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So, I'm writing an adventure and river travel plays an important part in the adventure. I was just looking at the chart of ships and river travel and realized there is only one ship that can travel up a river, a Galley.
I know that dhows in Arabia and Egypt were able to travel at 10 knots with a good wind, as were many other kinds of sailing riverboats. We know ancient Egyptian boats sailed upriver with little trouble.
In RPGs rivers seem to be a one way highway, downriver only, with almost no possible travel upriver.
I also realized the speeds for sailing ships seem very low. Caravels (the kinds that Columbus sailed) had average speeds of 4.5 miles an hour with top speeds of just over 9 miles an hour. I assume the charts are making the assumption that there are still winds at least 50% of the time and the ship is not moving at all during that time. That seems awfully excessive.
So are we to assume that upriver travel does not take place? That towns upriver build barges and boats that travel downriver and then are dismantled and carried back by wagons or just destroy them when they reach the river's mouth?
If this is true, then there are isolated cities in many locations that are nearly impossible to get to. Lamasara in Osirion, for example, is essentially an isolated city with virtually no contact with any one any where. It would even be debatable whether sea travel could get to Sothis at all as it appears to be at the mouth of the River Sphinx. The ships could get close, but might not be able to go all the way.
In Taldor it describes sleek boats used to patrol the Sellen river- seems odd that Taldor would build so many ships that are based out of the Isle of Arenway, just to have them patrol a tiny part of the river. It also says ships stop at the Isle of Arenway so they can be blessed before going through the Verduan Forest- which makes no sense because the ship will have had to pass THROUGH the Forest to GET to the Isle. Why stop to be blessed for the trip through the forest when you have already been through the forest and you cannot go back?
I know this may seem trivial but it really destroys two major portions of the adventure. So, do we ignore the rules for sailing upriver? Or just assume all ships going up river are massive galleys creeping along at 1 mile an hour at best?
So, I'm writing an adventure and river travel plays an important part in the adventure. I was just looking at the chart of ships and river travel and realized there is only one ship that can travel up a river, a Galley.
I know that dhows in Arabia and Egypt were able to travel at 10 knots with a good wind, as were many other kinds of sailing riverboats. We know ancient Egyptian boats sailed upriver with little trouble.
In RPGs rivers seem to be a one way highway, downriver only, with almost no possible travel upriver.
I also realized the speeds for sailing ships seem very low. Caravels (the kinds that Columbus sailed) had average speeds of 4.5 miles an hour with top speeds of just over 9 miles an hour. I assume the charts are making the assumption that there are still winds at least 50% of the time and the ship is not moving at all during that time. That seems awfully excessive.
So are we to assume that upriver travel does not take place? That towns upriver build barges and boats that travel downriver and then are dismantled and carried back by wagons or just destroy them when they reach the river's mouth?
If this is true, then there are isolated cities in many locations that are nearly impossible to get to. Lamasara in Osirion, for example, is essentially an isolated city with virtually no contact with any one any where. It would even be debatable whether sea travel could get to Sothis at all as it appears to be at the mouth of the River Sphinx. The ships could get close, but might not be able to go all the way.
In Taldor it describes sleek boats used to patrol the Sellen river- seems odd that Taldor would build so many ships that are based out of the Isle of Arenway, just to have them patrol a tiny part of the river. It also says ships stop at the Isle of Arenway so they can be blessed before going through the Verduan Forest- which makes no sense because the ship will have had to pass THROUGH the Forest to GET to the Isle. Why stop to be blessed for the trip through the forest...
Any oared ship should be able to travel upriver. A galley or a viking longship or warboat come to immediate mind. A broad. slow river might allow the use of sails on smaller ships as well. Lakes are good for that as well. As for barges, they get towed upriver. Usually by mule or oxen teams. Rivers that see barge traffic should have tow paths along the shore. Canals and locks may be necessary in areas. This might depend on how civilized / settled an area is. Smaller rivercraft can use poles as well as tows (as in the American riverine experience). In a fantasy setting the possibility of alternate means of upriver movement are possible, either magical or creatures / aquatic races. Of course, the further from civilization, the less commercial traffic and the riskier the travel would be.
Some thoughts. This is pretty much how upriver travel works in my world. Hope it helps. If I can finish wading through my grading (I'm taking a break) I'll see what else I can come up with.
*edit* I'm not familiar with Golarion, I have my own setting, so I can't comment on it's geography.
