| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
2. Does this description apply to all my AoOs, only my AoOs granted by combat reflexes, or doesn't apply (e.g., using an off-hand weapon to make the AoOs)?
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities."
1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
2. Does this description apply to all my AoOs, only my AoOs granted by combat reflexes, or doesn't apply (e.g., using an off-hand weapon to make the AoOs)?
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities."
Well, I won't try and answer the 2nd part, seeing as it's been ground into the dirt and back in another thread, and I have some reservations about the 1st part.
I'm uncertain a Whip and Lunge would work together at all, the Whip, unlike, say, a Lance, doesn't exactly follow the usual rules for Reach (doubling the wielder's base reach) instead it has a special note in it's description that says it's "Treated as if it had 15 ft. reach" I'm not 100% on exactly how that would interact with lunge, but there's really not a super clear answer either way that I can find.
The whip also doesn't threaten, which would prevent you from taking Attacks of Opportunity.
It's a bit of a moot point though, since you can do the same trick with a normal reach weapon and enlarge person (you actually end up with a 25 ft. reach between weapon reach, enlarge, and lunge, plus as a large creature you occupy a 10' by 10' area, making your total covered area 60 feet wide.) (And I have to give credit to Thrikreed for forcing me to double check all this and see that yes, enlarge person really does work that way, it's crazy, but legal according to RAW.)
So with those reservations out of the way, I can't see any reason, from a rules as written standpoint, that a Whirlwind of trips wouldn't be legal. Unbelievably cheezy, but legal.
Keep in mind that the way that reach works is that you can't attack foes that are too close to you. So using a whip means that you can strike foes 3 squares distant (4 squares if using Lunge feat), but any foes closer to you can't be attacked with the whip.
You could concievable be wielding two weapons, like a whip and a flail, and then be able to trip foes 1 square and 3 squares distant (2 squares and 4 squares distant with Lunge feat), but without the two weapon fighting feat, your penalties would be high and this combo requires a lot of feats already.
Keep in mind that the way that reach works is that you can't attack foes that are too close to you. ...
Whip:
"In addition, unlike most otherweapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere
within your reach (including adjacent foes)."
Whip:
"In addition, unlike most other
weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere
within your reach (including adjacent foes)."
Well, I'll be danged. You are correct sir.
The whip also doesn't threaten, which would prevent you from taking Attacks of Opportunity.
Unless I have another weapon in another hand, or I'm a monk?
It's a bit of a moot point though, since you can do the same trick with a normal reach weapon and enlarge person (you actually end up with a 25 ft. reach between weapon reach, enlarge, and lunge, plus as a large creature you occupy a 10' by 10' area, making your total covered area 60 feet wide.) (And I have to give credit to Thrikreed for forcing me to double check all this and see that yes, enlarge person really does work that way, it's crazy, but legal according to RAW.)
So with those reservations out of the way, I can't see any reason, from a rules as written standpoint, that a Whirlwind of trips wouldn't be legal. Unbelievably cheezy, but legal.
The reach weapon wouldn't allow you to trip opponents close to you so 30' of that 60' would be unaffected. The whip would cover everything (and provoke from people adjacent to you).
The reach weapon wouldn't allow you to trip opponents close to you so 30' of that 60' would be unaffected. The whip would cover everything (and provoke from people adjacent to you).
Only the 10 ft. directly adjacent to you would be unthreatened, actually, a large reach weapon threatens the squares 15 and 20 ft away, and leaves the squares 5 and 10 ft. away uncovered. Admittedly, you'd be unable to trip in those adjacent squares unless you had improved unarmed attack, but you'd be losing 28 tiles of threatened area in exchange for 44 tiles in the outermost 60x60 squares. You'd also gain more options for positioning, but that's situational.
Unless I have another weapon in another hand, or I'm a monk?
You could still only make opportunity attacks against adjacent foes. The exception, if the rules allow it, would be opportunity attacks made during your own turn while lunging, which could only be made against foes 2 squares distant.
I also think that if you whirlwind attack with a whip while lunging, you will not be able to attack foes in squares adjacent to you. However the rules on this topic seem less than 100% clear to me.
...
Well, I won't try and answer the 2nd part, seeing as it's been ground into the dirt and back in another thread,...
I found the thread, thanks!
I found the thread, thanks!...
Well, I won't try and answer the 2nd part, seeing as it's been ground into the dirt and back in another thread,...
