The problem I had at a session last night was a group of players with minimal knowledge of the Pathfinder(or any other rules) coming up with an attack plan that was more cinematic than rules-based. As a result, I wasn't sure whether it could be done and had no idea how to simulate it.
The group knew that a trapdoor in a warehouse opened to a dungeon with four monsters guarding the entrance. The room with the monsters below had two sealed doors and the monsters had no natural ability to open doors. Their plan was to load up on flammable liquids and alchemists' fire, flood the room with oil, attack with the alchemists' fire and shut the trap door. Basically, torch the monsters and let them burn to death while they waited.
My problem is that I couldn't find any price for a barrel of oil or anything like it, nor could I find a rule mechanic that worked for what they intended to do. In the end, all they ended up doing was lobbing the alchemist fire at the monsters, which had the disappointing effect of 1d6 for two rounds.
Also a problem for them was the time crunch. Once they initiated combat, they couldn't do nearly as much before closing the door as they wanted. One standard action, one move action. It all turned out to be moot with the monsters winning initiative and having a climb speed, but I would like some thoughts and opinions on how to accomplish what they wanted mechanically, as it was a clever idea...just a little too clever for me to do on the fly.
Upon opening the trap, they should have had a surprise round in which to act before the monsters could roll initiative.
Oil costs a silver piece per pint - so flooding the room with it would likely be quite expensive.
Upon opening the trap, they should have had a surprise round in which to act before the monsters could roll initiative.
Oil costs a silver piece per pint - so flooding the room with it would likely be quite expensive.
I sort of figured that it would be expensive, which was why they ended up skipping the oil. As for the surprise round, they weren't particularly stealthy and set off a Burning Hands trap while opening the trapdoor.
set off a Burning Hands trap
That would likely have ruined the oil plan, too.
Upon opening the trap, they should have had a surprise round in which to act before the monsters could roll initiative.
Oil costs a silver piece per pint - so flooding the room with it would likely be quite expensive.
It would depend on how large the room was. As I work for a grocery store... I can tell you a gallon of oil spreads across a flat floor quite readily. I'd say a single barrel would work in most cases.
1 pint = 1 silver
10 pints = 1 gold
If the players were buying in "bulk" they could most likely get a slight discount as well... say 10%.
When players throw a curve-ball like that at me which I don't think I can improv my way past, I often call end-session, then start up the next session with a notebook page full of rules notes (either researched or invented) for what they want to do.
That's not to say that what you did was wrong, mind; keeping the game moving is important too. However, I've found that right-before-something-cool-happens makes a fine stopping point for a session (or even just a snack break) and leaves the players excited to start playing again.
To answer your question, a pint of oil is 1 sp (equipment chapter). A 42-gallon barrel would thus be 42 x 4 pints, costing 176 sp (or around 18 gp). I'd knock a few gp off of that for buying in bulk. :)
(as another rule of thumb: non-magical, non-masterwork stuff is generally dirt-cheap for PCs. It's no big deal to just say "you buy it" and then look up the price later).
If a character were doused in oil I would use the generic rules for "really hot places" like forest fires or volcanic pits (1d6 per round for breathing the air- no save- plus the risk of catching on fire for another 1d6/round), except that they automatically catch on fire. In other words, 2d6 per round.
I agree with everything Hydro said.
You're right, was thinking quart.
On second thought, I would say that a character who is doused with oil then lit up should take 2d6 per round (that's like being super-on-fire), plus the 1d6 per round if the floor under them is on fire too.
If you aren't covered in oil but the floor under you is, then yea, standard "extreme heat" applies. 1d6 per round, with a save each round to avoid catching fire (which would be another 1d6/round).
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Another way to think of the actions is to have them ready actions. Tom, Bob ready to drop the oil in when the door opens, Ray readies to drop the torch in after the oil goes in and Matt readies to close the door when the torch drops in. John opens the door on his action, triggering Tom and Bob in goes the oil, that triggers Ray and the torch flies in after which triggers the closing of the door by Matt. Boom. Now, if they had only remembered to light the torch ;)
As for the effect? If you can invision the tactic working then it works. They don't need to know how the mechanics work, so in essence you don't. If you think its enough to kill the creatures out right then it is, if not, mark off some damage.