Expanding on the post above :
Real world methods
Rowing/Poling : Many ships (usually smaller for rivers, say 5 to 30 feet, with longer ones usually flat bottom, like barges) were paddled or poled. Sails really don't work well on rivers, overhanging trees catch them, and surrounding environment shapes the winds and makes them change direction rapidly. So poles and paddles were used. Poles more often than paddles with larger ships and barges.
Towing : There were often sections of the rivers where the current was too fast, or the bottom to deep for poling or rowing. So what you'd get is horses or oxen on both sides of the river. A big rope from the yolk on both sides of the river (sometimes single animals, sometimes pairs) and they would tow it up the river past the hard to reach points.
Portage : Yep, there were places where you couldn't get past the rapids going upstream, or there was a waterfall. You'd get much smaller boats (5-10 feet) that would get portaged around. Another alternative was a boat above and below the obstacle. Then you'd get a portage town spring up. Animals, carts etc would haul cargo from the bottom of the obstruction to the top, and the cargo would go on a different boat.
Paddlewheel : If the tech is advanced enough, a wood or coal boiler with a paddlewheel works really good, with towing and poling/paddling as a backup.
Magical Methods
Spirits : Elementals can work really well, either wind (with small sails) or water (literally moving the ship through the water). Alternately, if the tech is advanced enough, a fire elemental can run a boiler and turn a paddlewheel.
Aquatics : Aquatics could probably be paid to haul a ship up river against the current the entire way, with heavy leather straps from the bow leading under the water. This has an advantage that the ship will almost never hit a submerged log or other obstacle.
Portable hole/bag modifiations : Instead of portable holes and bags, a ship could be constructed to be 10 foot long, but with built in portable holes in the hull (facing inside obviously), so a 10 foot craft could fit a LOT of cargo despite it's small size. The limitation here is the size of the cargo needing to fit in the hole. But produce or other small goods could easily be carried upstream by one guy this way.
Finished grading. I was going to add a bit to my post above, but mdt has pretty much hit it.
Magical Methods
You forgot to mention Shrink Item. A small ship filled with shrunken goods would be far more viable and less expensive than a portable hole. Also less attractive to theives because the portable hole is attractive to steal in itself.
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This isn't really a problem with setting. This applies to Golation, Forgotten Realms, Mystara, and home brew games as well. It's a mechanic problem
I had planned on using many of these ideas myself, but then realized that even the rowed and poled boats are unable to generate enough speed to overcome the speed of rivers.
The rules list river currents as 3 miles per hour, and the only boat capable of generating speed that can overcome that is the galley. Even rowed and poled boats are incapable of overcoming a river's current. That is my biggest problem. Even a Viking Longship can manage to remain stationary and cannot make headway against a river.
Perhaps river travel is only possible in certain areas of rivers where the current slows down, but most of the river is unpassable upriver?
This is actually the case IRL also. There are a lot of rivers where sailboats aren't practical.
In any case the speeds on the ships are intended to be average speeds per day not max speed. I would just assume most of the ships move at 1/2 speed upriver and 1.5x speed downriver. If it's a faster river then it doesn't matter how fast they are unless they are towed they aren't going upriver.
This isn't really a problem with setting. This applies to Golation, Forgotten Realms, Mystara, and home brew games as well. It's a mechanic problem
I had planned on using many of these ideas myself, but then realized that even the rowed and poled boats are unable to generate enough speed to overcome the speed of rivers.
The rules list river currents as 3 miles per hour, and the only boat capable of generating speed that can overcome that is the galley. Even rowed and poled boats are incapable of overcoming a river's current. That is my biggest problem. Even a Viking Longship can manage to remain stationary and cannot make headway against a river.
Perhaps river travel is only possible in certain areas of rivers where the current slows down, but most of the river is unpassable upriver?
The speed of a river can't be subtracted directly from the speed of a ship / boat IIRC. The same architecture that allows a ship to push / slide through the water helps the ship reduce the effect of the force the current is applying against it. I don't have the particulars laying around, but if I dig it up I'll try to post something. Anybody currently near a college library that includes naval / marine engineering / architecture might be able to help...