Heh, don't let the incredible neckbearded rage that runs through that thread run you off, there actually is some decent info there.
1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
2. Does this description apply to all my AoOs, only my AoOs granted by combat reflexes, or doesn't apply (e.g., using an off-hand weapon to make the AoOs)?
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities."
This represents only how I interpret the rules.
1 - You can attack all foes 10', 15', and 20' away.
(Lunge works fine just not against adjacent foes)
2 - You do not get attacks of opportunity from Greater Trip.
(Drawback of Whirlwind Attack)
1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
2. Does this description apply to all my AoOs, only my AoOs granted by combat reflexes, or doesn't apply (e.g., using an off-hand weapon to make the AoOs)?
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities."
This represents only how I interpret the rules.
1 - You can attack all foes 10', 15', and 20' away.
(Lunge works fine just not against adjacent foes)2 - You do not get attacks of opportunity from Greater Trip.
(Drawback of Whirlwind Attack)
I disagree. An AOO is not an attack and therefore is not affected. Otherwise if you use whirlwind attack for the rest of that round you would not get AOOs.
I disagree. An AOO is not an attack and therefore is not affected. Otherwise if you use whirlwind attack for the rest of that round you would not get AOOs.
AoO stands for ATTACK of Opportunity - it is an attack, even if it is not a separate attack action.
Whirlwind Attack only impedes extra attacks the moment you use it. Afterwards, when your turn has ended you function normally. Otherwise I would expect a formulation akin to that of Power Attack or Combat Expertise.
I disagree. An AOO is not an attack and therefore is not affected. Otherwise if you use whirlwind attack for the rest of that round you would not get AOOs.AoO stands for ATTACK of Opportunity - it is an attack, even if it is not a separate attack action.
Whirlwind Attack only impedes extra attacks the moment you use it. Afterwards, when your turn has ended you function normally. Otherwise I would expect a formulation akin to that of Power Attack or Combat Expertise.
The arguement you are making then is since Attack is in the term "Attack of Opportunity" makes it not work. But the problem is an ATTACK is different then an "ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY"
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1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
I believe the diameter is 100 ft. (15 ft reach from whip + 5ft natural) *2 enlarge = 40 ft +5 ft from lunge (enlarge only doubles weapon and natural reach)... Oh and +10 feet for the 10' by 10' square large creatures occupy in the center of that.
If you have a mount, you share your mount's space during combat. (PRGCR pg 202). So if you are a druid you can cast animal growth on your animal companion (horse) or if you could cast enlarge person on yourself (from say level cleric strength domain/sorcerer/wizard) you can have a 15 x 15 foot horse and take that to a 105 ft diameter.
Oh, and don't forget to have the wizard cast fly on you so you become immune to counter trips.
2. Does this description apply to all my AoOs, only my AoOs granted by combat reflexes, or doesn't apply (e.g., using an off-hand weapon to make the AoOs)?
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit
any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells,
or abilities."
Personally, I would say it turns off your own AoO for the duration of your Whirlwind Attack action. Note: This does not turn off your allies AoO from you tripping someone in squares they threaten. Nor would I say it turns off your AoO on anyone elses turn.
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The whip also doesn't threaten, which would prevent you from taking Attacks of Opportunity.
Unless I have another weapon in another hand, or I'm a monk?
In either case, this would be considered two-weapon fighting.
Interesting... Two-Weapon Fighting does not seem to be granted by a feat, spell, or ability. There are feats that give additional benefits for two-weapon fighting though.
Wish I had noticed this for the other string.
Nevermind, I would say if the AoO are turned off during the Whirlwind Attack action so would the two-weapon fighting (and vice versa).
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Hi.
I am surprised to think that Lunge CAN be added to Whirlwind attack.
The wayI see "Lunge" is the attacker stretching his arm and body forward to reach his opponent at 10' and thus being unbalanced (hence the -2 to AC).
The Whirlwind Attack on the other hand, would be more on keeping arm close to your body in order to turn quickly in a whirlwind just like ice-skaters do for example.
I can hardly see the two mix.
My 2 cents.
AoO stands for ATTACK of Opportunity - it is an attack, even if it is not a separate attack action.
But is it a "regular" attack, as only regular attacks are given up for Whirlwind attack?
While I can see the interest in the THEORETICAL discussion of this sort of combo...
As a GM and player, I think that anyone who does this sort of cheese-stacking in a regular game should be bludgeoned about the head and shoulders with the new Pathfinder Rulebook...
