I've read the spell "bleed" (0 level spell) and it says the target is entitled for a saving throw.
I just find it weird that a creature that is dying (thus helpless) is entitled for that save. Can somebody please elaborate? Doesn't a sleeping/unconscious/helpless creature automatically fail saving throws?
e.g. a person is sleeping and a wizard throws a fireball at him. The sleeping person automatically fails the throw and takes full damage?
It depends on the circumstances of the save. If avoiding the attack (and thus making the saving throw) requires conscious physical or mental effort on the part of the target, then being in a situation where you can't make that effort (e.g. unconscious, bound, paralyzed) makes it impossible to make the save.
On the other hand, if no such effort is required (such as in the case of resisting Bleed), then unconsciousness won't affect your ability to make the save.
It depends on the circumstances of the save. If avoiding the attack (and thus making the saving throw) requires conscious physical or mental effort on the part of the target, then being in a situation where you can't make that effort (e.g. unconscious, bound, paralyzed) makes it impossible to make the save.
On the other hand, if no such effort is required (such as in the case of resisting Bleed), then unconsciousness won't affect your ability to make the save.
The spell says it's a
range: close
target: 1 living creature
duration: instant
There is no need for an attack roll, it just happens. So the target can't really "avoid" the attack anyhow.
p. 249 where the spell can be found.
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It depends on the circumstances of the save. If avoiding the attack (and thus making the saving throw) requires conscious physical or mental effort on the part of the target, then being in a situation where you can't make that effort (e.g. unconscious, bound, paralyzed) makes it impossible to make the save.
On the other hand, if no such effort is required (such as in the case of resisting Bleed), then unconsciousness won't affect your ability to make the save.
The spell says it's a
range: close
target: 1 living creature
duration: instantThere is no need for an attack roll, it just happens. So the target can't really "avoid" the attack anyhow.
p. 249 where the spell can be found.
...?
The saving through isn't based on the person seeing or avoiding the attack. The spell makes you bleed. The saving throw is to see if the body's natural healing abilities (platelets, we're looking at you here) manage to keep the bleeding from starting. If the saving throw succeeds, his blood coagulated enough to keep the effect from happening. If he fails, the body was just too stressed.
Or his innate resistance to harmful magic (Will save) prevented the intruding energies from affecting him.
Oh? Is it a Wil Save? I thought it was a Fort Save.
Be darned, you are correct sir. It is a Will save. That honestly doesn't make any sense. I think it should be a Fort save, to represent the body trying to avoid death.
The saving through isn't based on the person seeing or avoiding the attack. The spell makes you bleed. The saving throw is to see if the body's natural healing abilities (platelets, we're looking at you here) manage to keep the bleeding from starting.
It strikes me as silly, if instead of the target making the save the *blood* makes the save. So if a person is hit by poison, the liver makes the save instead of the target? Isn't this rather complicated?
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It strikes me as silly, if instead of the target making the save the *blood* makes the save. So if a person is hit by poison, the liver makes the save instead of the target? Isn't this rather complicated?
I think you're thinking too much about this. A saving throw isn't a conscious action, it's a natural reflex. The same way you don't actively move your hand when you burn it, you reflexively pull your hand away from the heat source.
Well I started thinking about this. The rules say something about casters able to cast 0 level spells infinite amount of times. Since bleed also deals 1 point of damage, this would allow infinite amounts of damage 1/round against, well, helpless characters. (which is kind of overpowered)
So that's why I think there's a saving throw involved.
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Theoretically infinite amounts of damage. It only works on creatures already in the negatives. So at best you can cause damage equal to their CON score over an equal number of rounds. And if you already have him in the negatives, it's kind of pointless to use outside of combat since you can just go stab him to death then. It's the same as the paladin smite evil arguement. Yeah you can get hundreds of extra points of damage against up to seven opponents. So long as they stay alive anyway.
It strikes me as silly, if instead of the target making the save the *blood* makes the save. So if a person is hit by poison, the liver makes the save instead of the target? Isn't this rather complicated?
The saving through isn't based on the person seeing or avoiding the attack. The spell makes you bleed. The saving throw is to see if the body's natural healing abilities (platelets, we're looking at you here) manage to keep the bleeding from starting.
Uhm... no... that's precisely what happens. If you poison someone, their liver is what's attempting to keep the poison from taking affect. Just like the blood is trying to keep the bleeding from occuring (at least, it should be).
The body's natural internal defenses (antibodies, liver, platelets) are represented by the character's FORTITUDE save. A fortitude save doesn't care if the person is conscious or not, because as long as they are alive, the body tries to recover.
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Well I started thinking about this. The rules say something about casters able to cast 0 level spells infinite amount of times. Since bleed also deals 1 point of damage, this would allow infinite amounts of damage 1/round against, well, helpless characters. (which is kind of overpowered)
Unlike a simple coup de grace?
The only time you don't get a saving throw is when you are dead as you are treated as an object. In all other situations you get a saving throw. If you are tied up and unable to move at all and a Fireball goes off you get a Save against. Now your Dex is considered 0 so its at a -5 penalty, but you still get one.
If their where situations where you didn't get a saving throw those would be listed in the combat section under Saving Throws, but their are none. Or the individual conditions like helpless would list them as well. As they don't then you always get a save.