*edit* I do recall the theoretical speed of a hull is 1.34 times the square root of the waterline hull length (metric IIRC)... about 9.5 knots for your typical Athenian galley IIRC. And then there is the material of the hull and drag depending on the depth the hull. I'm not sure how the game speed of watercraft relates to this theoretical maximum (which is usually not met as I recall, depending on the propulsion used). So, who has time for a research paper? I'll give extra credit :D
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This is actually the case IRL also. There are a lot of rivers where sailboats aren't practical.
In any case the speeds on the ships are intended to be average speeds per day not max speed. I would just assume most of the ships move at 1/2 speed upriver and 1.5x speed downriver. If it's a faster river then it doesn't matter how fast they are unless they are towed they aren't going upriver.
Very very true. Often times sailboats don't work well at all in a river. The two rivers I was thinking of using in the adventure would lend themselves to it though :)
I think I will run with this idea. It is easier :)
Though I am interested in more complex solutions on an academic basis :) Purely for the knowledge :)
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The speed of a river can't be subtracted directly from the speed of a ship / boat IIRC. The same architecture that allows a ship to push / slide through the water helps the ship reduce the effect of the force the current is applying against it. I don't have the particulars laying around, but if I dig it up I'll try to post something. Anybody currently near a college library that includes naval / marine engineering / architecture might be able to help...
*edit* I do recall the theoretical speed of a hull is 1.34 times the square root of the waterline hull length (metric IIRC)... about 9.5 knots for your typical Athenian galley IIRC. And then there is the material of the hull and drag depending on the depth the hull. I'm not sure how the game speed of watercraft relates to this theoretical maximum (which is usually not met as I recall, depending on the propulsion used). So, who has time for a research paper? I'll give extra credit :D
All beyond me! But I am always willing to be educated :)
Magical MethodsYou forgot to mention Shrink Item. A small ship filled with shrunken goods would be far more viable and less expensive than a portable hole. Also less attractive to theives because the portable hole is attractive to steal in itself.
That's a lot of overhead though. You've got to cast shrink item on every piece of cargo, which means your keeping a bunch of mages on hire, and how are you keeping the item shrunk on the trip?
The portable holes would be manufactured as part of the ship, not just tossed on it. So you'd have to bust the ship apart to get them. Doable, but easily could damage them as well. Not easy to slip into a pocket though.
All beyond me! But I am always willing to be educated :)The speed of a river can't be subtracted directly from the speed of a ship / boat IIRC. The same architecture that allows a ship to push / slide through the water helps the ship reduce the effect of the force the current is applying against it. I don't have the particulars laying around, but if I dig it up I'll try to post something. Anybody currently near a college library that includes naval / marine engineering / architecture might be able to help...
*edit* I do recall the theoretical speed of a hull is 1.34 times the square root of the waterline hull length (metric IIRC)... about 9.5 knots for your typical Athenian galley IIRC. And then there is the material of the hull and drag depending on the depth the hull. I'm not sure how the game speed of watercraft relates to this theoretical maximum (which is usually not met as I recall, depending on the propulsion used). So, who has time for a research paper? I'll give extra credit :D
Ship top speed in pre-steam eras was mostly a question of large rigging (sails and masts), open waters to make optimum use of a strong winds for any extended periods of time, large crews ( to handle the large sails with exerted enormous mechanical stress on the hull's structure) and a hydro-dynamically effective underwater shape. Some effective and sturdily built control-surfaces, e.g. the rudder(s) were required besides, a notorious weakness of many builds.
None of which your average medieval vessel has. Actually, it was a field not even remotely explored in any scientific way, ship-building being undertaken in the vein of handed down, well-worn traditional shapes based on locale experiences with little factual understanding of the forces or built-in limits involved.
No real life dhow would have ever have sailed at the nine knots (nautical miles/hour) you quoted without the most exceptional circumstance applying for a "once in a lifetime" ride - and very probably being pulled and torn to pieces by the forces required and exerted on the sails and cordage, sending her crew , passenegrs and cargo to a watery grave.
Neither would the sturdier built caravels have achieved or even maintained these speeds except for a few fleeting moments surfing down large waves in high winds... and possibly with similar results
Again, all of it under conditions which do not happen on rivers, especially not upstream^^
As a quick aside concerning your musing about the 50% "no winds" time you estimated - actually sailing craft were laying at anchor for long periods either because winds were too low (and they might drift away from their destination while waiting for stronger winds), to high, threatening a ship wreck or simply from the wrong direction. Or even, in reasonable winds from the proper direction because visibility was impaired (at night, in rain etc.) and navigational hazards and markers could not be safely made out, making running aground or sailing by an important landmark likely and depending upon the weather and region, possibly a deadly peril. And running out of sight was definitely not recommended - since the magnetic compass was neither very widespread, nor very accurate where available, and easily dragged off-north by a large metallic mass standing close to it, a not universally understood principle at that time. As a result, everybody prudent stuck to the coastline, with all the associated difficulties and obstructions caused by that blanket of navigational security.