(Such a weighty tome, perfect for disciplining rules lawyers and munchkins. I may have to order a second copy just for that purpose...)
Seriously, I think there is a point where the letter of the rules should not surpass the spirit of the game.
That said, these sorts of discussions can be fun, out of game...
As a GM and player, I think that anyone who does this sort of cheese-stacking in a regular game should be bludgeoned about the head and shoulders with the new Pathfinder Rulebook...
I'm not sure what cheese you're talking about? Is it the *10* feats (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Lunge, Combat Reflexes, Whirlwind Attack) required to pull off this combo? Or is it the mighty 1d3 of non-lethal damage (or _zero_ damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher) the whip does that earns the "cheese-stacking" title?
As a GM and player, I think that anyone who does this sort of cheese-stacking in a regular game should be bludgeoned about the head and shoulders with the new Pathfinder Rulebook...I'm not sure what cheese you're talking about? Is it the *10* feats (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Lunge, Combat Reflexes, Whirlwind Attack) required to pull off this combo? Or is it the mighty 1d3 of non-lethal damage (or _zero_ damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher) the whip does that earns the "cheese-stacking" title?
I have to agree with Meabolex here, in 3.5 I had to arrange for more than one chain tripper to be "mysteriously" killed in the night as a "plot hook" but considering the number of feats it takes to accomplish this sort of thing now, I have much less of an issue with it. It seems on par with the sort of thing a really specialized archer or twf can do with the same number of feats after all.
I have to agree with Meabolex here, in 3.5 I had to arrange for more than one chain tripper to be "mysteriously" killed in the night as a "plot hook" but considering the number of feats it takes to accomplish this sort of thing now, I have much less of an issue with it.
It would be an awesome thing for a bard to be able to do, but the feat requirement is just brutal. A human with 8 levels of fighter can pull this off, but that means no Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus. . .
I can see an NPC designed to do this, but a PC doing it would just be kind of ridiculous.
I have to agree with Meabolex here, in 3.5 I had to arrange for more than one chain tripper to be "mysteriously" killed in the night as a "plot hook" but considering the number of feats it takes to accomplish this sort of thing now, I have much less of an issue with it. It seems on par with the sort of thing a really specialized archer or twf can do with the same number of feats after all.As a GM and player, I think that anyone who does this sort of cheese-stacking in a regular game should be bludgeoned about the head and shoulders with the new Pathfinder Rulebook...I'm not sure what cheese you're talking about? Is it the *10* feats (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Lunge, Combat Reflexes, Whirlwind Attack) required to pull off this combo? Or is it the mighty 1d3 of non-lethal damage (or _zero_ damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher) the whip does that earns the "cheese-stacking" title?
Yeah, but careful, because that whip turns into a +1 flaming, shocking, sonic, freezing weapon, and suddenly, it's 1d3+4d6 all over the battlefield. ;-p
In all seriousness, had a minotaur PC in 3.0, and there *was* no level adjustment for reach weapon + large + natural reach. It's just a large section of the battlefield where none could move without death.
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Or is it the mighty 1d3 of non-lethal damage (or _zero_ damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher) the whip does that earns the "cheese-stacking" title?
When I came up with this combo, I had the rogue using a whip and the rogue Bleeding Attack. Note: The Bleeding Attack only requires hitting with a sneak attack, not assigning damage. The bleed also ignores DR.
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A human with 8 levels of fighter can pull this off, but that means no Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Focus. . .
Just a minor correct as the PRGCR changed character feat progression... Human grants 1, 6th level character (1st, 3rd, 5th) grants 3, 6th level fighter (1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th) grants 4; 8 feats at 6th level. This is sorta awesome because more or less end up getting a feat every level.
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Yeah, but careful, because that whip turns into a +1 flaming, shocking, sonic, freezing weapon, and suddenly, it's 1d3+4d6 all over the battlefield. ;-pIn all seriousness, had a minotaur PC in 3.0, and there *was* no level adjustment for reach weapon + large + natural reach. It's just a large section of the battlefield where none could move without death.
In a party I'm running the rogue is doing the whip build to do damage(no need for trips feats then, though he still selectively trips people) and the fighter is doing the polearm trip build. I've looked the rules over, look at how far they could exploit it together (with the wizard and druid buffing them). The cheese of it is awe inspiring. They hadn't even realized it until I directed them to the thread.
