Urbanization, while Dwarven kingdoms might be as high as 25%!), and so forth, 10% urbanization overall might be high or low, depending on how much unexplored wilderness you want or how much more advanced over renaissance Europe you want it to be.
Europe 1500 has a total of 80 million people (coming off a couple of centuries of plague pandemics), and your totals give the entirety of Avistan at... 23.25 million, a THIRD of Europe. But Avistan also has an area of (and this could be wildly inaccurate, I'm guesstimating from an undersized web image at this point) 2.4 million sq. mi and Europe is a little under four million sq. miles. So, a third of the people in just over half of the area... Not as underpopulated as my initial impressions, but still pretty frontiersy.
Many people, including James Jacobs, felt that 10% (the default DnD assumption) was too low for Avistan. I fudged it and used something lower than 10% over all to get the populations I could get.
My goal was always to err on the high side.
If you want an urbanization rate closer to 5% to 7%, then simply adjust the population up 33% to 50%, keeping the relative balance the same.
Another thing to keep in mind is that every nation in a fantasy setting supports sentient monstrous populations of some amount.
That is the easiest way to explain lower densities than historical Europe, where tribes of orcs, goblins, kobolds, and gnolls were less common.
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Another thing to keep in mind is that every nation in a fantasy setting supports sentient monstrous populations of some amount.
Which returns to my question, so many posts back, about whether that was 3 million HUMAN Chelish, or 3 million Chelish period. 3 million Chelish period made me scratch my head, 3 million HUMAN Chelish made me shrug and go, "Sure. We don't get a good census on gnomes and orcs and mermelants and jabberwocks"
Qadira and its parent state present a ton of problems for the setting (the description almost implies that players who use Garund and Avistan are setting their campaigns in a backwater and that Golarion’s real regions are to the east)
I don't see any problems. I don't see the backwater part, either.
Just because Kelesh is so big doesn't mean the other nations aren't "real regions".
Absalon, for example, is so awesome everybody would want to annex it - and nobody succeeded.
Plenty of other nations with plenty of civilization.
Also, we are told in the write-up that if Taldor concentrated on Qadira, it was able to beat it (it just couldn’t fight a two-front war) and that Qadira is fearful of Taldor seeking revenge, but eager to try its hand in a war with its neighbor. That suggests a relative balance that might slightly favor Taldor.
From the way I've read it, Quadira would eat Taldor if they were let off the leash. It might have been different in the past, but Taldor's time is long gone.
In the end, I just didn’t want this province-masquerading-as-a-nation to have a population greater than one of Avistan’s most powerful empires.
And that's why your numbers suck. You let personal opinion get in the way. :P
Taldor might have been one of the most powerful empires in the whole inner sea region. That was long ago. Taldor's time has been over ever since Cheliax and Quadira kicked their arse.
VarisiaFinal Population: 2.3 million
No way. Varisia is little more than its city states, which are bulwarks of civilisation. Beyond that, you have some settlements, some towns, and that's it.
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If Varisia is too high, it's too high. I explained my reasoning in great detail.
And now I must ask at what point I offended you so drastically that you go out of your way to needle statements out of context?
Yes, I did say that it was my opinion that Taldor was more populous than Qadira.
But I explained where both numbers came from in great detail. And even if you put Taldor lower in the range that I provided and Qadira higher, giving Qadira the greater population, does make the other interpretation "suck'?
You've been doing this the whole thread. I don't get it.
Which returns to my question, so many posts back, about whether that was 3 million HUMAN Chelish, or 3 million Chelish period. 3 million Chelish period made me scratch my head, 3 million HUMAN Chelish made me shrug and go, "Sure. We don't get a good census on gnomes and orcs and mermelants and jabberwocks"
Another thing to keep in mind is that every nation in a fantasy setting supports sentient monstrous populations of some amount.
I posted on this several times.
The number I am providing is the "citizenry" of a nation; those that are subject to the crown, or whatever.
It includes demihuman populations in some cases (Cheliax's gnomes), but very rarely.
None of these numbers include orcs, dwarves, goblinoids, fey, etc. There is no where to start in order to produce those numbers, so it's best to just leave them amorphous.
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At first I thought 'Meh, what do I need population numbers for? I have general information in that area at that should be enough'. However, I am finding the information extrapolated from the populations very interesting and can really see this adding to the overall 'feel' of the world. Making it a more dynamic place instead of a more static one. So when I throw a marauding orc army into the mix I can get a real feel for it's impact.