Just be prepared, the next time they will come armed with twinkies...
You're right, was thinking quart.
On second thought, I would say that a character who is doused with oil then lit up should take 2d6 per round (that's like being super-on-fire), plus the 1d6 per round if the floor under them is on fire too.
If you aren't covered in oil but the floor under you is, then yea, standard "extreme heat" applies. 1d6 per round, with a save each round to avoid catching fire (which would be another 1d6/round).
So, assuming they got off the first part of their plan and the monsters were burning, would they have taken some of this damage if the monsters climbed out and started grappling them, horror-movie style? I'm figuring the success of the plan would hinge on how long it would take to execute it. If they lost the element of surprise(weren't sneaky enough, were expected, or just got flamed by the trapped trapdoor), could one player alone execute the plan if he won initiative? Is one round long enough?
So, assuming they got off the first part of their plan and the monsters were burning, would they have taken some of this damage if the monsters climbed out and started grappling them, horror-movie style? I'm figuring the success of the plan would hinge on how long it would take to execute it. If they lost the element of surprise(weren't sneaky enough, were expected, or just got flamed by the trapped trapdoor), could one player alone execute the plan if he won initiative? Is one round long enough?You're right, was thinking quart.
On second thought, I would say that a character who is doused with oil then lit up should take 2d6 per round (that's like being super-on-fire), plus the 1d6 per round if the floor under them is on fire too.
If you aren't covered in oil but the floor under you is, then yea, standard "extreme heat" applies. 1d6 per round, with a save each round to avoid catching fire (which would be another 1d6/round).
When you say Monsters, what, exactly, are you talking about. Flaming Giant Rats are a different thing than flaming basilisk or flaming blink dog. (Though I'm pretty sure Flaming Flumph is a Cheliax delicacy). Grappling rats are nasty, but a grappling basilisk is much worse. Maybe 1/2 damage to the grappl-y.
As for what can you do, a round is 6 seconds (which is either a lot of time or a short time, depending.) Providing he was prepared witha lit torch and a breakable container, 6 seconds is enough time to open, throw, throw, and slam... but just barely/ I'm thinking an initiative and DEX check vs 12 or 15 might be in order...
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So, assuming they got off the first part of their plan and the monsters were burning, would they have taken some of this damage if the monsters climbed out and started grappling them, horror-movie style? I'm figuring the success of the plan would hinge on how long it would take to execute it. If they lost the element of surprise(weren't sneaky enough, were expected, or just got flamed by the trapped trapdoor), could one player alone execute the plan if he won initiative? Is one round long enough?
Unless the monsters were aware of them previous to the door opening, (ie. weren't sneaky enough or were expected, but not the trap) I'd say the player characters should get a surprise round.
A single player by himself can open the trap door (standard converted to a move action) and drop an item (free action), say a lit torch or better yet Alchemist's Fire. If he wins initiative, he could push in the barrel previously put next to the trapdoor (standard action), then close the trapdoor (move action), and finally walk onto the trapdoor (5ft step) assuming it opened upwards.
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Ok, even if they could do this, there are two problems for them to overcome...
one, after only a few rounds of burning the fire would either go out from lack of air, or burn through the trapdoor "air intake spaces".
two, if it burnt through, all that super heated oil gas would be suddenly exposed to air. Explosion. Huge Explosion. Bigger than a fireball.
Want to see how it might look? Get yourself an empty paint can. drill a small hole in the side, insert the end of a 6' rubber tube. Inside the can, make a ledge out of duct tape near the hole. It doesn't have to be large, 1" wide is good. In the bottom place a candle, put 1 teaspoon of flour on the ledge, light the candle, carefully tap the lid into place. Now pick up the tube and blow, be ready for the back blow. watch the lid fly. DO NOT DO THIS INSIDE!!!
My uncle was a fire fighter for decades, oil is not fun.
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What's wrong with a cinematic-based scene instead of a rules-based scene? Was the combat that important that you couldn't just roleplay it out? A few die rolls to see if any of the guards manage to escape alive, a few rolls on the players side to see if they flummox the plan. Why get involved in rounds if you don't have to?