In a party I'm running the rogue is doing the whip build to do damage(no need for trips feats then, though he still selectively trips people) and the fighter is doing the polearm trip build. I've looked the rules over, look at how far they could exploit it together (with the wizard and druid buffing them). The cheese of it is awe inspiring. They hadn't even realized it until I directed them to the thread.
Yeah, but careful, because that whip turns into a +1 flaming, shocking, sonic, freezing weapon, and suddenly, it's 1d3+4d6 all over the battlefield. ;-pIn all seriousness, had a minotaur PC in 3.0, and there *was* no level adjustment for reach weapon + large + natural reach. It's just a large section of the battlefield where none could move without death.
Much easier just to be an 8th lvl druid who can turn into a Giant Squid with 11 attacks plus adding whatever bonuses you want from your amulet of mighty fists....
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Much easier just to be an 8th lvl druid who can turn into a Giant Squid with 11 attacks plus adding whatever bonuses you want from your amulet of mighty fists....In a party I'm running the rogue is doing the whip build to do damage(no need for trips feats then, though he still selectively trips people) and the fighter is doing the polearm trip build. I've looked the rules over, look at how far they could exploit it together (with the wizard and druid buffing them). The cheese of it is awe inspiring. They hadn't even realized it until I directed them to the thread...
Yeah, but careful, because that whip turns into a +1 flaming, shocking, sonic, freezing weapon, and suddenly, it's 1d3+4d6 all over the battlefield. ;-pIn all seriousness, had a minotaur PC in 3.0, and there *was* no level adjustment for reach weapon + large + natural reach. It's just a large section of the battlefield where none could move without death.
That does sound impressive.
Since I've shown them the original thread... days? weeks?... ago, it has become apparent they are building toward it.
I'm both awed and horrified for the fighter I'm talking about. I've verified that he had at about 8th level a CMB of 21+, an AC of 32+, and a CMD of 34+ (38+ vs trips). He had a ring of deflection +3 (9k), full plate +2 (6k), shield +2 (4k), weapon +2 (8k), belt of physical might +2 (5k), and a couple of potions... Which puts him right about where he should have been for his level (33k). His weakness seems to forcing him to make reflex (+7-ish) and will (+3-ish) saves. I sorta fear the dominate person TPK that may be coming.
Note: The Bleeding Attack only requires hitting with a sneak attack, not assigning damage.
One day you will be President.
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I'm skeptical of the application of such a thing, even if it does technically adhere to RAW. You have to consider exactly what the whip is doing when you're trying to trip someone: you're not just sort of hitting the sides of your target's legs and pushing their legs out from under them like you would with a polearm. Whips are far too flexible for that to be a credible way to trip someone. Instead, you trip with a whip by wrapping around one of their extremities and physically yanking them off balance.
Trying to whirlwind attack with a whip would amount to you spinning in a circle and smacking everyone in a 15' radius with it. You might be able to trip a group of enemies with a polearm that way, but it's more likely the whip would just bend and pass harmlessly by the legs of the people you're hitting. You'd honestly have to be moving /very/ fast to even keep the momentum up after hitting the first person.
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I'm skeptical of the application of such a thing, even if it does technically adhere to RAW. You have to consider exactly what the whip is doing when you're trying to trip someone: you're not just sort of hitting the sides of your target's legs and pushing their legs out from under them like you would with a polearm. Whips are far too flexible for that to be a credible way to trip someone. Instead, you trip with a whip by wrapping around one of their extremities and physically yanking them off balance.Trying to whirlwind attack with a whip would amount to you spinning in a circle and smacking everyone in a 15' radius with it. You might be able to trip a group of enemies with a polearm that way, but it's more likely the whip would just bend and pass harmlessly by the legs of the people you're hitting. You'd honestly have to be moving /very/ fast to even keep the momentum up after hitting the first person.
You are correct, it does not make sense in real life. But then, in real life, neither does lightning bolts and fireballs flying from my finger tips. Since the rules seem to allow both...
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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You are correct, it does not make sense in real life. But then, in real life, neither does lightning bolts and fireballs flying from my finger tips. Since the rules seem to allow both...
This frequently gets pulled out in a discussion of "realism" in D&D or any fantasy universe, and it misses the point. Yes, according to the laws of physics, real-life people can't shoot lightning from their ass. However, it's a fundamental element of the various D&D universes that certain people can do exactly that, and the laws of physics allow for such things.