Navigation, only advanced in the 18th century with modern chronometers and sextants, was very primitive (off the factual position by several dozens, if not more miles if not within sight of land, depending upon the skill and calculating powers of the navigator) , charts were notoriously unreliable even if available, and on rivers, the hazards shifted location and shape over the course of the seasons, depending on water levels, driftwood, strength of currents and man-made obstacles.
Upriver travel beyond the first bridge (usually at the first port on the river) was limited to smallish craft of at most 40' in size, narrow in build and made for carrying capacity, not speed. And it moved upriver either by being trailed through teams of oxen, under smallish auxiliary sails, oars (and only a few of those as well - no freighter had or could afford a large crew ) or by poling. The upside was, you could far more easily carry large loads, but not at any speed at all. If you wanted that, you took a horse or a stagecoach.
As for the "maximum speed" of watercraft. For the ship-types build in and up until the early 20the century, the formula is square-root of length at the waterline in meters x 2.43 = maximum speed in knots (nautical miles/hour).
Thus a craft of roughly 36meters/110' in length (a smallish frigate of the 18th century, far larger and more capably rigged than the caravels and dhows mentioned) would have maximum possible speed through the water of 6x 2,43 = 14,58 knots. Now, even heavily crewed Royal Navy frigates, with three masts carrying 4 layers of sails each, could only be coaxed to speeds of eleven to twelve knots under very heavy winds, running downwind carrying far more sails than was recommended by the tenets of prudent seamanship.
And still, this falls short a flat 20% below the maximum theoretically possible top-speed, could be achieved under very specific conditions, with a huge crew to handle the vessel and it, being a millitary craft, not being loaded down with cargo. Plus, hopefully being well mainatined, with strong cordage, clean bottoms and strong timbers taking up the strain imposed.
Columbus' "Santa Maria", a typcial caravel might have a theoretical hydrodynamic limit of about 10-11 knots... but it would be very lucky if it ever made 7 knots for any amount of time, and that under highly advantageous conditions. Why ? Because she had only a fraction of the sails, smaller in size to boot, could handle them less effectively, her structure being designed less resilient and her underwater surfaces being gunged up by algae, barnacles and miscellaneous growths.
And even beyond that, such speeds were possible on the high seas, but not on a river or anything but the largest of interior lakes. as for rivers, the speed attainable is the speed of the vessel through the water (!), not over ground (aka, the actual distance covered), as currents may simply sweep it back or sideways, making the less than impressive travel speed of a medieval river craft even less impressive upstream.
Rivers only became high-roads for extensive inland (read "upriver" ) travel after the advent of steam-power in the early 19th century. before that... well^^
hope this helps some, despite being a tad lengthy
More portable hole stuff
Ehh... or your competitor could just have a mage firebomb your ship and you are out a huge expense.
I generally don't play dungeons and mercantile so I don't worry about it too much
So, I'm writing an adventure and river travel plays an important part in the adventure. I was just looking at the chart of ships and river travel and realized there is only one ship that can travel up a river, a Galley.
I know that dhows in Arabia and Egypt were able to travel at 10 knots with a good wind, as were many other kinds of sailing riverboats. We know ancient Egyptian boats sailed upriver with little trouble.
In RPGs rivers seem to be a one way highway, downriver only, with almost no possible travel upriver. (...)
I too prefer the downstream = speed x1.5, upstream = 1/2 speed interpretation better than the +3/-3 mph. I'm pretty sure some Forgotten Realms material states so words for words (There's a paragraph on river travel in the Silver Marches book (3.0) from FR, I'll check it out tonight).
Historical evidences show that the Nile was navigated by sail boats, as many Chinese rivers. Rivers that are important enough to be featured on a large-scaled map are generally strait enough, deep enough and wide enough to be navigable by sail boats, but my experience in rivers applies only to North America. Before the trains, rivers were the highways...
I know that most European rivers had tow paths built during the Roman empire and throughout the medieval era, so I guess that towing was preferable to sailing for some reason...