A question regarding Varisia (spoilers from first 3 adventure paths):
How do you think the recent events from the three adventure paths have effected the population? The marauding stone giant army probably had some minor impact on the local towns and countryside around Sandpoint and Magnimar as well as the sin harvesting done by lamias and others? The riots, plague, and loss to refugees in Korvosa? The comet strike near Riddleport and the frontal assault by the elves on Celwynvian?
The most dramatic population impacts are in and around Korvosa from CotCT but I can see some impact from the other events also. I also understand that some of this is effected (minimally) by player actions but I am talking most likely scenario here.
Director of Brand Strategy
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A question regarding Varisia (spoilers from first 3 adventure paths): ** spoiler omitted **
Just because an AP might show us these events don't mean that they aren't happening all over the world all the time. Disasters and wars are part of what leads to stability in a population. So while players in adventures might witness horrible events that you'd assume would negatively affect a population, the population would actually be much higher than previously listed were these events not occurring. With magical healing, a city needs plagues and attacks and floods and fires and the rest just to keep from overcrowding.
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A question regarding Varisia (spoilers from first 3 adventure paths): ** spoiler omitted **Just because an AP might show us these events don't mean that they aren't happening all over the world all the time. Disasters and wars are part of what leads to stability in a population. So while players in adventures might witness horrible events that you'd assume would negatively affect a population, the population would actually be much higher than previously listed were these events not occurring. With magical healing, a city needs plagues and attacks and floods and fires and the rest just to keep from overcrowding.
I thought of this (and agree with you for the less significant or easily recovered from) but some of these events (especially the Korvosan ones) seem fairly drastic and not common at all. Basically, hit with major disasters in this case. Remember that Korvosa's population used to be higher until half of them ran off to Magnimar. Traitors! Korvosa still hasn't recovered from that debacle which had a very definite impact on it's current population. I just finished running the second chapter to CotCT and I can tell you that as written it has killed off thousands, dropping the cities population significantly. While a few thousand people would not normally be that significant for a country but for a city-state of 18,486 in the urban area it's a huge number. I am imagining that it will have lost quite a few people as refugees fleeing the atrocities also. Some going to rural areas, some fleeing to other cities entirely. Just curious to see what other peoples takes are on the longer term ramifications of this. Right now as I see it I will be reducing Korvosa from a large city to a small city for some time to come.
That's just Kae's style. All comments from the jester should be taken with a block of salt.
And now I must ask at what point I offended you so drastically that you go out of your way to needle statements out of context?
I must ask you at what point did I offend you period?
I see things I don't think are right, I reply to them.
I take care not to quote a whole two-million-post when I'm only referring to a single statement because I think it increases readability, and not doing so is just lazy.
I also joke a bit. Well, a lot. Often, maybe always, that is marked by signs like ":P" which represent faces. I know, they're on the side, but the ASCII table only gets you so far. :P
And yes, that :P means that again, you should take this tongue-in-cheek.
None of these numbers include orcs, dwarves, goblinoids, fey, etc. There is no where to start in order to produce those numbers, so it's best to just leave them amorphous.
The city populations given include major races - usually the PHB races, but in some cases, other races like orcs or tieflings are included as well.
The city populations given include major races - usually the PHB races, but in some cases, other races like orcs or tieflings are included as well.
None of these numbers include orcs, dwarves, goblinoids, fey, etc. There is no where to start in order to produce those numbers, so it's best to just leave them amorphous.
Yes, but those live in cities and are subject to the crown or whatever's laws.
The tribes that roam the countryside and forests or the dwarves that live in the mountains are impossible to measure.
But they would provide a credible reason why population density in Golarion is less than medieval Europe.
The tribes that roam the countryside and forests or the dwarves that live in the mountains are impossible to measure.
What about the roaming tribes of humans?
Reading the Taldor: Echoes of Glory book confirms that Taldor's population is too low.
It also shows just how much urban population can be left off the setting information.
Taldor's population will need to be increased by 400,000 - 500,000 people (to approximately 2.8 million).
There is also a reference to the Talduran army having something like 12 legions at Zimar. If a legion is 6,000 men, that is 72,000 men in one, albeit critical, location.