On the other hand, the world still maintains verisimilitude. Swords, axes, hammers, bows, and crossbows all still behave the same way they do in the real world, so whips shouldn't be any different. That sort of disconnect between RAW and verisimilitude is the source of much of the breaking of immersion one sees at the gaming table.
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You are correct, it does not make sense in real life. But then, in real life, neither does lightning bolts and fireballs flying from my finger tips. Since the rules seem to allow both...
This frequently gets pulled out in a discussion of "realism" in D&D or any fantasy universe, and it misses the point. Yes, according to the laws of physics, real-life people can't shoot lightning from their ass. However, it's a fundamental element of the various D&D universes that certain people can do exactly that, and the laws of physics allow for such things.
The laws of physics allow for what? Never mind…
On the other hand, the world still maintains verisimilitude. Swords, axes, hammers, bows, and crossbows all still behave the same way they do in the real world, so whips shouldn't be any different. That sort of disconnect between RAW and verisimilitude is the source of much of the breaking of immersion one sees at the gaming table.
Well let me provide a couple other immersion-breaking revelations.
In the real world, the record for weight lifted overhead is 580 lbs. A 1st level raging barbarian with strength of 20 can lift 700 lbs. overhead without magic. A 20th level raging barbarian, again without magic, can lift 2400lbs overhead.
In the real world, the record for fastest mile is 3 minutes 43.13 seconds. Any character that can move 40ft a round (say a 1st level barbarian) can run a mile in 3 minutes 30 seconds. A 20th level monk with the run feat can achieve speeds up to 53 miles per hour, running the mile in 1 minute 17.33 seconds.
Do I even need to go into skill checks?
My point is that reality and game mechanics do not go hand in hand, and I’m here to play the game not the reality. If the game says it can happen, I’m going to do my darnedest to argue the game is right even if it means saying… Please remove your reality from my fantasy.
Has there been an official ruling on:
1 - Does Whirlwind Attack allow AoO from Greater Trip?
2 - Does Greater Trip permit AoO from all creatures threatening the tripped target?
3 - Does Lunge effectively increase reach by 1 square (as monster reach)or does it displace the reach by 1 square (as reach weapon reach).
I'm in no place to say anything about "official" rulings, but...
1 - Does Whirlwind Attack allow AoO from Greater Trip?
I don't see why not. WwA clearly states you only give up regular attacks and additional attacks granted by feats, spells, and abilities. It doesn't talk about AoO.
2 - Does Greater Trip permit AoO from all creatures threatening the tripped target?
The rules don't say "provokes attacks of opportunity from you", they just say it provokes AoO, so yeah.
3 - Does Lunge effectively increase reach by 1 square (as monster reach)or does it displace the reach by 1 square (as reach weapon reach).
I don't see anything saying you lose the 5' adjacent to you. Increased Reach isn't a condition for which there are standardized rules, so you should go word-for-word as it is in the feat.
The general listing for reach is as follows:
Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.
And I think I saw something about AoO with lunge? Did someone answer that? I'm delirious with sleep. Anyways, you only get AoO during your turn. When your turn is over, you lose lunge.
But you can't do any AoO with a whip, so you have to do this combo with another weapon.
I'm in no place to say anything about "official" rulings, but...
I have followed the discussion on this thread and am now only interested in an OFFICIAL ruling.
Has there been an OFFICIAL ruling on:
1 - Does Whirlwind Attack allow AoO from Greater Trip?
2 - Does Greater Trip permit AoO from all creatures threatening the tripped target?
3 - Does Lunge effectively increase reach by 1 square (as monster reach)or does it displace the reach by 1 square (as reach weapon reach).
I am well aware of all points already made and think an OFFICIAL oppinion on this is dearly needed.
Trying to whirlwind attack with a whip would amount to you spinning in a circle and smacking everyone in a 15' radius with it. You might be able to trip a group of enemies with a polearm that way, but it's more likely the whip would just bend and pass harmlessly by the legs of the people you're hitting. You'd honestly have to be moving /very/ fast to even keep the momentum up after hitting the first person.
I see Whirlwind Attack with a whip to be using the momentum from pulling back from a strike being used to attack someone on an opposite side, not necessarily a "sweep" in a circular motion, more a series of diameter lines, one side then the other, one side, then the other. I wouldn't force a player to actually do it this way, but its a good explanation.