I know that most European rivers had tow paths built during the Roman empire and throughout the medieval era, so I guess that towing was preferable to sailing for some reason...
If the prevailing winds go downstream then towing or rowing is the only way to get upstream.
lots of interesting stuff
good read!
I know that most European rivers had tow paths built during the Roman empire and throughout the medieval era, so I guess that towing was preferable to sailing for some reason...If the prevailing winds go downstream then towing or rowing is the only way to get upstream.
Fair enough. Dept may also be a problem. And even IF upstream sailing was possible, tow teams would probably be more efficient regardless of the conditions. The only thing is that those paths would require some basic maintenance, never mind being made in the first place. This requires a certain level of civilization and technology, which wild parts of the land may not have...
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A lot of the reading I have done about ancient Egypt indicates they did use sails on ships in the Nile. Also used oarsmen of course.
From what I have read about ancient Egypt they did travel up and down river with sails. They also used oarsmen when the winds were too calm. I don't know for a fact, but it seems even ancient Egyptians understood something about tacking which will allow you to go in other directions besides just the way the wind blows.
I do know that navigation was accurate enough in the 1300s for merchants to get rich off of cargo ships, and then in the 1400s and later they could sail across the oceans. Maybe not accurate by our definition but accurate enough to conquer continents and bring back incredible wealth.
As far as sailing upriver, I know that rowboats can do it. I know canoes can do it. I also know that even before steam there was a wealth of travel up and down the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. Both ways. And they didn't have crews for hauling the boats up river on the shores.
I know the boats used by Lewis & Clark were not steam powered or gasoline driven. And I know they went upriver. I live within miles of the Missouri and before engineers got a hold of the river, it was about three miles across in this part of Missouri. It was much shallower, yes, but deep enough for smaller boats, but not big galleys.
I know it is not easy boating upriver against a river's current, but I know for a fact it has been done through out history even back to ancient times with sails, oars and poles.
So, I'm not sure I buy the whole thing that boats just couldn't do it without shore crews. There is quite simply too much evidence to the contrary.
Regardless, in the game, the numbers given, indicate that it is not possible for boats to sail, or be poled or use oars to go upriver. And we know that it was possible and done.
I came across some information about keel boats on the Missourri River in the 1800s. A keel boat was 40-80 feet long with a beam of 15-20 feet. They were "cigar shaped" and had a carrying capacity of 15-50 tons. Speed isn't specifically mentioned but the miles per day (upriver) was -- 15 miles per day being a good speed. These boats were poled or rowed btw, up a river with a current of about 5-10 miles per hour. Presumably being drawn up to the shore or anchored when not being poled along (i.e. at night). Cordelling was another method of propulsion. It involved using a cordelle, or cable, about 300 yards long, affixed to a tree / etc. and hauling the boat along towards it. Wash, rinse and repeat. Six miles a day was a good speed by this method. Good stuff and evocative of river travel in any pre-steam power setting. Linked:
http://home.att.net/~mman/Keelboat.htm
Historical Missourri River currents link:
http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2004/01/20.htm
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OK, finally found my copy of Stormwrack. Been looking for that forever. Just had to get serious to find it. Too many darn books! lol
I like their system much better. Current is broken down into four categories: Light, Vigorous, Dangerous, Irresistible.
Most rivers will flow at Light most of the time. Vigorous is a full-flowing river such as light flooding. Dangerous is likened to moderate rapids. Irresistible is described as the most violent rapids.
For crunch it indicates a Light current is 5' per round which is about .5 miles per hour. A Vigorous current is 10-30' per round which is about 1-3 miles per hour. Dangerous is listed as 40-60' per round and about 4-6 mph. Irresistible is listed as 70-90' per round and about 7-9 mph.
Ship speeds listed later in the book are more realistic then. Even rowboats can make it upriver in normal circumstances.
Should have found that darn book sooner :)
A lot of the reading I have done about ancient Egypt indicates they did use sails on ships in the Nile. Also used oarsmen of course.
From what I have read about ancient Egypt they did travel up and down river with sails. They also used oarsmen when the winds were too calm. I don't know for a fact, but it seems even ancient Egyptians understood something about tacking which will allow you to go in other directions besides just the way the wind blows.
Please note that the Nile is a bit of an unusual river. It's wide and the current is slow. It also winds through mostly desert environments, where wind is common and there's little in the way of terrain to block or redirect the wind.