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... but since you asked for a solution.... use ACID. It doesn't get "used up" and puddles well. heh.
we used to mix acid with carrion crawler slime via easily breakable dual chamber glass vials. Paralized and burning sucks. ;-)
of course, our GM had such things "not go away" magically. Acid did not suddenly stop doing damage unless it was countered or washed off. So we had to deal with the "aftermath" and "leftovers". Nothing beats slipping and falling into your own acid bath.
On the other hand, against creatures with a climb speed, acid on the floor doesn't do a heck of a lot.
Plus, they just rang the front door gong if they had an explosion blowing out the doors of that room ::chuckle:: The whole dungeon would know something was up :)
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What's wrong with a cinematic-based scene instead of a rules-based scene? Was the combat that important that you couldn't just roleplay it out? A few die rolls to see if any of the guards manage to escape alive, a few rolls on the players side to see if they flummox the plan. Why get involved in rounds if you don't have to?
I can get behind that idea. We tend to role play as much as possible, and roll play only when it is scene deciding.
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Ok, even if they could do this, there are two problems for them to overcome...
one, after only a few rounds of burning the fire would either go out from lack of air, or burn through the trapdoor "air intake spaces".
two, if it burnt through, all that super heated oil gas would be suddenly exposed to air. Explosion. Huge Explosion. Bigger than a fireball.
Want to see how it might look? Get yourself an empty paint can. drill a small hole in the side, insert the end of a 6' rubber tube. Inside the can, make a ledge out of duct tape near the hole. It doesn't have to be large, 1" wide is good. In the bottom place a candle, put 1 teaspoon of flour on the ledge, light the candle, carefully tap the lid into place. Now pick up the tube and blow, be ready for the back blow. watch the lid fly. DO NOT DO THIS INSIDE!!!
My uncle was a fire fighter for decades, oil is not fun.
That's not what would happen with lamp oil, that's a dust explosion... very different animal. Oil wouldn't neccessarily explode unless it's in a confined space that's containing the off gases. This sounds like the first room of the dungeon.
You do realize the effects are already covered under "Oil" in the equipment chapter...
From the PRD:
You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.
--Scotch on the Vrocks!
That's a small amount of oil. We're talking barrel, not pint.
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I can get behind that idea. We tend to role play as much as possible, and roll play only when it is scene deciding.
I got into D&D for the tactical minigame, so I prefer good combat scenes. But I also appreciate clever ways to avoid the combat. And if the combat is going to be boring slugfests, without interesting elements to use, it is better to skip it.
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That's not what would happen with lamp oil, that's a dust explosion... very different animal. Oil wouldn't neccessarily explode unless it's in a confined space that's containing the off gases. This sounds like the first room of the dungeon.You do realize the effects are already covered under "Oil" in the equipment chapter...
From the PRD:
You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.--Scotch on the Vrocks!
Yes, it is a dust explosion, and believe it or not it is pretty close to a gas explosion. You can also get the same effect by burning anything that gives off vapors when it is super heated and not exposed to air.... making an oil fire with copeous amounts of oil would either 1) go out for lack of air and/or 2) give off such gasses. As i have said.
I could have said make yourself a quart pot of super hot cooking oil, ignore the smoke, turn the heat up to high..... but I didn't because flash fires are dangerous and kill people. Even a quart of oil will do it. It's not the same thing as pouring it on yourself and lighting it. It is much much much worse. Confined spaces does that to combustiables.
To be fair, I guess I could have picked something more safe but less fun like, light a candle, preferably one with a fat wick, let it burn a while until the wax pools well, blow it out, now quickly put a match into the smoke 4" above the candle. poof! That's the type of gas vapor I was talking about.
(and as an aside, if you add equal amounts of water and oil to a metal plate that is already hot from burning oil, you can melt it easily. That's the idea behind blast furnaces. But it works for metal door hinges pretty well. ... heh, GM's tend to not like my ideas. How about the portable hole in the bag of holding right after I cast dimentional anchor on myself? bye bye monsters. lol)