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I am well aware of all points already made and think an OFFICIAL oppinion on this is dearly needed.Has there been an OFFICIAL ruling on:
1 - Does Whirlwind Attack allow AoO from Greater Trip?
2 - Does Greater Trip permit AoO from all creatures threatening the tripped target?
3 - Does Lunge effectively increase reach by 1 square (as monster reach)or does it displace the reach by 1 square (as reach weapon reach).
I dont think so if you just look at the wording a bit more thoroughly...
1 and 2. The contraversial line here is in Whirlwind Attack... "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."
Greater Trip however states ..."Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, provokes attack of opportunity."
Now lets look at attacks of opportunity... "Sometimes a combatant lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defence to attack her for . These attacks are called attacks of opportunity."
Conclusion: Whirlwind attack prevents from making or attacks when used. Greater Trip forces to provoke attacks of opportunity. Your opponent grants who threaten them a (not a bonus or extra) attack if they are entitled to one.
3. Lunge ..."You can of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a -2 penalty to your AC until your next turn."
Reach Weapons..." Most reach weapons , meaning that a typical smal or medium wielder of such a weapon can attac a creature 10 feet away. A typical Large creature wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creature or creatures up to 10 feet away."
Conclusion: Lunge by 5 feet not the . so a medium creature with a longsword threatens 5 feet with a longsword or 5 and 10 feet with a lunge. A large creature with a longsword theatends 5 10 and 15 feet with lunge. A medium creature with a Glaive threatens 10 and 15 feet with lunge, A large creature with a Glaive threatens 15 20 and 25 feet with lunge.
As a side note on this if an opponent readied an action against a character trying to lunge an opponent taking a 5 ft step backwards to use lunge safely against that opponent would suffer the -2 AC but then the opponents readied action would kick in allowing him to advance 5 feet and full attack against his opponents reduced AC. or simply 5ft step back themselves out of the extra reach lunge provides (and potentially setting them up for a charge.
Also note that lunge works till the end of the turn so would also apply for potential AoO's made by the character
1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
No for a couple of reasons. Whirlwind doesn't allow the use of other feats with it so you couldn't use the feat lunge with it. Whips do not threaten and whirlwind only hits squares you threaten, so a whip basically can't be used with whirlwind.
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No for a couple of reasons. Whirlwind doesn't allow the use of other feats with it so you couldn't use the feat lunge with it. Whips do not threaten and whirlwind only hits squares you threaten, so a whip basically can't be used with whirlwind.1. Would that combo really allow me to make trip CMs against everyone within 20' (45' diameter circle), and apply Greater trip as well (all the tripped opponents provoke AoOs from anyone threatening them)?
Not to mention you couldnt use greater trip with whirlwind attack either.
However if you drop whirlwind attack you can use whip with lunge and greater trip to hit someone up to 20 ft from you causing nearby allies to unleash attacks of opportunities on them. not a bad tactic for a supporting character like a rogue or bard.
One question I have that has sprung up in this analysis...
Do creatures provide Soft Cover versus a Whip as if you had used a ranged weapon? currently I'm ruling no since the whip is a melee weapon and only provokes attacks like a ranged weapon.
My understanding has been that creatures provide cover even if you are using a melee reach weapon. After all they are still something big between you and your foe.
Whips do not threaten and whirlwind only hits squares you threaten, so a whip basically can't be used with whirlwind.
This part is entirely correct.
No for a couple of reasons. Whirlwind doesn't allow the use of other feats with it so you couldn't use the feat lunge with it.
This part on the other hand is a really dicey extension of some logic that was already really iffy to begin with, and is in no way supported by the rules.
You can strike out at every foe within reach.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
All of this "You can't use Whirlwind Attack with other feats" nonsense seems to be based on the wording of that last sentence, which, admittedly, is a bit vague about exactly what types of bonus/extra attacks you lose when using whirlwind attack. But trying to extend that to just flat out mean "You can use no other feat while using Whirlwind Attack, including Lunge" is just flat out nonsense.
Personally I think the arguments that you can't make attacks of opportunity while using Whirlwind Attack are nonsense as well, for other reasons, but that's already been argued to death.
The way I've read it is that a comma is missing, and that is the "local" method of use as well, however that isn't to say it is the only true way or even the necessarily the correct way.
Personally that last sentence is one that makes me glad no one locally takes whirlwind attack.
Has there been an official ruling on:
1 - Does Whirlwind Attack allow AoO from Greater Trip?