It is probably unreasonable to imagine more than 5% of a nation's population being under arms, so that would make the maximum size of Taldor's army about 140,000 men.
If people think that is too low, then Avistan will need a population adjustment, probably of about 50%.
I misspoke above. It is actually probably unreasonable to imagine much more than 1-2% of a nation's population in the army.
So a nation with a population of about 3.5 million would have an army of about 70,000 men.
Can you mobilise a higher per centage of the population in times of need given that women who are caster capable can fry your national enemies with magic or work spells to protect your own forces just as handily as men?
For that matter elderly spell-casters may well be your best ones available since upto a point of complete incapacity the infirmities of physical deterioration of speed, strength, and stamina with age would matter less than the additional experiences they have accumulated over a lifetime (or more) of learning how to wield magical power.
It is unlikely that any nation features enough spellcasters of any kind to significantly affect the number of people mobilized. Casters are a major part of any fantasy fighting force, but they aren't a numerous part, so they are unlikely to shift the mobilized percentage of a population from 2% to 3%, for example.
The Taldor book has provided the first case of directly conflicting evidence.
The Taldor army hinted at in the book cannot be supported by the Taldor population that is implied by Taldor's cities.
So the question is whether the population is under-represented by cities or whether the army is overstated?
I'd prefer to err on the side of a high population, but that would require adjustments to most nations in Avistan, something I'm also not adverse to.
It is unlikely that any nation features enough spellcasters of any kind to significantly affect the number of people mobilized. Casters are a major part of any fantasy fighting force, but they aren't a numerous part, so they are unlikely to shift the mobilized percentage of a population from 2% to 3%, for example.
The number of magic users mobilized as a % of population may not be significant but a nation that can mobilize 10% of it's fighting force as spell casters is going to have a big edge over the nation that can only field 2%. It could be impressive to see a hundred men all cast magic missile at the same target or having a cleric in every squad could make a big difference with bless and channel positive energy.
Heck a cleric in every squad with a wand of cure light wounds makes a huge difference:
1. You can effectively triple your fighting strength due to wounds not being as deadly.
2. Troops know they got a better chance of surviving, great for morale.
3. injured troops can be back in the battle almost immediately.
If the clerics actually cast bless, or such they have an even bigger effect, considering that would be a 100% boost to most troops to hit roll.
About the only thing better would be having a cleric and a bard in every squad.
Updated Taldor
The Empire of Taldor
Updated Population: 2.8 million
Setting Information: 200,000 urban population in 9 cities
Methodology: Taldor presents problems, but the Echoes of Glory supplement makes it clear my previous estimate is on the low end. Therefore, based on the new urban population, the population has been adjusted up.
This still leaves the problem of the Talduran army, which is hinted at being of a size beyond this population to support.
This leaves either the option of assuming something like a 5% mobilization figure or increasing all Avistan populations.
increasing all Avistan populations.I've never been one to hesitate saying, "I told ya so."
I always said you might be right. :)
When starting, though, it seemed best to hew closely to the numbers Paizo established (the city populations) and go from there.
I did that, and based on your comments, other sources, and my own thoughts now that I'm done, I think the populations should be higher.
There is also the possibility that the Taldoran legions aren't actually 6,000 strong. The setting info would suggest the distinct possibility that the Taldoran army is understaffed, potentially greatly so; if the legions are only that size on paper, then the army size itself collapses noticably.
This is certainly possible. Taldor could have many legions with histories dating back to its grander empire and these legions would be under-staffed because the imperial heartland does not have the population to support them.
Still, a Taldor army of only about 56,000 men (2% of 2.8 million) might be too small.
Though I will say that this an army about twice the strength of the Byzantine Empire's force that existed during the First Crusade.
Taldor reminds me somewhat of the Byzantines.
Using the 2% metric for my Cheliax would give an army of 68,000 (2% of 3.4 million).
These army sizes strike me as a touch small for Romanesque forces, but also larger than most medieval armies (Henry's army at Agincourt was only 6,000 men, for example). So it depends on what flavor era we are using for inspiration.
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I'd like to point out that the Companions may be pro-nation propaganda. As in, written from Taldor's prospective, they want the other nations to think they have that many soldiers. I can think of other publishers that approached their fluff and background story as propaganda, creating mystery and never being able to iron out exact numbers.
Just a thought. I do love your work though. It's saving me so much time.
I'd like to point out that the Companions may be pro-nation propaganda.
