A friend and I were chatting about the Arcane Trickster and he commented on something that seemed a bit unclear to him and I have to agree that it does seem like it could be unclear. For ease of reference, the text of the ability from the PRD:
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Now, the question we both had is whether this is intended to work entirely like the Sneak Attack ability (with the range limitation being the primary factor that we were wondering on) or if it actually allows for the possibility of sniping with Fireballs bolstered by Sneak Attack damage outside of the 30' normal limit for sneak attack?
Only Jason can speak on intention but it seems fairly clear that the ability as written is not limited to 30'. If a spell does damage and your enemy is flat footed add sneak attack damage. So if a Wizard 3/rogue 3/ Arcane Trickster 10 cast freezing sphere it would do 13d6 damage + 7d6 HP of damage to everyone in a 40' radius. Considering a wizard the same (character) level could fire a quickened fireball in the same round for a total of 15d6 cold and 10d6 fire damage. Or since you can do it from 200 yards away the 16th level wizard could probably drop a delayed blast fireball off in the same round as well.
Of course the higher level wizard burned 2-3 high level spells to do it but he also has a bunch more spells than the arcane trickster. From the perspective of arcane power the wizard/ sorcerer are always going to be well ahead of the trickster.
That's how I see it, too. The trickster has a neat bag of tricks, but he's no match for a sor/wiz of his level as a spellcaster. 3 levels behind is a lot.
Still, at 16th level with a cone of cold + a quickened magic missile, he's getting 12 or 13d6 +7d6 and 5d4+5 +7d6 for two 5th level slots.
If the baddie doesn't make his save, and has nothing to block the missiles, that's 112 damage, average. Not bad! A sorcerer doesn't get the surprise spell feature for another level, but he'd do the same.
Of course, a lot of monsters would barely feel 112 hp damage, but it's a nice "hello." ;) Get initiative for the next round and throw something else, then use impromptu sneak attack next round, and that extra 24.5 damage per round with spells that don't allow saves or SR(like acid arrow, or even acid splash, if you're close and don't want to waste spells or hurt party members) starts looking pretty sweet.
Of course, an equal-level caster has more and meaner spells with higher DCs than you can dish out, so look out!
I enjoy this class for a number of reasons. It's more than just a blaster, and not overpowered, IMHO.
Lots
I really dig the changes Paizo made to this class. It is a bit rough getting into, when your buddies are starting to toss fireballs and you have a handful of first level spells and some rogue abilities. Doesn't really come of it's own until 3rd level or so.
The rogue/ sorcerer is fortunately a pretty decent multi class combo though.
LotsI really dig the changes Paizo made to this class. It is a bit rough getting into, when your buddies are starting to toss fireballs and you have a handful of first level spells and some rogue abilities. Doesn't really come of it's own until 3rd level or so.
The rogue/ sorcerer is fortunately a pretty decent multi class combo though.
Agreed. The price to get there is high, even with the lowered requirements. You're just not that cool 'til double digit levels.
I remember playing a sorcerer who wanted to get into archmage. It was no fun taking sub-optimal feats and being kinda weak for his level, but when he finally got spell-shaping, it was all worth it.
The AT is sorta that way. Didn't you start the beta thread about "the AT is too hard to qualify for and offers too little reward?" I'm glad they listened. The PrCs all seem more worth taking, now, and have more flavor. Yes, even the duelist! :)
Agreed. The price to get there is high, even with the lowered requirements. You're just not that cool 'til double digit levels.
I remember playing a sorcerer who wanted to get into archmage. It was no fun taking sub-optimal feats and being kinda weak for his level, but when he finally got spell-shaping, it was all worth it.
The AT is sorta that way. Didn't you start the beta thread about "the AT is too hard to qualify for and offers too little reward?" I'm glad they listened. The PrCs all seem more worth taking, now, and have more flavor. Yes, even the duelist! :)
Yes, I did start that thread. I went back and re-read it, it's cool to see how much of what was suggested came out in the final (most of it not mine).
I think some other stuff came out of that too but I don't recall. IMO the changes between beta and final really turned this into a playable class.
Thanks for the responses guys. Something else that occurred to me that also seems a bit murky is the mention that the damage type changes. Does that mean that it's no longer 'sneak attack' damage and instead something else, thus bypassing immunity to sneak attack? I know this isn't nearly as powerful as it used to be given that so many creatures that used to have immunity don't anymore, but it's still something interesting to see.
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It is still 'sneak attack damage', but what the ability means to reference is that it is also considered 'fire damage' if on a fireball, or 'cold damage' if on a cone of cold, which may have further applications based on the monster attacked. This is similar to how 3.5 worked with sneak attacks on rays.
Immunity to sneak attack would still apply, I believe.
Your God of Knowledge,
Nethys
Thanks for the responses guys. Something else that occurred to me that also seems a bit murky is the mention that the damage type changes. Does that mean that it's no longer 'sneak attack' damage and instead something else, thus bypassing immunity to sneak attack? I know this isn't nearly as powerful as it used to be given that so many creatures that used to have immunity don't anymore, but it's still something interesting to see.
Sneak attack deals extra damage of whatever type the attack is. So if you sneak attack with scorching ray you are dealing extra fire damage. If you are bludgeoning it's bludgeoning damage.
Ah of course lol. The answer was so simple I overlooked it! I appreciate the help guys.
Yes, I did start that thread. I went back and re-read it, it's cool to see how much of what was suggested came out in the final (most of it not mine).
Easier qualification
Silent/ still spell
Unlimited use of Ranged Legerdemain I think some other stuff came out of that too but I don't recall. IMO the changes between beta and final really turned this into a playable class.
"Tricky Spells," which, if I recall correctly, was coined by me! They just start handing it to you at 5th level. I suggested skill-based checks for silent and still spells, but they made it easier. The X/day keeps it from being abused, I guess. Hell, the way it works now, you could sneak attack someone who isn't expecting you to do anything.
"We were just talking, then BOOM!" lol
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this seems like a good place to ask this question. for those levels before you get surprise spells, can you still apply sneak attack to ranged or melee touch spells that still qualify for sneak attack (flat-footed or denied dexterity)?
example: 3 rogue/3 wizard. i cast scorching ray against a target within 30 feet that is flat-footed. i roll the attack and hit. do i get to apply my 2d6 sneak attack, or do i have to wait until i have 10 levels of arcane trickster to do this?