2 - Does Greater Trip permit AoO from all creatures threatening the tripped target?
3 - Does Lunge effectively increase reach by 1 square (as monster reach) or does it displace the reach by 1 square (as reach weapon reach).
Nope, I’ve wanted official rulings on these questions and others, yet have found none.
1 - Does Whirlwind Attack allow AoO from Greater Trip?
I don't see why not. WwA clearly states you only give up regular attacks and additional attacks granted by feats, spells, and abilities. It doesn't talk about AoO.
Unfortunately, I disagree.
Now, I could argue an Attack of Opportunity is an ability. This is supported by trees not making AoO and by the ability being turned off by some conditions like Flat-Footed (and dead, paralyzed, and unconscious… though not as clearly).
Now the counter to this argument is to say that Whirlwind Attack is not a bonus or extra attack as I believe Quijenoth did rather well.
Now, this is where I’d bring up the better argument… an Attack of Opportunity is a “regular attack”.
Since Whirlwind Attack says, “Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack against each opponent within reach.” The Attacks of Opportunity would be given up by the Whirlwind Attacker.
Now it might be argued that a “Regular Attack” is not clearly defined. I’d agree with this too and think it should become #4 on list of questions needing official rulings. Until we get the official ruling, I think the best unofficial ruling is: Any attack not clearly defined as a special attack is a regular attack.
2 - Does Greater Trip permit AoO from all creatures threatening the tripped target?
The rules don't say "provokes attacks of opportunity from you", they just say it provokes AoO, so yeah.
I agree with Loopy… It’s quite clear that Greater Trip does permit this. I do not think there is a need for an official ruling on this.
3 - Does Lunge effectively increase reach by 1 square (as monster reach) or does it displace the reach by 1 square (as reach weapon reach).
Neither.
Lunge says, “Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a -2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.”
Outside of Lunge, reach is only covered in two places.
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Reach Weapons: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.
Lunge does not provide you with a reach weapon nor change a pre-existing weapon to a reach weapon. Lunge does not increase your natural reach.
So because of Lunge’s wording… regardless of whether you had a natural reach of 5 feet or 60 feet and regardless of whether you were wielding a reach weapon or not… Lunge only increases the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn.
I do not think there is a need for an official ruling on this. Though I can certainly understand wanting the reach from Lunge to be considered part of the equation (reach weapon times two multiplier for natural reach)… If I asked for an official ruling on this, I’d feel like I would when I asked my father for permission to do something and he said no, then turning around and asking mom in hopes of a different answer.
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Whips do not threaten and whirlwind only hits squares you threaten, so a whip basically can't be used with whirlwind.
This part is entirely correct.
That doesn't sound right to me...
Whip does mention something about threat, but let's look at the whole thing, shall we?
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it is not a light weapon.
Whirlwind Attack says nothing about squares you threaten. It says...
You can strike out at every foe within reach.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a seperate attack roll against each opponent.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
So... According to the PRGCR, a whip can be used to make a Whirlwind Attack.
Now if you combine the Greater Trip feat which says…
You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normal:Creatures do not provoke attacks of opportunity from being tripped.
Then yes, while the Whirlwind Attack tripper does not get an AoO from his own trip because a whip does not threaten, he does allow other allies which threaten the tripped creature an AoO.
Please do consider the following:
An 8th level human fighter build that has a trip CMB of +21 (Str Mod +8 (22 Str, +4 stat item), BAB +8, fighter weapon training +1 (pole arms), feats +4). He has Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Lunge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack. With two spells - Enlarge Person and Fly, he adds a huge area to the reach and becomes immune to being tripped back. He can take a total of 3 AoO per round (1 + 2 from Dex).
So when he attacks and trips everything within 5 squares of him ((5ft reach + 5ft reach from Guisarme)*2 for Enlarge Person + 5ft from lunge) with his +22 (21, +2 for Enlarge Person), what are his draw backs? He can’t attack within 10 feet of himself. He might not roll their CMD because he needs 9's or less (a lot less probably).
Now combine that fighter from above with the 9th level human rogue… His CMB is only +14 (Dex Mod +8 (22 Dex, +4 stat item), BAB +6) so he only selectively trips casters. He has Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus: Whip, and Whirlwind Attack (not sure which one was picked with the rogue's Combat Trick). With three spells - Enlarge Person, Fly, and Improved Invisibility, he's up to 9 squares reach, immune to being tripped, and sneak attacking with every attack. He's swinging at +19 to hit and ignores the targets Dex to AC. He does 1d3+2 (+2 whip) +3 (str) + 5d6 (sneak attack) + 5 (Bleeding Attack, ignores damage reduction) for an average of 29.5 damage… Compared to a 9th level wizard’s Fireball which is only ¼ the area and averages 31.5 damage it’s broken… Since the rogue can do this 9 rounds for every casting of Improved Invisibility.