The Taldor companion paints the nation in a pretty bad light, and you think it's propaganda?
Could be right.
If you want to say the Taldor companion is over-stating the army, it's probably more reasonable to assume the legions are not a full 6,000 man force.
It does not read like Taldor propaganda.
I'm kind of stalled on what to do at this point. I'm tempted to leave the numbers as is and be satisfied with national armies in the 50,000 to 70,000 range for the "great powers" of Avistan.
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Creative Director
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The companions are not written "in character." They're not propaganda, or at least, they shouldn't be. They need to present the details of what they cover in an accurate manner, not only so players have the correct information, but so that GMs who want to set adventures there or freelancers who work for us and need to draw info from that location get accurate data.
That is almost certainly true, Charles.
On the other hand, if Taldor went to war with Qadira, one would expect that they would mobilize more of their population for local defense, freeing up "regular" army forces for campaigning.
Still, it's another factor to consider when deciding if the 50,000 man army is too small, requiring a population shift up.
The companions are not written "in character." They're not propaganda, or at least, they shouldn't be. They need to present the details of what they cover in an accurate manner, not only so players have the correct information, but so that GMs who want to set adventures there or freelancers who work for us and need to draw info from that location get accurate data.
Well, reading the Cheliax companion, I did get the "propaganda" vibe on some occasions.
For example, it just goes and says that Hell does serve Cheliax rather than the other way around, something I still think is not that clear.
jscott991:
Apologies to distract you from what I imagine to be feverish comparisons between Osirion and ancient Egypt whilst wondering if the River Sphinx floods on an annual basis like the Nile, but would not Hermea count as being an extension of Avistan? (True the population is in the low thousands, but still I was slightly surprised not to see it listed along with the other Avistan nations, given it's location in the Arcadian Ocean.)
I did not count Hermea as part of Avistan.
I haven't done much more with Garund. I could present all of Garund's population using the same methodology I used with Avistan, producing the numbers listed in the thread. But I was hoping to "settle" the issue of Avistan's population before moving on.
I was considering sticking with my current numbers and defining a Taldor legion as 1,000 men (a battalion). Everything would then pretty much fall into place.
Hmm. I thought much of Azlant was underwater ever since Earthfall, or is there a serious surviving landmass still (maybe as an island chain)?
I was wondering about this myself. The only surviving landmass I know of is Mordant Spire, and the wiki doesn't indicate how large that island is.
Also, what Azant remnant am I thinking of as being ~1000 miles west of Avistan, since Mordant Spire is "on the far western edge of Varisia."
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Creative Director
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Hermea is indeed part of Avistan. It's certainly not part of Azlant, since that continent's at least an Atlantic Ocean's distance away from the west edge of the map of the Inner Sea region.Hmm. I thought much of Azlant was underwater ever since Earthfall, or is there a serious surviving landmass still (maybe as an island chain)?
No map of Azlant exists yet, but there ARE a number of islands protruding from the water where Azlant once stood. No idea yet of how many. We'll find out some day in the distant future, I suspect.
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Creative Director
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Hmm. I thought much of Azlant was underwater ever since Earthfall, or is there a serious surviving landmass still (maybe as an island chain)?
I was wondering about this myself. The only surviving landmass I know of is Mordant Spire, and the wiki doesn't indicate how large that island is.
Also, what Azant remnant am I thinking of as being ~1000 miles west of Avistan, since Mordant Spire is "on the far western edge of Varisia."
The Mordant Spire isn't actually a part of Azlant. It's part of Avistan, but is the closest point on Avistan to Azlant.
The Mordant Spire isn't actually a part of Azlant. It's part of Avistan, but is the closest point on Avistan to Azlant.
You can see why this Wiki entry on Azlant would lead to confusion:
"The island of Mordant Spire, on the far western edge of Varisia, remains as one of the few remnants of this once great continent."
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Creative Director
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The Mordant Spire isn't actually a part of Azlant. It's part of Avistan, but is the closest point on Avistan to Azlant.You can see why this Wiki entry on Azlant would lead to confusion:
"The island of Mordant Spire, on the far western edge of Varisia, remains as one of the few remnants of this once great continent."
I can indeed.
If we've mentioned in print that the Mordant Spire was actually once part of Azlant, I'm relatively certain that's an error... likely because we probably wrote that before we had a map of the Inner Sea region to reference.