Feat idea for rogues (something that just hit me)

[jacob friesel]

i was just thinking about my rogue build and was pondering over the lack of BAB for the class, that is when it struck me. what if i could have a feat that i could exchange each die of sneak attack for a +1 BAB?
so hence
2d6 = +2bab
3d6 = +3bab
ect ect ect.

so for a 20th lvl rogue id have a maximum of +10bab
you forgo your sneak attack for that round for the exchange, you gain no extra attacks for that round from it.
so if you had say +5 BAB, and you had 3d6 sneak attack and you exchange it for the +3 BAB for a total +8 BAB, no extra attacks for beging above +6.
if you have 2 weapon fighting and made the exchange, you add the +3BAB to both attacks but once again no extra attacks made, and you get to have no other sneak attacks till the next time the target is vulnerable to another sneak attempt.

what say you??? :D

[TriOmegaZero]

I think there was something like this in Dragon. Lemme look it up in the Compendium. Basically you got a +1 to hit for every d6 you gave up, just like you said.

Edit: Precise Strike, +2 to hit per dice sacrificed for that round.

[jacob friesel]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I think there was something like this in Dragon. Lemme look it up in the Compendium. Basically you got a +1 to hit for every d6 you gave up, just like you said.

Edit: Precise Strike, +2 to hit per dice sacrificed for that round.

which compendium and page?

(just so i can show him)

[TriOmegaZero]

The hardcover Vol. 1 (and only printed volume) on page 105. Originally printed in Dragon #310.

[Majuba]

Honestly, that's a sick ability. Even if the rogue could only trade dice when he'd otherwise qualify for sneak attack, that adds a *ton* of attack bonus. Leaving it scalable as well (trading half your dice so you still deal *lots* of damage) is heavy overkill. IMHO.

[jacob friesel]

Majuba wrote:

Honestly, that's a sick ability. Even if the rogue could only trade dice when he'd otherwise qualify for sneak attack, that adds a *ton* of attack bonus. Leaving it scalable as well (trading half your dice so you still deal *lots* of damage) is heavy overkill. IMHO.

well yeah but compare that to a fighters BAB plus strength. or a fighter wizard with first lvl spell (i cant remember the spell name) that add +20 to you to hit roll?

i don't think its that unbalanced. it would only count when "sneak attack" would apply (ie the target is flat footed)
when i go solo with my rogue i don't take too many magic items (cause detect magic will light me up) unless im with the rest of the party.
i mean a fighter at 20th lvl has a BAB of +20 (if not more once you add str bonus, plus magic and such) a rogue has like what?.... 15? and maybe add there Dex if they too weapon finesse and the weapon lets you use it?
not to mention your catching the target flat footed, which is good and all, but if its a werewolf that has damage reduction or the target has a natural armor bonus and cant be flanked cause it has improved uncanny dodge (thus cant not be caught flat footed), not to mention creatures that flat out can not be sneak attack due to the fact they do not have an anatomy that would permit it. the shift from sneak attack damage to plus's to attack i think makes up for that difference. its not like im saying "add the bonus to critical threat range of weapon" (which would be kinda cool :P)

**edit** im only adding +1 per die as opposed to +2 that was offered in dragon magazine. i mean +20 at 20th lvl? yeah that's a bit much)

[jacob friesel]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

The hardcover Vol. 1 (and only printed volume) on page 105. Originally printed in Dragon #310.

what was the name of the book?

i mean the EXACT name..makes it easier on me. :D

[TriOmegaZero]

Dragon Magazine Compendium Vol. 1

[jacob friesel]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Dragon Magazine Compendium Vol. 1

thanks very much!!

[kyrt-ryder]

It's actually not at all unbalanced, I used the feat in my 3.5 games (and just now decided to add it to my Pathfinder feat list.)

Thing is, your sacrificing a d6 of damage, on every single hit you make.

Lets assume, for a moment, a level 8 rogue, with weapon finesse, a +7 dex bonus, weapon focus shortsword, and a pair of +1 shortswords dual-wielding with just twf. (We could pull the same with a bow and rapidshot, but lets not because I'm more partial to melee as a style, thematically)

I'll be kind and assume the target only has a 23 AC, I'll be taking the average percentiles of hits and applying average damage to them.

Without Precise Strike (average of the damage dealt on a hit is 18.5

+13 / 1d6+4d6+1 (50%)
+13 / 1d6+4d6+1 (50%)
+8 / 1d6+4d6+1 (25%)

125% odds of hitting, ergo.. (18+4= 22)

Precise Strike - 1d6 (+2 to hit) (Average damage dealt on a hit is 14)

+15 / 1d6+3d6+1 (60%)
+15 / 1d6+3d6+1 (60%)
+10 / 1d6+3d6+1 (35%)

155% odds of hitting, ergo... (14+7.5= 21.5)

Precise Strike - 2d6 (+4 to hit) (Average damage dealt on a hit is 11.5)

+17 / 1d6+2d6+1 (70%)
+17 / 1d6+2d6+1 (70%)
+12 / 1d6+2d6+1 (45%)

185% odds of hitting, ergo... (11.5+10 = 21.5)

Are you seeing a pattern here? The baseline, is roughly equal to the damage with sneak attack.

It's kind of like the old power attack was, but in reverse. There you gave up attack bonus for more damage, here you give up damage for more accuracy.

It's good against high AC opponents, something useful to use those sneak attack dice for against Oozes, elementals, and incorporeal undead, and a poor choice against a low AC adversary.

Hope the math here helps, it's a good feat, especially in combination with some rogue talents that trigger on a hit, but it is not overpowered.

['Rixx]

I think it would actually do better as a Rogue Talent than a feat, but it's a good one to take, I think.