These two characters are just scary in unison.
Whip does mention something about threat, but let's look at the whole thing, shall we?
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.
Largely this means that a rogue is inefective with a whip and his sneak attack becomes useless. If you are wielding a weapon that does not do any damage you cannot with any reason argue that you can do sneak attack with it either.
The rogue might however trip enemies with the whip, but cannot himself benefit from the AoO from Greater Trip.
At the same time the fighter does not benefit from lunge when making AoO.
I am inclined to agree with you on all counts.
If anything I was concerned that the lunge+whirl wind attack combo was too powerful.
Now I might have a new perspective on it. One of my players is using the combo in our campaign.
He has a quite decent fighter with these feats, but the combo is not really so lethal. He gets to shine when fighting loads of less formidable opponents delivering an average of 17 hp dmg to all foes within 15' (lunge+enlarge person). This might clear an area of henchmen and cannon fother in 3 rounds (or 2 is backed by a fireball). In the mean time these meanins get to make attacks as normal for 2 or 3 rounds).
What really is starting to trouble me is how this tactc might affect parti survivability. Right now the party is headed into a den of ogre barbarians with an average of 110 hp and able to deliver considerable ammounts of damage. With the described damage output the fighter would be 7 rounds in defeating a group of these ogres (half that if baked by fireballs). If the ogres do 35 hp dmg on average each, that would be 140hp dmg/rnd for a group of 4 ogres, which over 3 rounds = 420hp dmg (enough to severely damge the party and kill 1 or 2 characters) for and over 7 rounds = 980hp dmg (enough for a two times over TPK).
As I see it if the fighter relies too heavily on whirlwind attacks he is going to doom himself and the party. [Something I am not at all interested in!]
I've said in another thread how I believe Lunge+WW+G. Trip is all viable. I consider it that way since an AoO is considered an interrupt. Thing is as scary as the combo is theoretically I believe it the result is going to be much less effective than imagined. As Grandfather mentioned is happening in his group, it's only going to be an effective combo against many bipedal foes of your size. If they're larger their CMD is going to be quite abit better. The over reliance on making checks against someones CMD is going to result in quite a respectable failure rate meaning theres a decent enough chance theyre going to end up tripping themselves. Also the cost of this combo in terms of feats and optimizing your CMB is going to severely limit the character in other areas.
So I put forth its not as game breaking as it seems on paper. Also, an over reliance on this tactic will have consequences that balance out or may even negate any benefits.
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As Grandfather mentioned is happening in his group, it's only going to be an effective combo against many bipedal foes of your size. If they're larger their CMD is going to be quite abit better. The over reliance on making checks against someones CMD is going to result in quite a respectable failure rate meaning theres a decent enough chance theyre going to end up tripping themselves.
The 4th level CR 7 Barbarian Ogres listed in the MM3.5 would have a CMD of 27 (10, +7 BAB, +8 from Str, +0 from Dex, +1 from Size, +1 from the Ring of Protection). The regular CR 3 Ogre only has a CMD of 18 (10, +3 BAB, +5 from Str, -1 from Dex, +1 from Size).
The 8th level human fighter mentioned previously has a trip CMB of +21 (Str Mod +8 (22 Str, +4 stat item), BAB +8, fighter weapon training +1 (pole arms), feats +4). Against the CR 7 Barbarian Ogres, he trips them on a roll of a 6 (8 if raging). If the fighter has enlarge person cast on him, he trips on a 5. If he has fly cast on him, he's immune to counter trips. Against the regular CR 3 Ogres, he's unstoppable.
So in the scenario of 4 or more Barbarian Ogres, he's probably going to keep 65-75% (up to his dex modifier + 1) of them on the ground...
So I put forth its not as game breaking as it seems on paper. Also, an over reliance on this tactic will have consequences that balance out or may even negate any benefits.
I agree, it's not game breaking. I've seen it play out. There are levels which it shines... and there are situations where it shines... Outside those levels and situations it's not worth it. I think it still needs a healthy dose of respect though.