This makes sails a very viable solution on this river. While there were palms and such on the sides of the Nile, those types of trees are long with a bushy top, and so they don't block the wind or threaten sails.
A lot of the reading I have done about ancient Egypt indicates they did use sails on ships in the Nile. Also used oarsmen of course.
From what I have read about ancient Egypt they did travel up and down river with sails. They also used oarsmen when the winds were too calm. I don't know for a fact, but it seems even ancient Egyptians understood something about tacking which will allow you to go in other directions besides just the way the wind blows.
Tacking requires a lot of side to side movement perpendicular to the wind so it's use depends a lot on how wide the river is. The Nile or the Columbia probably fine. The Sacramento not so much. MIssissippi would be cool.
I'm kind of used to the smaller slightly faster sort of rivers so that colors my perceptions :)
I think Lewis and Clark used small boats, mostly lots of canoes and they did a lot of portaging.
A lot of the reading I have done about ancient Egypt indicates they did use sails on ships in the Nile. Also used oarsmen of course.
From what I have read about ancient Egypt they did travel up and down river with sails. They also used oarsmen when the winds were too calm. I don't know for a fact, but it seems even ancient Egyptians understood something about tacking which will allow you to go in other directions besides just the way the wind blows.
I do know that navigation was accurate enough in the 1300s for merchants to get rich off of cargo ships, and then in the 1400s and later they could sail across the oceans. Maybe not accurate by our definition but accurate enough to conquer continents and bring back incredible wealth.
As far as sailing upriver, I know that rowboats can do it. I know canoes can do it. I also know that even before steam there was a wealth of travel up and down the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. Both ways. And they didn't have crews for hauling the boats up river on the shores.
I know the boats used by Lewis & Clark were not steam powered or gasoline driven. And I know they went upriver. I live within miles of the Missouri and before engineers got a hold of the river, it was about three miles across in this part of Missouri. It was much shallower, yes, but deep enough for smaller boats, but not big galleys.
I know it is not easy boating upriver against a river's current, but I know for a fact it has been done through out history even back to ancient times with sails, oars and poles.
So, I'm not sure I buy the whole thing that boats just couldn't do it without shore crews. There is quite simply too much evidence to the contrary.
Regardless, in the game, the numbers given, indicate that it is not possible for boats to sail, or be poled or use oars to go upriver. And we know that it was possible and done.
For one, all the river you mention are the widest and water-richest on their respective (part of the) continent.
River current speed is usually inversely proportional to the river width - facilitating travel by sail, because you need the space for tacking upwind. The craft will need to sail at an angle of a minimum 60° off the direction of the speed and suffer downwind drift from the wind in addition to drift from the river current.
But as for the Nile, travel by sail is still pretty slow (you can watch these rivercraft in use even today - and since they hardly trail (in the material available to me) a visible wake, their speed through the water is very low. Then again, so is the sped of the Nile's current below Assuan.
Also, note that in Egypts climate, stronger winds are rare inland, unless they happen as actual sandstorms. Travel will be slow, but probably more comfortable than by camel through parching desert landscape. Which basically was the alternative...
As for merchants "getting rich" from merchant ships from the 13th century onwards - that was mostly due, because even if a single ship from a small squadron of three or more returned safely, the profit margin from its cargo was so huge, that even the loss of any other vessels on said journey was probably compensated for. If all you ships got home safely, lucky you. One also tends not to read about ship-owners going bankrupt because their ships disappered .. simply because the loss of social standing and success meant them diappearing from the local chronicles. Be assured, lots of ships floundered and were lost at sea - the Mediterranean is full of their sunken wrecks, and so are the coastal waters of Europe, the Arabian peninsula and southern Asia. Loss rates were easily up to one third of the ships (!) on the more lucrative trade routes, less so in favourable seasons, but more with the coming of winter and the early days of spring
And navigation on rivers even in these days is still complicated, since the particular hazards of river travel, sand-bars, submerged structures and the larger flotsam change constantly. Have it rain in the uplands hills where the river flows from for half a week, and you will notice currents increasing, levels rising accordingly. Stuff will be moved, then settle again someplace else when the flood subsides.
River pilots were and still are common even on the largest of rivers, and one of the main reasons the iconic Mississipi steamboats were built so wide and with less effective paddle-wheels was to accommodate a shallow draft, minimizing the hindrance through shallows encountered. And after a good flood, be certain that any sand-bars will have shifted some - the river markers over here in Europe are either constantly updated and re-arranged or the channels re-dug where freighters use the rivers as transport roads. And the river travel for example on the Nile was clearly divided into two stages - below the cataracts at Assuan, and that above this, since watercraft could not easily pass that set of obstacles.
If you care, I could look up the average travel speed of Feluccas (the vessels used on these rivers), got the stuff at hand in the bookshelf
As for Lewis and Clark - I would need to reread my sources on them, but the crafts used in their journey were either paddled (and usually in the shallower waters along the shores less affected by currents ) or small craft of perhaps a maximum 40' length ?
Meaning they could carry perhaps a four or five metric tons maximum if maximum load ? Not really effective for cargo, that would be somewhere around 16 barrels of wine or less than a cubic meters of iron in ingots. And did not feature anything like decks, cabins, superstructure or even creature comforts ?
One can avoid the stronger currents in the middle of the river with small craft, but unfortunately the deeper and shippable channels are right where the current is strongest (and carries away the bottom sand and silt. If you go canoeing or frolic around in dinghies on the Elbe, which is half a mile from my house, you are well advised to stay away from the the center of the river if you try to make headway upstream... but is is easily down close in to the shore.
Besides, Lewis and Clarks journey was a voyage of exploration, driven by a sense of curiosity and discovery, not for moentary gains. They were not trying to establish or even run a trade route, nor bringing back wares lucrative enough to re-finance the expenditure for the journey. You may carry or haul a small craft over or around a river obstacle, but a ladden cargo-craft ? methinks not.
Let me ask a question - do you require (general or scenario specific) rules for upriver-travel ? Or are you just interested in the historical "lay-of-the-land"
generally, assume a river will feature a current between half a mile an hour to something like 3 miles an hour (very strong, but I know a few shipable rivers with currents of that strength)
Subtract this from the speed of the vessel to determine distance actually traveled. Have Skill rolls (craft boating, survival(perhaps with a focus on rivers) play into this, reducing the effects of currents by some degree, but not totally. have profession : Navigator Perception and Survival rolls deal with the hassles of sandbars and other submerged obstacles. On rivers the size of the Mississippi, the Yang-Tse or Amazon estuary, add navigation rolls for picking the proper branch of the river etc.
Years ago my gaming group had a chat about magic and its possible use. We were going off on the tangent that magic use takes the place of technology what would the world look like?
Part of the discussion revolved around water travel and the conclusion was that no one would bother with rivers. Magic is fairly common and with a combination of summoned earth elementals, move earth, dig, stone shape, mud to rock, spades of colossal excavation, friendly/charmed giants, etc. there was no reason why a system of canals couldn't be easily built.
Coupled with golem paddleboats or just towing the barges stuff could be moved around without problem.
Technology has only advanced to overcome problems as in the real world we haven't got any of the above we had to develop "mundane" solutions to our problems.
In a civilisation with magic, that would take place of technology, advances in the world would show that. I still find it a bit strange that magic use hasn't had a huge impact on the worlds of Greyhawk, etc. that they are still based around pseudo-medieval culture and the impact of magic is almost nonexistant.
Years ago my gaming group had a chat about magic and its possible use. We were going off on the tangent that magic use takes the place of technology what would the world look like?
Part of the discussion revolved around water travel and the conclusion was that no one would bother with rivers. Magic is fairly common and with a combination of summoned earth elementals, move earth, dig, stone shape, mud to rock, spades of colossal excavation, friendly/charmed giants, etc. there was no reason why a system of canals couldn't be easily built.
Coupled with golem paddleboats or just towing the barges stuff could be moved around without problem.
Technology has only advanced to overcome problems as in the real world we haven't got any of the above we had to develop "mundane" solutions to our problems.
In a civilisation with magic, that would take place of technology, advances in the world would show that. I still find it a bit strange that magic use hasn't had a huge impact on the worlds of Greyhawk, etc. that they are still based around pseudo-medieval culture and the impact of magic is almost nonexistant.
Essentially because magic is limited to a few powerful people, many of who are not excited about building canals and golem padelboats or portable holes in the bottom of ships. There are some great works in golarian, most of them are historic from the days of the Azlant.
Eberron is a world where magic is more prevalent, exactly the sort of thing you envision.